A big summer ahead, or is it...........

Discussion in 'The Albert - LFC Talk' started by Nevoo34, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. Nevoo34

    Nevoo34 Sleeping with the enemy

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    I make no claims to be capable of running a football club but it’s a genuine wonder to me that “value” is as much of a concern to the hierarchy of Liverpool as it apparently is, with the club supposedly one of the top ten richest in the world. Surely they can’t think that Pogba’s signing was intended to represent “value”, outside of the usual inflated shirt sales claims? Maybe that’s a bad example given that Manchester United are frequently winning games at the moment in spite of Pogba rather than because of him, but the transfers of Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale to Real Madrid and, closer to home, Luis Suárez to Barcelona were very similar in that they were solely designed to bring on-pitch success to the purchasing clubs. Value? Suárez cost north of £60m and Ronaldo/Bale in excess of £80m in transfer fees alone, before you even start to skirt the matter of agent’s cuts, bonus payments, signing-on fees and weekly wages. The best don’t come cheap, the biggest don’t care.

    I can only imagine what Liverpool’s current hierarchy would make of Manchester United’s decision to buy the 23 year-old Ferdinand from Leeds United. That fee (£30m+) was mind-blowing for the time and made him the world’s most expensive defender. When Paul Tomkins’ Transfer Price Index was applied to take account of transfer market inflation in the meantime back in 2015, it became £82m. In no way, shape or form did Ferdinand represent “value” in the traditional sense of the word, and when he eventually left 12 years later the club didn’t even receive a fee for him, instead having to make do with the 6 Premier League titles, 3 League Cups and Champions League he helped them win. The same will also soon be true of Wayne Rooney, signed for £25m as a teenager in 2004 (also £82m in 2015 money according to Tomkins) who will likely command a vastly reduced fee when he leaves Old Trafford. I doubt they’ll care.

    Perhaps all of this is just a refusal on my part to live in the present. The truth is that FSG represent the inevitable conclusion of a journey that both football in general and Liverpool in particular have been on over the past 25 years or so. Arsenal and Wenger, who himself has never seemed particularly enamoured with modern football, have been on it too. Liverpool’s current owners likely wouldn’t have even had the opportunity to buy the club, much less at a knockdown price, had their predecessors not taken so long to adjust to the new reality represented by the Premier League. Everything else flows from that. Almost three decades of subtle, creeping mismanagement, never quite all-out collapse (well, once, almost) but nonetheless consistently operating at a level inferior (often vastly so) to what rivals have been doing in the same period followed and has long since culminated in death by a thousand cuts to another of those famous Bill Shankly mantras, one of the few not already laid to waste by the coming of the Premier League era, namely the one about building Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility and conquering the bloody world.

    The resulting mistakes, inadequacies and near-misses have seen to it that ideas of the club dominating anything have long since gone the same way as notions that well-paid footballers not giving their all for the public are a menace who should be put in jail, that the various appendages of players belong to the club rather than themselves, and beliefs in everybody working for the same goal and having a share of the rewards. In fact, the only part of modern football with which a reincarnated Shankly would likely be familiar is that he would still no doubt close the curtains if Everton were playing in his back garden. The most striking change he would find, of course, is to his professed belief that directors are only there to sign the cheques. In the first instance, this idea presupposes that said directors are actually “there” in the first place rather than 3,000 miles away on another continent, and in any case, SEPA transfers are the preferred way of doing business nowadays. More importantly, it vastly underestimates the power of modern owners and their assorted underlings.

    Rafa Benítez once said of Chelsea that “the key to them is Abramovich”, and he was right. In the decade or so before the Russian’s arrival, they had admittedly already moved from being a club purchased by its previous owner for £1 and with a carpark behind one of the goals as the Premier League era dawned to regular contenders at the top end of the table, but it was the billionaire’s purchase of the club in 2003 that started them on the path towards being one of the biggest names in modern football who, despite protestations to the contrary, now have going on 20 years’ worth of serious history to their name defined primarily by silverware and famous European nights in April and May. We all said that Chelsea won the lottery the day Abramovich showed up on the doorstep of Stamford Bridge with his billions, but their fortune was every bit as vested in his willingness to actually spend it as the number of pounds and pence to his name.

