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Six years ago we were heading to the knock out stage and eventually a second finals with AC Milan in Champs League.

And thanks to that, we were able to attract top class talent to come here. Then Tom Hicks showed up and proceeded to bleed the club dry, telling all and sundry that if they came here and accepted a pay cut, that good things were around the corner, and promise, honest, wouldn't lie to you guv, we'll be bringing in more world class players and you'll get a much better contract. And we saw how that worked out. The world class players, sick of being lied to and treated like shite got fed up and legged it. New owners came in, said from the start that they weren't rich sheikhs, but still let us spend over £110m on players in 2011, the majority of whom weren't even worth half of what we paid for them. (And it was going on before that, with a combined £40m spunked on Alberto Aquilani and Robbie Keane.)

So SoueysTasch is right. We've had several years of utter fucking incompetence in the transfer market since that night in Athens, as well as three of those years seeing us owned by crooks. That's not an easy thing to right. We're in the middle of the table, scrapping in the UEFA Cup, and those who think that flinging squillions of pounds around as a way to fix it is living in cuckooland. The transfer budget of Man City isn't there, the notion of silly wages isn't there, nor is the lure of living in a glamourous major city, nor is the promise of playing in the Champions League. If we want to get back to the big boys' table, we have to do it with nous and hard work. Buying intelligently in the market, developing our own players, and most importantly making sure every player in a red jersey is putting in 100% day in, day out, working towards the cause.

I think is time, while we are in this situation, to remember just a few things:

 

The passion

 

 

The Fun

 

 

 

 

The class

 

 

 

 

 

The man

 

BANNED: Macedonian Red
REASON: Allowed back on a very short leash, after promising to change his ways. Those ways never changed...

 

Flanagan (1) Skrtel (8) Coates (4) Spearing (3) Assaidi (4) = £20m

Pacheco, Wilson and Gulacsi(?) = compensation fees.

Carra's wages will free up some fund and if we're really desperate I guess Shelvey can be sacrificed.

 

 

Seems extreme, we should just try selling him insead.

“You may think you play for Liverpool,'' he remarks. “Let me tell you now. You don’t. Until you play regularly for the first team, you are not a Liverpool player player and you should not say you are a Liverpool player. If anyone ever asks you, all you should say is one day you hope to play for Liverpool.”

There is a brief hush around the Tom Saunders Lecture Theatre at the club’s academy in Kirkby, long enough for that particular sentiment to register. For the next 40 minutes, Rodgers spells out the particular demands and sacrifices required, as the manager puts it, “to do what it takes”.

“Do you want to live the footballers’ life or live the life of a footballer?” Rodgers asks, before warning of the perils of pursuing sports cars and celebrity parties ahead of sporting excellence. This is an insight into football’s greatest fear in the modern age, where promising adolescents become millionaires before they have played 30 games. The world at their feet at 17, washed up at 21.

Liverpool urgently need to reverse a worrying trend since their academy was built 14 years ago. For many Premier League clubs, discovering and nurturing local talent is an aspiration. At Anfield, it is an obligation. Carragher retires this summer. Gerrard is 32 and asking himself how long he has left. Those two embody the current Liverpool. Someone has to redefine it when they are gone.

“It’s important for identity and this club is about identity,” says Rodgers. “All I want is good players, whether they are from Liverpool, Spain or Ireland, but I also inherently believe if you have someone from this area you will get that extra passion because this is their club. You want those from your own family with you.

 

“Carra and Stevie would have always got to where they are. You need good people to help you get there quicker, but it’s always the players’ responsibility. Everyone here needs to understand the dirty work to get there.”

The senior coaches and players have spent the day coaching at The Academy. It may seem nothing especially unusual, first team staff taking time to underline the requirements to those coming through. In a turbulent recent history at Liverpool, it is unprecedented.

Luis Suárez and Gerrard are playing five-a-side with the eight-year-olds, the Liverpool captain hosting a question-and-answer session of his own. Pepe Reina is trying to stop the ambitious under-12s beating him in a penalty shoot-out.

Every other first-team player is involved at some level on site, joining in the small-sided games with each of 198 of the academy playing staff aged eight to 21, and embracing a mentoring programme Rodgers is pushing.

“We’ve never done anything like this before,” Carragher observes, his son among those enjoying the coaching sessions with the likes of Gerrard and Suárez.

The manager also spoke at length to parents to offer a reminder that whatever issues they encounter as they seek the best for their son they should approach him or his staff. Such is the inclusiveness he is encouraging, last week he arranged for under-14 players to be ballboys in the Europa League game against Zenit St Petersburg.

“We were meant to be in Dubai having a break this week,” says Rodgers. “I cancelled it after we lost to Oldham and told the players we were coming here instead. I couldn’t get it out of my mind the idea of players walking around Dubai after we had gone out of the Cup. I said 'no’. You have to earn those rewards. This is more important.”

It was not so long ago different areas of this football club were perceived as factions rather than departments. Liverpool’s academy was the first purpose-built facility of its type in 1999, the aim then precisely as of now – to maintain a conveyor belt that produced Robbie Fowler, Michael Owen, Steve McManaman and Carragher.

There have been an assortment of good professionals who have come through since, but nothing comparable to the 'centre of excellence’ crop who pre-dated the move to Kirkby. Even Gerrard had barely spent time here before being summoned to Melwood.

It is a moment of symbolism when the current academy director, Frank McParland, introduces Rodgers to his development squad as 'the boss’. During the Gérard Houllier era and most of Rafael Benítez’s reign, there was only friction. They would go years without stepping into the place, no deference considered necessary from the academy director to the manager. Those who worked under successive regimes do not only see a different relationship, but a different club.

“We are one club compared to what it was then,” says McParland, who took on his role in 2009. “There are clear lines of communication. The relationship offers the players a pathway. It’s the best time there has been in terms of that relationship.”

This season, the edict was issued that from the under-nines up, the fluid, passing style and formation of the first team was to be replicated.

“When I came in I sold the owners that idea so that if it doesn’t work out for me, at least you bring in a different manager who wants to play the same style and then it evolves,” says Rodgers. “I want to create a shortcut so that everyone who comes in immediately understands what is expected in terms of style of play. It saves time, money and effort. This is the first year of that and, naturally, there are growing pains.

“The alternative is you have no plan. You start one way, that doesn’t work so you bring in another manager who wants it completely different. Half your squad plays one way, the other half another. All you get then is stockpiling of players. Then it’s the club’s fault if you’re not successful, not the players.

“The ideal is to bring us all together on one site. The environment here is terrific, but ultimately I’ve already advocated to the board the benefits of bringing us all together. If I’m here a long time, that’s what I want to see happen.”

Liverpool’s last flurry of world-class youth products emerged in the mid-90s before that separation. McParland was a community coach in those days, promoted in the final year of Benítez’s reign working alongside academy technical director Rodolfo Borrell, who was recruited from Barcelona’s famed La Masia Academy. The network of scouts is spread across South America as much as Speke nowadays. The aspiration is to recruit the finest global talent while keeping the Scouse heart beating.

“There will be a number of top, Liverpool-born players coming through in the next five years. I will say that for definite,” says McParland. “We’ve done well getting some through recently, but I don’t think you say they’re proper Liverpool players until they played 100 first-team games. I think we’re doing alright, but there is no massive success until you get a situation where they’re playing every week and the boss can’t drop them.

“We have a massive network of scouts working for us - impossible to put a number on it because we have contacts everywhere but you have to remember we also have to look beyond Merseyside. We want the best of the best, not just from this area, but from London and Lisbon. But we also want that team of Carraghers the crowd sings about. That genuinely is the aspiration.”

One theory is Liverpool, just like Manchester United, simply enjoyed a golden period in the mid-90s it is impossible to replicate. Look around the league, even across the continent, and few of the elite clubs are packed with academy talent.

“Throughout Europe it’s a small percentage of under-21 players in the first team,” says Rodgers. “The recurring question is whether those top players are a product of nature or nurture? There are some you see straight away and you know they’ll be a player, and then others who haven’t got quite everything but they will fight to be the best they can be. You want both.”

Borrell spent 13 years at Barcelona, Lionel Messi among the most prodigious talents he oversaw.

“Some players are born to this, but not many,” he says. “Messi, Dalglish, Cruyff and Gerrard are rare. The type of game in Spain makes it easier to produce a certain profile of player, but England has other qualities. The football here is not better or worse, just different and English football is creating better facilities and a structure which can only be positive for the future.

“We are always comparing players, but I won’t say we will have a new Steven Gerrard at Liverpool. To find another Gerrard or Carragher is difficult. I want a player with his own name, making his own impact and I’m sure that will happen.”

Rodgers concludes his speech to the development squad, some of who have already enjoyed a taste of the senior action. He tells them to honour and learn from their predecessors, but to strive to ensure the perennial quest to find the next 'big thing’ from Anfield ends with them.

“The past is incredible but we can’t be hostages to that,” says Rodgers. “Don’t be one of those sitting in the pub at 55 blaming everyone else saying how you could have been this or that. It is down to you to learn from Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher. It is down to you to make it happen.”

 

http://www.telegraph...f-the-club.html

 

It seems our club is at long last getting itself sorted out. Reading this only makes me feel positive about the future, which I have to say, doesn't happen too often after getting through an article by Bascombe.

Personally though i still think that it will go to waste.

I'd blame the player for that, in that event.

Look, a player signs for this club, then it all comes down to effort. Dirk Kuyt was far from the most gifted footballer to pull on the jersey, he wasn't blessed with blistering pace, or vast reserves of talent. But all of that was (well, often) forgotten by us, because from the second he stepped onto the pitch, to the second he stepped off it, he gave 100%, every time. EVERY time. That's, for me, what I expect from a Liverpool player, undiluted commitment to the cause.

Stewart Downing, over his entire CAREER, is a picture of mediocrity. We were linked to him 4-5 years ago, before he signed for Villa, and every single one of us howled in despair, all singing from the same hymn sheet - nowhere near good enough for the club. (And that was when he was what... 23, entering his prime years?) Lo and behold, that mediocrity was borne out until his last year for Boro, where he had his best season for them, and got his move away. Signed for Villa, and was decidedly mediocre for them until his last season, where his performances dazzled our previous administration to the point where it blinded them to the rest of his career and they only saw what he'd done the 12 months prior.