    That’s one side of the coin, the transformation of a club whose most expensive signing was Paul Furlong as recently as 1994 to one which can routinely demand the attention of the world’s best managers and players. The other side is that, at their worst, the suits in the boardroom now have the capability, in a sport whose relatively recent enrichment would surely be far beyond the comprehension of a time-traveller from the 1960’s or 1970’s, to literally destroy football clubs, or at least inflict serious damage. I wonder what Shankly would make of Leeds United, for example, one of the club’s greatest rivals during his time in charge who are still slowly working their way back from the cataclysmic events wrought by the mismanagement of a businessman in a suit named Ridsdale (who, incidentally, almost repeated the trick later at Cardiff and is now an advisor at another of Shankly’s clubs, Preston), and whose current owner’s highlights include sacking 7 managers in his first 2 years of ownership, brief disqualification from running the club after being found guilty of tax evasion and another suspension upcoming for sanctioning an illegal payment?

    And he would surely be downright baffled at the power now wielded by the likes of Jorge Mendes (I wouldn’t know where to begin), Mino Raiola (sufficiently cocksure of his place in the world to call no less a manager than Klopp “a piece of shit” earlier this season) and Aidy Ward (who was instrumental in an 18 year-old deciding that he had outgrown one of the most storied football clubs in the world). This is the era of money and moneymen, and the idea of players, manager and supporters forming a “holy trinity” into which the suits daren’t step is now as antiquated as terraces, tight shorts and perms.

    Liverpool’s owners hold the fate of their club in their hands to an extent that would have been unimaginable and maybe even horrific to Shankly, and the fear, of course, is that their definition of “success” has already been achieved and then some. Having bought Liverpool for in and around £300m back in October 2010, they now preside over a club valued by Forbes last year at over £1bn. Their investment was shrewd, a massive return already pretty much guaranteed. With that being the case, and regardless of how much revenue is being generated by the club, their approach to running Liverpool has every appearance of seeking to minimise risk above all else. Even Arsenal, a club at which the amount being spent on players has similarly long been a hot topic amongst supporters, have had a number of transfer windows where the amount spent massively exceeded anything recouped (2014/15 and 2016/17 in particular).

    With regard to Liverpool, I find it hard to shake the feeling that very few major transfers during FSG’s stewardship have been completed without a comparable sum, or the prospect thereof, coming the other way. The £23m signing of Suárez in January 2011 came a few months after Javier Mascherano left for £18m; the same month, Andy Carroll arrived for £35m on the same night that Fernando Torres left for £50m; the following summer, the £19m signing of Stewart Downing was offset somewhat by the departure of Raul Meireles for £12m; Sakho arrived for £18m in the same season that Andy Carroll left for £17m; the summer of 2014 saw a host of players signed primarily out of the £65m fee received for the departing Suárez; Christian Benteke (£32m) and Roberto Firmino (£29m) arrived as Raheem Sterling (£50m) left, Mané (£34m) and Wijnaldum (£25m) as Benteke (£27m), Ibe (£15m) and Allen (£13m) departed. Only Allen’s arrival for £15m in the summer of 2012 really bucks the trend in any meaningful way, and most of the original fee was recouped from Stoke this season.

    That feeling, I assume, is why Klopp was moved to explicitly discuss the matter last Friday. The last time the club had a manager of this stature guiding it, he was far more vociferous than the German regarding the need to sign players. Liverpool’s current boss has been more circumspect, but I don’t believe for one second that a coach as obviously driven, talented and passionate about the game as Klopp doesn’t want to work with the very best and to win. Speaking of Pogba’s transfer earlier in the season, he said that “other clubs can go out and spend more money and collect top players. I want to do it differently. I would even do it differently if I could spend that money”. However, he went on to qualify this by saying that “if I spend money, it is because I am trying to build a team, a real team. Barcelona did it. You can win championships, you can win titles, but there is a manner in which you want it”.

    If the transfer business of Barcelona, who haven’t been afraid to spend to spend huge sums over the years on the likes of Suárez, Neymar, Fabregas, Sanchez, Villa, Mascherano, Ibrahimovic and others to reinforce what they already had, is a benchmark for Klopp, then it’s safe to say that he is not adverse in principle to "spending big" on players he wants. Mané and Wijnaldum certainly weren’t cheap. The question then becomes whether he receives the backing this summer that he seems to be counting on (“We all have the same plan: sporting director, scouting department, owners, myself…we want to make this club as big and as successful as possible…Will it be a similar transfer window as last summer when we broke even? I don’t think it is possible. Now there will be a few other faces”).

    We can only hope so because, regardless of how disappointing the performances have been over the past couple of months, the majority of the current squad, which took 43 points from 19 games to start the season, should surely be retained and reinforced with three or four players of the highest quality. That, it seems to me, is not just how you “build a team, a real team”, it’s how you build the kind of squad required to support it. Sakho, maybe Lucas and, the way the signs are pointing, Daniel Sturridge are likely to be the only major exits from the club this summer, along with Markovic who in any case will have been on loan for two years by then, that’s if Barcelona leave it a little longer to go all-in for Coutinho and the club can convince Emre Can to sign a new deal. Breaking even with the income generated by those four is unlikely to be enough in itself, especially given that the style of football Klopp favours tends to rely more heavily on individual ability than, say, Conte’s Chelsea, where perceived weak links like David Luiz or Victor Moses have been able to form key cogs in a system built on defensive organisation (Luiz in Klopp’s system, for example, with Jordan Henderson frequently providing the only midfield protection, would surely be a different proposition to the one who has Kanté and Matić in front and a centre-back either side on a weekly basis). The talent required for it to function properly is likely, therefore, to come at a premium. All of this is not even considering the longer term issue of what happens if/when we reach a point where the manager wants to keep everyone during a transfer window but would like to add a couple more.

    Klopp’s Liverpool, occasionally dodgy defence and all, has frequently looked as good as anyone during his time in charge. To do that consistently is a tall order which will only be achieved by showing real ambition in actions as well as words, the kind of ambition that other top clubs are likely to be showing. Failure to take advantage of this opportunity will only result in more restlessness as the club falls further behind its rivals. Whether or not a top-4 finish is secured between now and May, this really does look like being the defining summer to end all defining summers.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2017
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  2. redalways

    redalways TIA Regular

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    I really don't understand all this talk about summers and other transfer window rubbish.

    Yes, you reinforce your squad, sometimes you can pick up really transformational players, but we have, as a club, tended to err on the side of making too many transfers rather than looking at what we can do with what we have. At least with Jurgen Klopp as the manager, we can be sure that his additions to the team will definitely be after some thought as to overall squad balance, including our youth players, rather than just knee-jerk responses. I don't think he's here just to faff around with the CL qualification trophy, but here to win. He definitely has the ambition for that, and the nearly £40m the owners were willing to blow on a relatively unproven player in January last year should prove that they are more than willing to back him now that they've got the man they have been after all this while.

    Such a long post, with such rhetoric, is simply window-dressing for another rant/lament about our owners/summer transfers. Why not focus on the existing thread?
     
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  3. Nevoo34

    Nevoo34 Sleeping with the enemy

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    Fucking hell, am trying to put a different slant on it and rather than focus on FSG but highlight our failings over the past 25 years.

    Not a stick to beat FSG with at all.

    I doubt you have read it through.

    I suggest you read the post again and try to understand it in the context it was written.

    Then come back with reasoned debate rather than barbed comments or better still, don't like it, don't comment at all.
     
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  4. Jase

    Jase Well-Known Member

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    Well written.

    Personally I think we're at a pretty big disadvantage in the transfer stakes when compared to the other teams in contention for top end players, even before it comes to who's qualified for the ECL spots.

    Liverpool, the city, doesn't have the same pulling power as London and our spending and paying power is definitely at the lower end of the top 6 mini league.

    I'd love at least one killer signing this summer that we knew our rivals wanted and didn't get... but that won't happen. The best we'll do is a few high potential, relatively-unproven players and perhaps an out-of-favour player coming to the end of his prime. Will that be enough to build on with Klopp in charge?.. maybe.
     