Even since he's been here, he's been the poster boy for apathy. I remember listening to the Anfield Wrap last year, and the lads were absolutely ripping him, and citing that he - literally - would put himself into positions where he couldn't receive the ball. Next game (of course he started, god forbid players get into the team based on form or work) that was sticking in my head, so I paid attention to him, and lo and behold, they were bang on. Lost count of the amount of times he wouldn't make the overlapping run cutting inside to take him out of the equation, or even just stand still next to his marker, and the other things Hope picked up on, such as pulling out of almost every 50-50 ball, and just half arsing it seemingly on principle.

He made a big song and dance about how he wanted to improve, and how the fact his goals/assists (or COMPLETE lack thereof in the league) was something he vowed to address, but compare his attitude - moaning in the press about how it's unfair he gets stick, because in actual fact the whole team was to blame - with that of Borini, who just a couple of games into his Anfield career (and arguably having already contributed more to the club in that short span than Downing has) shouldered responsibility for his lack of scoring, and has been staying behind and working on it in training. Similarly with Borini, despite being at the Euros with Italy for longer than Downing was with Engiand, he cut short his holiday and showed up early for training, while our Stewie - despite not setting foot on the pitch in Poland/Ukraine - took every minute available to him.

All of this - which is plainly obvious to one and all - would lead me to believe that a word or fifty has already been had behind closed doors. And, seemingly, it's done absolutely sod all good. To me, the mistake wasn't Rodgers calling him out in the press, it was bringing this "alleged footballer" to the club in the first place. And at £20m too. Jesus wept...

Fact: Rogers inherted a team who had a worse league finish of all last 5 managers in their first season
Fact: Rogers has one of the youngest average starting XI age of all last 5 managers in their first season
Fact: Rogers is joint 2nd for most clean sheets for 1st 17 games of all last 5 managers in their first season
Opinion: He is making the biggest transition in style of play in his first season than all last 5 managers in their first season
Opinion: He has the weakest striking options to choose from than all last 5 managers in their first season
***************************************************************************************************************************************
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*Based on 1st 17 games of their 1st full season
**Based on KD/GH first full season in charge from september

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*Based on 1st 17 games of their 1st full season

***************************************************************************************************************************************
***************************************************************************************************************************************


*Based on 1st 17 games of their 1st full season

***************************************************************************************************************************************
***************************************************************************************************************************************

BR Starting XI



Average Age    25.4545    


BR Striking Options
7    Luis Suárez        FW    
12    Daniel Pacheco        FW    
29    Fabio Borini        FW    
36    Samed Yeşil        ST    
50    Adam Morgan        ST    



*Based on 1st 17 games of his 1st full season

Previous season league finish:8th with 52 points


***************************************************************************************************************************************
***************************************************************************************************************************************
KD Starting XI



Average Age    26    

KD Striking Options
7    Luis Suárez        FW    
9    Andy Carroll        ST    
18    Dirk Kuyt        FW/RW    
39    Craig Bellamy        FW/LW    


*Based on 1st 17 games of his 1st full season

Previous season league finish:6th with 58 points

***************************************************************************************************************************************
***************************************************************************************************************************************

RHStarting XI



Average Age    27    

RH Striking Options
9    Fernando Torres ST    
9    Andy Carroll        ST    
14    Milan Jovanović        ST    
24    David N'Gog        ST



*Based on 1st 17 games of his 1st full season

Previous season league finish:7th with 63 points

***************************************************************************************************************************************
***************************************************************************************************************************************


RB Starting XI



Average Age    27.4545    

RB Striking Options
5    FW    Milan Baroš
9    FW    Djibril Cissé
19    FW    Fernando Morientes
24    FW    Florent Sinama-Pongolle
33    FW    Neil Mellor


*Based on 1st 17 games of his 1st full season
Previous season league finish:4th with 60 points

***************************************************************************************************************************************
***************************************************************************************************************************************

GH Starting XI




Average Age    24.8182    

GH Striking Options
8    FW    Emile Heskey
9    FW    Robbie Fowler
10    FW    Michael Owen
18    FW    Erik Meijer
22    FW    Titi Camara
33    FW    Jon Newby


*Based on 1st 17 games of his 1st full season
Previous season league finish:7th with 54 points

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Overall Opinion: We need to give him time to develop a team and stop spitting the dummy after a poor result

Discuss.............

Henry Winter ‏@henrywinter
Daniel Pacheco has just run across to the #lfc fans & handed his top to a kid in a wheelchair, earning huge applause from the #lfc fans

This thread had been started in the past and was lost in the great forum crash of 2012. I thought it would be worth restarting.

I've replaced the three teams relegated last season with the three promoted teams in the order they came up/went down.
 