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  5. Jase

    Jase Well-Known Member

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    lol i was almost gonna say.. and you wrote that whole thing without using the "F" word once
     
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  6. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    Value and cost are not the same thing, and "Value" was a central point of Fergie's transfer strategy for the best part of 2 decades. Two examples you give that question why we would focus on value (Ferdinand and Rooney) are ones that Fergie would point to as evidence of why prioritizing value was so critical. Giving any consideration of the transfer fee you get back from a player after the 10 years of service they have given you is not only missing the point, you have actually stared the point right in the face and then ignored it - they did one deal and got 10 years of top class service out of the players.

    We cannot compete with Utd on cost, and that is the very reason we have to concentrate on value. That does not mean buying cheap, but it means if we're going to spend 40 million on one player, it isn't going to be on a 28 year old who will be shit before his first contract is over.
     
  7. Scott Jones

    Scott Jones Well-Known Member

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    Yeah,stick with and make what we have better,jesus christ my fucking heart just sank.:shocked:
     
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  8. Chewbazza

    Chewbazza True Believer

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    Problem is that it's all done with hindsight.

    £35m was a stupid amount to spend on Andy Carroll. Had he gone on to score 20-30 goals a season for a decade then his value would've been okay. As it turned out it wasn't.

    Hendo was branded as overpriced for much of his early time here. Then he had a breakthrough season, became Captain and doesn't look like leaving any time soon. When he finally does, most people won't be worrying about his initial fee.

    There's no way to tell until a player leaves, if their fee was value for money.
     
  9. Nevoo34

    Nevoo34 Sleeping with the enemy

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    You know me all too well @Jase
     
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  10. mattyhurst

    mattyhurst TIA Regular

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    You can also include Lallana in that who is probably one of our best players.
     
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  11. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    In many cases yes, but there were a number of red flags around Carroll that were effectively ignored.

    It's also why you don't try to put all your eggs in one basket or overspend so if that player does have to ship out it is easier to do.
     
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  12. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    Aye, which directly relates to Klopp's pogba comment.
     
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  13. redbj

    redbj crowd fund for you to shut up give me the details

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    It's eggs aren't all in a pogba shaped basket though.

    There's a bit brilliant ponytailed basket taking a lot of heat off him.
     
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  14. boston red

    boston red Show me the Mane.

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    Very doubtful Liverpool will be shopping in the same window as Manchester clubs Chelsea PSG Real Madrid Bayern Munich Barcelona , we may not be able to compete with Juventus Dortmund Atletico Madrid,
    So I'm led to believe we're looking for a talent, catch them before they break, like Aubameyang came from st etienne. if there is a player like sadio we will try to move.
     
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  15. Gazmaninaus

    Gazmaninaus Well-Known Member

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    I think, some of us, may be sadly let down by the upcoming window. There are only so many players available, in our price range, and age structure. Whether, they want to move or not, is another thing.
    .
    Look, at the current rumours, around Dembele, we could have signed him for free, from Fulham, now their talking 30-40 million, but he is only playing in Scotland.
    .
    If a player from Scotland, can muster that fee, then even a 100 million, will not go far.
    .
    So, I think up and coming players, will be our plight, for the near future.
     
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  16. Gazmaninaus

    Gazmaninaus Well-Known Member

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    Also, it should be noted, we may not be in a financial position to stack players up, as we have some real need for genuine positional players.
    .
    We need some substance in our midfield. A commanding centre back, something around the goal keeping issue, desperate for a left back, possibly a right back, and that doesn't take into account, a striker.
    .
    So a 100 million, would only get us to where we feel comfortable, and cover holes in the current team, that of course is without injuries.
    .
    Effectively, I think, I'm advocating, that the only policy, we can use at the moment, is up and coming, but with a real emphasis, on keeping them here.
     
  17. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    It is a well thought out piece, I don't understand your rant. The post isn't about transfer budget knee-jerking, slating the owners from start to end and calling out the club recruitment team. You've bought too much into building it from within, and that's just Klopp talking to please the mass (fans and everyone involved). It is also worth noting that Klopp himself isn't exactly the best recruiter in the market, and no manager will come out telling the world we are going to go to market spending hundreds of millions every summer, not even Mourinho.

    As for the @Nevoo34 post, I think the subject of value had been touched by some of the members in here. The biggest mistake the club has ever done, or rather FSG did at the beginning of their tenure is to talk about the "Arsenal model", and being such a huge admirer of it. The other one was allowing that French fella, Comolli to talk too damn much. I have to admit I do use that same stick to beat our owners, but Comolli's big talk about how well he scouted young players, pay big price for them only to see them sold for 10 times more than what he paid for them, years own the road. Spoke of buying young, sell at the age of them being at the peak. That comment didn't only make some fans felt we are a selling club, that also opens up doors for clubs like Barcelona looking at us like how we look at Southampton.

    So the word "value" for Ferguson, which Limie posted is very different from the definition our owners believe in. For people like Ferguson, the old school football man, is all about trophies first, making money out of them later. Those were the days where we also buy players like Dalglish breaking transfer record because we believe he will bring us glory, rather than money. The definition of value even among us fans are very different these days, some would tell you that they are a better fan than you because they want the club to earn a healthy profit (as if they get anything out of it).

    For me, it is still too early to tell what Klopp is going to do in each summer window. I am not going to judge him on one window and I don't take winter window as a benchmark (although we did our best business in recent times during that window). I am also going to see how this new structure the owner put together is going to work. Killing off that transfer committee vs manager, appointing an unorthodox sporting director reporting to the manager, having the manager calling the shots in all footballing matters while the sporting directors and his crew playing the supporting role to that main star. I would give Klopp this coming summer window to show intent, and next season to mount a proper and serious challenge for the league.
     
  18. StrongINTheAir

    StrongINTheAir The voice of reason

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    Who cost nothing in transfer. Huge wages sure, but they are paying The Overhyped One about the same wage, after spending £89m on him.
    I imagine if Zlatan wasn't free, they still would've spent that on Pogba, but it helped they didnt
     
  19. StrongINTheAir

    StrongINTheAir The voice of reason

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    More importantly this summer needs to have CL next season on offer. I think we would've seen even more shipped and better quality brought in if we could've attracted them. Without that, I think we reeled it in a bit. And I'm thankful for that because spending just to spend was filling the cupboard with mediocrity.
     
  20. DanLFC

    DanLFC Strafing ground targets

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    I think your right but I do think we can raise at least 50 mil in sales as well as FSG tipping in 100mil you'd think that would give us sufficient scope to take big steps forward.

    GK, CB & LB would be my priority positions, CM and Striker next and if the budget allows maybe a RB too but I think come next season TAA will possibly surpass Clyne, at least in an attacking sense anyway so then we can use Clyne for away trips to keep it tight and TAA for home games to help breakdown the parked bus.

    Big summer coming though, really hope FSG give Klopp the support he needs to improve the first team.
     
  21. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    There are some problems with that though. We now have a manager who everyone in the market knows, and if we cannot attract talent with him at the helm and needed a Champs League competition to do so, then we are in deep trouble. With 6 clubs now vying for Champs League spot finish, there are every chance to see us or most if not all of the 6 teams not finishing in the Champs League spot in every single season, does that mean we will need to sell if we don't make it? Does that also mean we only buy Champs League quality once we make it there? We cannot keep saying without Champs League we cannot attract better players, it does not add up any more. United didn't have Champs League last summer, Chelsea didn't even get into Europa League, let alone Champs League. Silva moved to City when they weren't in the Champs League, and we could not even get Sanchez on the negotiation table when we get ourselves into Champs League. For me Champs League argument is an excuse we should stay away from and should never keep banging that drum.
     
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  22. DanLFC

    DanLFC Strafing ground targets

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    You can't compare what clubs like City, Chelsea and United can do without CL football versus what we can do because they can pay more or less double the wages we can. It's a lot easier to sell a player on the club when your offering 200k or more per week, all of a sudden CL football isn't that relevant. For clubs like us and Spurs and Arsenal who don't offer ridiculous wages to players having CL football can be the tipping point that gets a player signed.

    When you can't compete financially then you need to make sure you have as many other positives to talk about and CL football is a major one of those. Playing at Anfield is another, playing for Klopp is another and all of a sudden maybe that 50/60/70k a week we are offering is acceptable.

    It would be good to see the Europa League beefed up as far as prize money is concerned so that it was less of a red headed step child. Would mean the bigger clubs give it a bit more attention/respect, maybe make it so that both finalists make the knock out stage of the following seasons CL as well.
     