Bolton Wanderers → Reading

Blackburn Rovers → Southampton

Wolverhampton Wanderers → West Ham United
 

Hey guys just rec'v'd an e-mail from Spirit of Shankly,

Spirit of Shankly - Liverpool Supporters Union :

"To all fans attending this weekend's game against
Aston Villa:
As you are probably aware, Aston Villa's captain, Stiliyan
Petrov, was diagnosed with acute leukaemia in March
2012. As a show of support for "Stan," Villa fans give
their skipper an ovation with applause in the 19th
minute of every home game.
This weekend, we intend to follow suit and give our own
ovation, in unity with the travelling Villa fans, for
Petrov. At the beginning of the 19th minute, we ask all
fans to show their support and applaud for one minute.
Thank you.
Liverpool Supporters Union"

So here's a request to all the Supporters who'll be going
to Anfield to do their bit in this fantastic gesture!!
YNWA!

ARD : ' Klopp doesnt have as bright a future as rodgers'

 

sozio : ' klopp is great, he has an ambigutios falithermiatim for facilitating pengestrating outcomes from football periods of intensity pertaining to middle upper false nines without the hysteria or figmentation and germestationary aquibittitle figments, rodgers isnt quite at that level, but if you correlate the expendationary trianthimum of rodgers first eight  months four days and 3 hours to gestate within the moon movements and correlate his usage and availability of a volante within the first period of fixation, then yeah, rodgers  is doing just fine'

 

showme ' im none to sure on the tittle tattle of the rattle badabing bang boobie with a zing zang ka bang damn straight, thats all im saying with a link to that damn straight up bada bing be doobie do, peace all'

 

hope in your heart ' the german model of ownership is better, whats that you say...rodgers?....whatever, its the ownership thats the key issue, and until we learn from the german ownership model we shouldnt comment on rodgers ability to coach'

 

dane 'one game at i time i said you fucking cunts!'

 

eddie ' i cant believe every single poster on tia just compared rodgers with shanks'

 

red to the bone ' dont ask me im just an epic cunt'

 

ISMF ' stats.....38 paragraphs of stats later...more stats....'

 

arminus and tfc (together) ' im canadian, were all self depreciating cunts...but dont you fucking dare call me a cunt you cunt'......tfc;'oh, and i know a venasualen bird who i dont even want to get giggy with'

 

ubermick ' settle all, the truth is, klopps a good coach and so is rodgers, and all the pinning in the world wont bring kenny back, lord help me if i have to say it again'

 

The Munich Air Crash

 

6th February 1958

 

On 6th February 1958 the airliner carrying players and backroom staff of Manchester United, plus a number of journalists and supporters, crashed in a blizzard on its third attempt to take off from Munich airport. United were returning from Belgrade where they had just beaten Red Star Belgrade in the European Cup and had stopped off at Munich for re-fuelling.Twenty-three of the forty-four passengers on board the aircraft lost their lives.

 

 

Remembering Munich: The Team Line Up For The Game [05/02/58]

 

 

Those Who Lost Their Lives:

 

Crew members:

• Captain Kenneth "Ken" Rayment, DFC. Co-pilot. Survived the crash, but suffered
  multiple injuries and died in hospital three weeks later as a result of brain damage.
• Tom Cable, cabin steward

Manchester United players:

 

• Roger Byrne - aged 28, full-back. 277 appearances, 19 goals.

"An aristocratic footballer, majestic in his movement. Roger was so fast but at the same time he controlled his movement beautifully, like Nureyev." - Sir Matt Busby

 

• Geoff Bent - aged 25, full-back. 12 appearances.

"When Geoff matured and reached his twenties there were many clubs after him but he stayed loyal. He could look after himself and was a great tackler. Roger Byrne was a consistent player and very brave, that was the reason Geoff got so few games, but he was good enough to hold a regular place in any team." - Jimmy Murphy

 

• Eddie Colman - aged 21, half-back. 107 appearances, 2 goals.

"Eddie was a chirpy lad and a terrific player. He pushed the ball - never kicked it - and he jinked past players. He was known for his swivel hips." - Wilf McGuinness

 

• David Pegg - aged 22, forward. 148 appearances, 28 goals.

"David would have been a great asset to any team because he was a natural left-flank player. David was very, very clever. Our best left-winger by a mile." - Sir Matt Busby

 

• Mark Jones - aged 24, half-back, 120 appearances, 1 goal. 

"Yorkshireman Mark was a really lovely fellow, but my word he was a tough nut, and nobody took any liberties with him on or off the field." - Bill Foulkes 

 

• Duncan Edwards - aged 21, half-back, 175 appearances, 21 goals.

"When I used to hear Muhammad Ali proclaim to the world he was the greatest, I used to smile. The greatest of them all was a footballer named Duncan Edwards." - Jimmy Murphy. "The only player who ever made me feel inferior." - Sir Bobby Charlton

 

• Tommy Taylor - aged 26, forward, 189 appearances, 128 goals.

"I rate him as one of the all-time, best centre-forwards in the game, and he had yet to realise all his potential. He was a typically bluff Yorkshireman in many ways, often acting the clown, and a great team man." - Bill Foulkes

 

• Liam 'Billy' Whelan - aged 22, forward, 96 appearances, 52 goals.