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  23. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Taking into account the line before the one you quoted, we were in Champs League once but we didn't attract any high quality addition at that season either. Also, if you takeinto account that there are more than 4 teams vying for the Champs League spot, you have a pretty high chance to fall out of Champs League spot one season or two, then what are we going to do? Use the same narrative?

    Wages for top quality band of players have gone up significantly, and a Coutinho is already bagging £150K a week. We as a club are very willing to pay high transfer fees, unlike Spurs who stay on course to be the miser of the lot. You won't see Levy breaking his own transfer fee cap, and Arsenal has already broken their wage cap since they bought Ozil and Sanchez. If we are willing to pay clubs for high transfer fees because we feel the player is worth the money, why aren't we willing to pay the players the wages too? Have you asked yourself that?

    No top tiered quality player would come to you just because you are in the Champs League, and it has been proven. We may fantasise that the players came to play for us because of Anfield, but that is not longer a pull for them. Pounds and Euros are doing all the talking these days. If we cannot put those numbers up, then we will have to live with what we have today, and that is the whole point of my post that you quoted. No point keep using the excuses of no Champs League, while it is apparent that the biggest pulling factor is the money.

    The bold part.... As for the Champs League prize money, Premier League hike made us more money than any other teams in other league that enjoy the Champs League windfall. It has been said and proven that a Premier League club makes more than Napoli even though they are in Champs League. So it is not so much the prize money anymore but the prestige of being in the competition, which then helps attract more lucrative sponsorship deals.

    So let's not harp on Champs League spot and money, and let's win some domestic trophies first. Get the team used to winning before thinking about Champs League.
     
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  24. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    No, we couldn't.
     
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  25. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    As Kopstar says, we couldnt have got Dembele for free. He was out of contract, sure, but like Ings there would have been some compensatory fee to pay. I doubt he will cost anyone £30-40m (that league is equivalent to the championship or league one in England), but even if he did, there are plenty of other players we can sign who could be just as good but cost far less.
     
  26. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    Levy did smash his own transfer cap when they signed Sissoko last summer.

    We are willing to pay high wages too, but only for the right players.......but the fact we are still buying so many players each window, it makes it harder to pay for both the fee and wage and,, for players in that bracket now, it is getting harder for us to pay that level of wage.

    We didnt lose out to Sanchez because of wages, nor would we have approached Kroos with the aim of underpaying him, so it's funny that you mention the former affecting Arsenal's wage cap because we reportedly offered more than them. Again, Arsenal had built up a £100m warchest and are buying fewer players each summer than us, and have often sold a player or two for a reasonable fee that helps them develop their squad.
     
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  27. Hope in your heart

    Hope in your heart Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts... Admin

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    I don't think that qualifying for next season's CL (or not) will make any difference to our transfer strategy. One only needs to look at what happened last time we qualified for that competition: we sold our very best player, the only real top player we had alongside the ageing Gerrard, one who was driving us forward no end, and replaced him with up-and-coming players like Lallana, Can, Origi or Moreno. Young players the club was hoping to see flourish in coming years.

    As a result, we lost our competitive edge and retrograded into an inconsistent side forming young talents for the future, especially with Gerrard fading away. That's still very much our predicament nowadays. Despite playing very well at times, we can't maintain consistency over a season because we lack a few confirmed top players at their peak. At this stage, we can only hope that Klopp will manage to convince the owners to hold the team together when the next bumper-offer comes in for one of our players.

    But I for one wouldn't hold my breath. Typically, if Barca come in next summer or the one after that, and put 70m on the table for Coutinho, I wouldn't be too surprised if the club sells him without any questions asked, just like they did with Suarez. fsg's whole history since joining the club suggests that they'd take the money. Klopp would then be condemned to look out for the next young and talented player to take his place, while Coutinho would go on winning trophies with the Catalans, like Suarez before him.

    As eddie said, 'value for money' can be interpreted in several ways. To take Ferdinand's example again: never have 30 millions be invested that wisely. He stayed at the season for more than ten years, which means that for barely 3 millions a year in transfer fees, they got themselves a top player and club captain for more than a decade. A player who consistently helped them to stay at the top and win trophies.