"Billy was a magician with a ball at his feet. I really don't think he knew how good he was and how much better he could have become. A world-class forward. There is no doubt about that. His vision and passing was sheer class." - Albert Scanlon

 

 

The New Munich Plaque

 

Manchester United staff:

Walter Crickmer • Club secretary

Tom Curry • Trainer
Bert Whalley • Chief coach

 

Bill Foulkes said:

 

"Walter Crickmer always reminded me of a little dynamo, nothing was too much trouble. Tom Curry was someone we looked up to like a father. And Bert Whalley was certainly a tremendous help to me when I was a part-timer."

Journalists:
 

Alf Clarke • Manchester Evening Chronicle

Donny Davies • Manchester Guardian

George Follows • Daily Herald

Tom Jackson • Manchester Evening News

Archie Ledbrooke • Daily Mirror

Henry Rose • Daily Express

Frank Swift • News of the World (also former England and Manchester City goalkeeper; died on his way to hospital)

Eric Thompson • Daily Mail

Other passengers:

Bela Miklos • Travel agent

Willie Satinoff • Supporter, racecourse owner and close friend of Matt Busby

 

BBC News: 1958 Munich Air Disaster Coverage

 

Munich Air disaster in words of survivor Kenny Morgans

 

Manchester United legend Kenny Morgan was one of the survivors of the Munich air disaster. He died at the age of 73 on the 18th November 2012. In an interview he gave to the official website of Manchester United, Morgans offered his recollection of events on that sad day.

 

 

"We came from Belgrade down into Munich to refuel , the weather was terrible, it was snowing, there was ice on the plane. They took the ice off the plane twice. The first couple of times we were just laughing.

 

We thought, “go and have another cup of coffee”. Nobody thought anything about it, everybody was joking.. But everybody was feeling the same way when we got on the third time,it was quiet. People had changed seats, gone up the back to sit down, so it seemed as if something was going to happen. I was sat by the window looking out. I was frightened to death. I remember thinking the plane can’t go any faster and we’re not in the air.

 

 

You don’t get over something like that. I’ve got the last line-up of the team in my lounge and I see the boys every time I get up and go downstairs. I was lucky because Duncan Edwards lived just two doors down from my digs, and Tommy Taylor was five doors away. I used to call for them to train every morning for three months, so I got to know them like brothers. I missed them a lot.

 

I came back from the crash on the train with Dennis Viollet. He was told not to kick a ball for a year. I was home for a week and Jimmy Murphy came to get me because he said we had no players  and no wingers. I played in a few games up to Wembley, I was picked on the Friday night to play in the final , so I was over the moon. I thought ‘I could play my heart out for the players that died.

 

Walking round the ground, Jimmy came up and told me he wasn’t going to play me because he thought the atmosphere in the ground would be too much. I wasn’t very pleased. A fortnight later he picked me for the Milan game at Old Trafford and told me he was sorry he hadn’t played me at Wembley because I’d have won the game for him. I played my heart out that night, I was man of the match against Milan. Then I just sort of packed my career in ,I just didn’t want to play in the first team.

 

I missed the boys that had died. I went home to Swansea , the boss thought it would help my career if I went back for a fresh start. But my heart wasn’t in it.

 

I remember hitting the fence at the end of the runway, then I blacked out. At about eight or nine o’clock that night, two German reporters went back to the plane to look for something and I was still there. I was the last out. Once the plane hit the fence, it had pushed me underneath the plane to the luggage compartment at the back.
 

I woke up on the Sunday morning, with Albert Scanlon, Bobby Charlton and Ray Wood and thought the other players would be in a different room. Then the professor of the hospital came round and told me of the players that had died, and said that Matt, Johnny Berry and Duncan Edwards were upstairs."

 

 

The Flowers Of Manchester

 

I'm sure fans from clubs all over the world will today be putting football rivalries aside to remember the sad events of 6th February 1958 & those who lost there lives. YNWA.

 

R.I.P

Don't you know, West Ham were 9th when we have beaten them ... What a glorious accomplishment ...

Seriously Mac nobody is happy we lost but do you have to beat the same fucking drum in EVERY thread. We get it.....you hate the owners, think we are a midtable side. have no ambition.........etc etc.

I admire your knowledge of players and links to statistics but you never have anything positive to say at all. You slated Sturridge before we bought him and he has scored 2 in 2 and changed the game when he came on today but do you acknowledge it? No.

Change the record mate or give it a rest because I for one an sick of listening to the same crap over and over again.

What Is Brendan Rodgers?

By Paul Tomkins.

Perhaps at the heart of the edginess of a large number of Liverpool fans – aside from the obviously displeasure at 12th position in the table, with five wins from 17 games – is that lack of someone at the club who has been there and done it.

We know this is a young team; at times the youngest in the Premier League this season. Even though there is experience on the pitch, the collective feel is one of youth and inexperience.

Behind the scenes, FSG, to use American parlance, are still football rookies. That’s not their fault (although critics might suggest that they didn’t have to buy the club), and I imagine (or at least hope) that they are learning fast.