    With fsg, looking at their history with us, I can't help thinking that they look to sell players with profit. That's the value they see in a player. They must have rubbed their hands together with glee when Barca's offer for Suarez came in, thinking about how they had managed to more than triple their initial investment in the player. Had they invested 30m in the equivalent of Ferdinand, they'd likely have sold him for 60m a few years later.

    The irony is that their initial admiration of the 'Arsenal-model' was terribly inappropriate. Arsenal were forced to conduct that policy because they saddled themselves with that new stadium project, and had no billionaire to pay for it. So, they had to put the club into debt, and ask Wenger to almost break even in transfer fees, which he did admirably well, season after season. But at the same time, he went from a confirmed trophy-winning manager to a developer of young talents. Since a few years though, Arsenal have changed their ways again, as they aren't saddled down with debt anymore, and have started to invest heavily in top players again.

    But I'm not sure that fsg have smelled the coffee yet, and if Klopp isn't careful, he'll go down the exact same way than Wenger: developing promising players no end before seeing them sold by the club, and maintaining LFC as a permanent project for the future.

    Of course, there's hope that fsg might have learnt something from diverse fiascos they were involved in: for instance selling Torres for 50m just when they had managed to bring in Suarez, only to then buy Carroll for 35m (urgh, it hurts writing this...), or selling Suarez for a bumper fee, only to spend it on young upcoming players or insufficiently talented players, and thus seeing the club lose years in it's overall development process.

    Bottom-line, 'value' is something that has much more to do than money alone. Fortunately, that's something Klopp is very aware of, and we can only hope that the owners have moved on from their previous misguided ways, and are 100% on the same page than him.
     
  28. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    I disagree with this. I'm yet to see any fans that think they are better than others simply because the club makes a profit. The owners have stated they want the club to support itself. Any 'profits' are therefore going straight back into the playing squad. Until there is more confidence in our ability to buy well, any thoughts of borrowing money to sign players should be completely avoided.

    Also, I think you overplay the 'value' difference. The owners have not looked to sell any of our players simply because we have recieved an offer greater than what they are valued for. They havent bought players simply because they thought they would bring more money in either, and if the club's revenues were higher, so would be our spending both in wages and fees.

    With regards to Kenny's buying in the 80's, let us not forget that it also led to us having to buy players like Speedie and Carter because our money was drying up. Lawrenson has gone on record as saying that it in addition to the stress he had put himself through, one of the reasons Kenny left was because the board would not sanction the £1m fee for Shearer to begin the rebuild needed.
     
  29. Zoran

    Zoran Fighting like beavers.

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    Just give me 2-3 summers in a row with quality business. Even with the right strategy and targets, there will always be the odd failure or something between, someone not really that good you thought he might be. Big summer yes, but we're in a process, again, and it can't be solved in one window. We did pretty good last summer, now let's continue. We have our limits under these owners, but I still feel we can improve with what we can spend. CL football is only going to help of course. Even if this league is now so competitive that it's harder to defend that CL spot the season after, especially if you managed to stay involved in Europe until spring months. I'm curious if we can improve in the area Ayre was responsible, although I know it's been said that the guy who replaces him will be less involved in transfer negotiations. But still, I want to see how these new people between Klopp and the board work in dealing... can we improve and get some targets in quickly, while other big clubs are waiting for their top targets.
     
    redalways and redfanman like this.
  30. The Elusive 19th

    The Elusive 19th TIA Youth Team

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    Apart from CL footy and pay, 2 things where we could be having problem while going for a player are
    1) communication with various agents. Agents may not be the one who makes the final decision - but they are important nevertheless. I don't think we have strong tie up with various agents - who can in turn tip off us well in advance if the player is thinking about a transfer. Also they can put good word for us in the players ear.
    2) how much we covet the player. We should be in the players ear atleast a good 6 month before even going to the table for negotiation. And we should sell not only the project - but also the part the player should play in the said project. Kind of roadmap for the player - even if they are just going to be a backup option.
    More than CL, above 2 things and weekly pay is where i feel we loose the players. Especially Sanchez, Alli, etc we missed due to the above 2.
     
    Anfield rd Dreamer likes this.

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