But they are still novices, with no track record of appointing the right people in our sport (how do you recognise the right people in a sport you can’t be expected to fully understand?) While their Boston Red Sox have fallen away badly in the last couple of years, after they brought in the wrong people, their initial appointments did lead to the first titles in almost a century, and for the majority of their time they’ve been seen as the best in the business. They know how to run sports ‘franchises’ and revive ailing old stadia. They’re still learning how to run a football club.

Then there’s Ian Ayre. Guess what? He’s a rookie Managing Director, too. Is he any good? Honestly, I don’t know; partially because it’s hard to assess what the Americans call ‘back office’, but also because not a lot has gone right for the club during his tenure. He has been accredited with some good commercial deals, and in the modern game you need that, but what about in terms of leadership? His critics feel that he’s been absent too often, such as in the Suarez saga and on the final day of the transfer window, when he arrived home while Harry Redknapp was still leaning out of his car window.

The problem Rodgers has – and perhaps the problem Rodgers creates, or exacerbates – is that he too is a rookie. He has a good grounding in the game, after almost two decades of coaching at lower, reserve and youth level, but arrived with just one season of top flight management on his CV. He is untested in terms of the demands of a major football club. He seems to have some good ideas (including bringing in sports psychiatrist Steve Peters), but can he get them to work?

Young players. Rookie owners. Rookie Managing Director. And rookie manager. Perhaps all will prove to be experts and winners in the long run. But right now, it’s a big leap of faith for fans. Who do we look to in order to assuage our nerves?

When Bob Paisley was appointed to his first job in management, upon Bill Shankly’s resignation in 1974, Bob had spent 15 years as Bill’s sidekick. He knew the club, knew the players, inside out. (Ditto Joe Fagan in 1983.) When Kenny Dalglish was appointed in 1985, John Smith and Peter Robinson had been running the club for years, and were seen as the best in the business; and Dalglish intimately knew the players’ strengths and weaknesses. Dalglish was also offered the assistance of Paisley as an advisor. Things went so well that he didn’t really need to call upon the most successful manager in English football history, but had they not gone so smoothly, the master was on hand for the apprentice.

Perhaps 1998 is a good comparison point. David Moores was the owner, although he was never viewed as the sharpest operator, and let emotions, as a fan, cloud his decisions. Rick Parry was the new CEO, and Gérard Houllier the new manager. After an initial fudging of the issue by keeping Roy Evans as co-manager, the Frenchman eventually took full control.

Houllier was key in bringing in the professionalism that had already helped Arsenal dramatically improve (albeit without their superior brand of football). He was a flawed manager, with no great flexibility and no great style, but an excellent administrator and organiser, who had won the title in France in 1986 before moving to duties with the national side; having cut his teeth and made his mistakes in the French backwaters. And Rick Parry, for all his famed sleepiness when it came to making deals, knew his way around the game, after seven years spent working for the Premier League (the first year of which was spent setting it up).

Wherever you look in Liverpool’s history over the past 50 years, it’s impossible to find so little experience in key areas. That doesn’t mean it’s all doomed to fail; it just means that it’s harder to feel comforted when things aren’t quite working. Experience, and prior success, doesn’t guarantee anything, but having achieved something in the recent past suggests an ability to do so again.

FSG’s original plan was to pair a young manager with an experienced older head working behind the scenes. They were undoubtedly looking at some of football’s real heavyweights, including Johan Cruyff. By all accounts, Brendan Rodgers vetoed the appointment of Louis Van Gaal as Director of Football. Maybe he was right to do so; the Dutchman is notoriously fiery and most managers want sole control. But it would have seen at least someone with years of experience in a key position. And the abrasive Van Gaal didn’t have to be the only option, and Pep Segura was an alternative; the Spaniard obviously thought so, which is why he quit the club after being overlooked.

Rodgers wanted things on his terms. That’s his right. But if he fails, he will invite criticism for forcing FSG to change their plans; and FSG will be open to criticism for acquiescing to his demands.

So, what is Brendan Rodgers?

Is Rodgers the next Jurgen Klopp, whose philosophies he seems to share? Well, Klopp had seven seasons of management at Mainz (three of which were in the top flight) before taking over at Dortmund. I don’t know if I made the mistake, in the summer, of projecting the success of someone like Klopp onto Rodgers because they share some similarities.

We all make that kind of mistake with players. I couldn’t help but see Krisztián Németh as a Hungarian Robbie Fowler, given his similar build and the way he finished with such natural ease in the Reds’ reserves. This is a player who had scored 14 top-level goals in Hungary as a 17 year old; he’s now about to turn 24, and despite playing in Holland’s top flight, he has only added a further 10 league goals since the age of 17. We project greatness onto the unproven, and fill in the blanks with traits borrowed from past heroes. Every big African striker is the next Didier Drogba, after all.

Rodgers cuts the figure of the real thing. He speaks with authority, and sounds like he knows what he’s talking about. But with a 30% league win rate, we’re having to take his word for it. I’ve no doubt that he’s a good manager. But is that good enough?

He did a very good job at Swansea, but Michael Laudrup has improved them further, in a very short space of time. As I write, they’ve won more matches than Liverpool, and beaten the Reds in the League Cup.

Passing

Rodgers has had to change certain aspects of the way Liverpool play. By saying “but Liverpool have always been a passing side” ignores the many different formations over the past decade, the depth of the defensive line, the speed of the pressing, the loss of technical players, and so on. But equally, it holds some merit. We are not looking for Rodgers to recreate pass-and-move after years of long-ball football. Dalglish’s Reds had a certain directness with Andy Carroll in the side, but they still passed the ball (excellent rates in the final third) and created lots of chances.

Despite some issues with squad depth, and the low average age, it’s also true that Rodgers inherited a world-class keeper (whose form, admittedly, hasn’t been world-class for a couple of years); a world-class attacking right-back; two of the best centre-backs in the league; the most exciting striker in the league; a captain who was world-class, but who should still be one of the better attacking midfielders around; and the best holding midfielder in the league, albeit one who has yet to be fully match-fit this season.

On top of that, there’s a couple of prodigiously gifted youngsters in Sterling and Suso, and the man-boy beast of Wisdom; a very talented but tired and frail-looking £15m midfielder; an in-form and improving Jordan Henderson, who went to Euro 2012; a 28-year-old winger with 34 England caps; a Spanish left-back whose only two settings are ‘incredibly good’ and ‘incredibly bad’; a cultured young(ish) Real Madrid central-midfielder who was regarded the Bundesliga’s finest a couple of years back; a young Uruguayan international centre-back;  a well-past-his-best Jamie Carragher, who has turned back the years a little in the Europa League; a young full-back (Kelly) who has played for England; a promising 20-year-old bald-headed midfield goalscorer who has also represented his country; a Moroccan winger rated very highly in Holland before his move to Liverpool this summer; and an Italian international striker, albeit one who had failed to score a league goal before getting injured.

Oh, and Joe Cole.

It’s not a perfect squad by any means, but even in transition it should be doing better than being on course for 49 points; one point more than the glorious pro-rata total of Roy Hodgson, and three points less than last season. In 2012 prices, Liverpool have been fielding the 4th most expensive side in the Premier League in 2012/13, and that doesn’t include record signing Andy Carroll. This is no cheap side. Rodgers brought in just one of the regular starting XI (Borini being injured, Sahin out of favour and Assaidi rarely seen).

Rodgers failed to address the key needs of the squad in the summer – most notably forwards and goals from midfield (especially as so many goalscorers were offloaded) – with half of the players he brought in playing as non-attacking central midfielders. It’s never easy in a first summer, admittedly.

Once Allen’s bright start faded, it’s fair to say that none of the manager’s purchases (and loans) have succeeded, although any of the four could still make the grade. I’m fairly confident that Allen and Borini will prove to be good buys, in the way Jordan Henderson has started to acclimatise, and I feel that Sahin could show his true class once he gets used to the pace of the game over here (but as he’s only on  loan, he may not get the chance of a second season.)

The trouble is that if you’re bringing in four full internationals, you need one or two of them to deliver right away.

If you look at almost every club this summer, and at a variety of fees paid, you can see at least one success over the first five months of the season: Van Persie and Hazard at the top end of the scale; Cazorla and Dembele a bit further down; Berbatov, Fletcher, Ramirez and Michu beyond that. Aston Villa paid around £7m for Christian Benteke.

As Rodgers correctly notes, the Liverpool shirt is a particularly heavy one. Would a young buck like Benteke handle the pressure/rotation had be been Suarez’s partner/understudy? But going back five managers, Sami Hyypia found wearing the shirt a doddle, as did Markus Babbel (before illness struck) and John Arne Riise. Luis Garcia and Xabi Alonso hit the ground running, and kept going their whole debut campaign, as did Fernando Torres. (Garcia was hit-and-miss, but frequently turned games in the Reds’ favour.)

While you accept that there will be slow burners, like Lucas Leiva, you can’t afford for them to all be like that. And yet, since the end of 2009, only Glen Johnson (although he has also steadily improved) and Luis Suarez have come in and immediately impressed, and more importantly, looked consistently at home. You have to be able to get results during a transition, so that the project remains “sellable” to potential signings, and key talents don’t get disillusioned. Top four isn’t expected; top six or seven should not be beyond this squad.

Rodgers made a poor decision – a ‘rookie’ mistake, if you will – to let Carroll go before replacing him, and even if the big striker isn’t the manager’s cup of tea, it’s hard to how it could have hurt to have brought the Geordie on at 2-0 or 3-0 down yesterday (assuming he wouldn’t have picked up the same injuries), rather than have neither a transfer fee nor a replacement player. At times Skrtel has been pushed up, late in games, and if you’re going to do so, why not use that tactic with a proper forward? Barcelona don’t need a Plan B, but then they have world-class players from 1 to 11.

(There were also reports that Rodgers allegedly turned down the chance of bringing in £15m Daniel Sturridge; if true, that looks a mistake, in that the young Chelsea forward is capable of scoring goals from wide positions.)

No-one has made fewer substitutions than Rodgers in the Premier League this season, and while the bench often lacks attacking options due to squad issues, it doesn’t necessarily need three centre-backs (see yesterday) while promising young strikers are abroad with the reserves. It’s highly debatable if Joe Cole should be the go-to man from the bench, although he has at least scored some goals in his career (mostly in the days when he could still run). I think all of these are valid questions, without it meaning that Rodgers is doomed to failure.

FSG and/or Ian Ayre also messed up in not going the extra few million for Clint Dempsey, once the situation got so grave. Normally I’d have said it makes some sense to veto the wage demands and reasonably high transfer fee for a player of his age, but it would have helped plug part of the gap created by the loss of Bellamy, Kuyt and Maxi, especially as several big wages were already removed from the overall bill.

A better final ball yesterday, and Liverpool would surely have led against Villa, and the outlook would be entirely different. Going forward, bar that final pass, or the efforts at goal (all of which were tame), the Reds looked dangerous, with some great movement and interplay outside the box. But the capitulation was genuinely shocking. And on top of their three goals, Villa came close on three further occasions. Losing at home to a team like Villa is something that can happen; being 3-0 down after 50 minutes to a team that mediocre (and inexperienced) should never happen. As it was, the fightback from the Reds was underwhelming.

I also think it was a mistake by Rodgers last week to mention ambitions beyond the top four this season, after a decent but unspectacular run of results (which still had the Reds below Norwich in the form guide). The Reds were easing up the table, under the radar, but as soon as the focus was raised, slipped down to 12th.

It may just be coincidence, but it’s been almost 20 years since the Reds were 3-0 down at home in a league game, and that was against the reigning champions, not an inexperienced Aston Villa side lingering near the relegation zone (and even with Graeme Souness as manager, and Nigel Clough as the hero, the Reds came back to draw).

Was talk of not being that far off second place really necessary? I know several Liverpool fans who think Rodgers is incapable of keeping his cards close to his chest. His XI is often predictable, and he talks openly about his tactics. Where’s his poker face? (Or did Lady Gaga steal it?)

I loathed the way Roy Hodgson always talked down the Reds’ chances, as if they were a plucky Norwegian 2nd division side, but equally, expectations do need some managing. No mention of anything beyond the top four should be made by anyone at the club until in the top four. That should be club law!

All managers make mistakes, and no matter who was in charge, we could be listing a few gripes as the halfway point looms. Rodgers needs time, and needs backing in the January window. But he also has to get more out of what he’s got. In a team lacking goals, he’s kept Steven Gerrard in deeper areas; and yet against Manchester United and Villa he showed what he can still do when around the penalty spot. Gerrard can no longer run as fast and hard as he used to, but he can still finish like a forward. What happened to the talk of him on the right of a front three? Surely that, with Sterling on the left, should have been explored?

Real?

I want Rodgers to succeed. I want him to be the real deal. I’m just no closer to knowing if that’s the case. I’m pretty sure he’s not a blundering buffoon like Hodgson (who seemed to totally lose the plot  and his usual sense of avuncular calm during his short tenure), and I feel that the way that Liverpool now play is conducive to gradual improvement rather than gutless stagnation.

But even with Lucas now back, opponents are cutting through the Reds on the break so easily that you’d expect OAPs on Zimmer frames to be capable of doing the same. Liverpool have a surfeit of central midfielders (although that still doesn’t explain why Henderson was almost given away to Fulham), but although possession is being dominated, there seems to be no response when teams counter-attack.

So, what is Brendan Rodgers? All I can say for certain is that he’s a good young manager, but one whose only successes in the game were getting Swansea promoted and seeing them to a respectable 11th in 2011/12. The CV, however, provides little comfort in times of crisis.

Some of his critics feel that rather than be the real deal, he talks himself up too much; a kind of football salesman, dazzling us with advertising when the product fails to live up to the hype. But then who’d want a manager who didn’t believe in himself or transmit an air of confidence and authority? But the walk has to match the talk.

That said, he seems to have the potential to be a great manager, and he’s on a steep learning curve at Liverpool; if he improves quickly enough (and I don’t mean immediately), then great, but patience can’t stretch forever. Right now, he deserves time to get things right. How much time? Well, the length of a piece of string springs to mind.

http://tomkinstimes....rendan-rodgers/

Tell you what, I avoid the post match threads as a rule, because of idiotic knee jerk reactions.

I'm not a superfan by any stretch of the imagination, and have a fairly lengthy history of having a go at people in at the club where warranted.

But fuck me if having read through one or two pages of this godforsaken thread, I have to say I'm appalled at the attitudes of some people on here who claim to support this club. We play well and lose, there's moaning. We fail to not have our most perfect 90 minutes (without our best player or with any recognized striker on the pitch or bench) but get three points, and still there's moaning.

Quite a few supposed "fans" need to have a fucking word with themselves.

welcome, good luck.

wheres our fucking first teamers?

before ingelthorpe came in the academy was going gangbusters, producing the likes of sterling suso and wisdom to name but a few, however, since ingelthorpe started at LFC, name me one player, one fucking player, thats gotten near the first team that hes produced?

Don't worry lads, these things even themselves out.

So that's about 12 penalties, a few offside goals and about 7 red cards we're owed already

This picture is wonderful: