A big summer ahead, or is it...........

Discussion in 'The Albert - LFC Talk' started by Nevoo34, Mar 13, 2017.

  1. Mascot88

    Mascot88 Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders Moderator

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    My point that his status in the squad was firmly in the top bracket. Going up to him towards the end of his second season of being a key first team player, and treating him like a young lad who should be grateful for what he was getting was ridiculous. If the club weren't intending to treat him as an important first team player, they shouldn't have used him as one.

    I'm not completely exonerating him, cos he has form for a contract wrangle, and Christ knows Aidy Ward is a cunt, but the club were incredibly naive to take that tack with him.
     
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  2. W00die

    W00die Member

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    I think we will still struggle to attract 'big names' this summer even if (when!) we qualify for the Champions League for the simple reason we don't (yet) do that often enough. Leicester won the Premiership last year but I doubt your PEA's, Lewandowski's etc would entertain going there as it was likely a won hit wonder. Same goes if they win the Champions League this year. However, if they had finished in the top 4 again this year and get to Finals of CL then their chance would (slightly) increase. Same for us, we need to consistantly show we are qualifying for CL (with maybe occasional Europa League) before most 'big names' would want to move here.

    So, this Summer I'm expecting a mix of future talents (hopefully not distant future) and some 1st team starters who are better / as good as what we have. We should then be able to field a bench that would actually give us decent options rather than bums on seats / youngsters not ready / Lucas.

    Few years time we could attract these 'big names' if we wanted, but hopefully some of our future talents have become them anyway and they have no intention of leaving......
     
  3. Artrain

    Artrain Well-Known Member

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    I really do not think FSG's intention is for Liverpool to become a selling club. First of all if that was indeed their intention, then buying a club of Liverpool's stature makes absolutely no sense. They would have done well to invest in a mid table club with good scouting network, like Southampton for example (although Southampton was probably not in the PL at that time). Secondly, John Henry would have hardly come out in one of their first videos and likened their company to 'curse breakers' and said that their aim was to win a title with Liverpool. True, what is said to the media cannot be taken as a 100% fact, but neither is it 100% misdirection.

    What is doubtless though, is that they do intend to run LFC at the very least to self-sufficient efficiency, and I don't particularly think it either good or bad. Its just fair. We're not going to have the spending power of City or Chelsea or even United, whose debt doesn't seem like its going to decrease any time soon. And just like we didn't cry that our parents weren't filthy rich, we can't really blame FSG for not being an oil company.

    I think the biggest debate comes with the question of whether FSG's aim now is just the money or do they want to actually win anything. Its easy to say that them admiring Arsenal's way running the club points to the former, but is setting Arsenal as the benchmark really a bad thing? Arsenal are one step away from being a silverware winning club. And that step seems to be almost intentionally held back by their owner. How many steps back are we on the other hand? If we do get to Arsenal's stage I don't think our owners would hold us back from that one step. Arminius has regularly mentioned that FSG are the type who won't hesitate to spend on key players whom they believe will get them the trophy, and I also believe that they are arrogant and ambitious enough that they'd not just settle on being 'top four'.

    Thats a future hypothetical scenario though. Coming to the present, does it make them more likely to spend on this summer window? Frankly, looking at the way the league has been shaping up for last two-three years, even a half-brained goblin would say that champions league is the first key for both success in terms of trophies, and success in terms of club making any money. The thing that separates Liverpool from mid table rabble is we have champions league aspirations as a minimum. We want to play in Europe. In that sense, its would be a fair assumption that the same is owner's intention as well, at the least. And if that is the case the same half-brained goblin from earlier would easily tell you that you're not getting into champions league by selling your best players and buying unknown quantities. With that in mind, the only reasonable possibility is that we will keep our best players and add to them with further quality.

    It will be a step by step process. Just look at Tottenham. How many years have they spent just hanging around there or thereabouts until now they finally have a manager and a squad that can realistically aim for top four and more? I think PL fans from all around the world have been kind of spoilt by recent success of City and Chelsea. Spend two or three hundred million, win the league and everyone goes home happy. It will be very difficult to compete with these guys, thats for sure. Its probably what supporters of teams like Dortmund or Athletico also feel when they think of the vast gap between them and Munich or them and Barca and Real. But those same teams have also shown in recent times that it is not impossible to win in such situations. Lets wait for the summer and see where it takes us.
     
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  4. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    He wasnt a key player for almost two seasons - he was barely that for little more than a year. He started performing around November, and was out of form by around the Feb/march the following season when the whole contract sage blew up.

    How does offering to pay him £100k p/w equate with treating him like anything but a top bracket player?

    For all of his importance to the team, he was still a very raw player with potential to improve to be an even better one - and that staying at Liverpool guarenteed him regular playing time that would help him develop. That was the point Brendan and the club were trying to make in response to Sterlings camp who had been making an issue about the contract from early on in the first half of the season.
     
  5. NYRhockey

    NYRhockey Well-Known Member

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    The hiring of Klopp and giving him the keys to the barn is a strong enough statement of intent that they want to win.
     
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  6. Kaliberbeats

    Kaliberbeats Well-Known Member

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    Nah, they just want access to the Champs League money. When it comes to winning trophies they have no ambition.
     
  7. Mascot88

    Mascot88 Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders Moderator

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    My recollection was that he had a really bright start in Rodgers first season, went off the boil, before coming back around November of 2013 and becoming integral to the title run in. The following year he was well established in the side, and firmly able to say he was one of the three best players at the club. For most of that season he was solely carrying the teams attacking threat. Also not helped by Brendan dicking him around at wing back at the like.

    The time to give him the wage bump-but-your-still-a-kid thing was at the end of 13/14.

    I appreciate the point the club was trying to make to him, but a better way to have made that point would have been to not end up having to rely on him so heavily as they did. He was first name on the team sheet a lot of the time, and it's then unrealistic to turn to him and say "There, there young lad. Don't get ideas above your station. Now here's 50p to spend in the sweet shop, so run along'.

    What also didn't help was the club leaking shit to the press about what a greedy bastard he was being. That helps no-one. From the Emre Can business, it doesn't look like they are learning this one.
     
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  8. NYRhockey

    NYRhockey Well-Known Member

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    Yea i heard in the EL final against Sevilla John Henry called Klopp during half time, asked to go on speaker phone and told the team to collapse in the second half. He was quoted as saying "whatever you were doing in the first half, stop it immediately. we don't want to win any trophies".
     
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  9. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    I feel something strange is happening in that you two are talking past each other, but it was reportedly 100K a week guaranteed. That is not "kid money" and certainly not something that justifies such a dismissive response as that.
     
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  10. Mascot88

    Mascot88 Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders Moderator

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    Well, I should also say that, as I mentioned before, I'm not letting Young Master Sterling off the hook - his behaviour through this wasn't great, and I do accept that 100k a week is a lot for someone that young.

    But I do think that the club, by virtue of getting itself in the position - through failure to invest - of having to rely so heavily in a young lad, can't really complain when he wants top money. I can't completely blame him for thinking 'I'm pretty much first name on the team sheet - and they are offering me less money that some of the fucking wastrels who can't get a game. I'm off'.

    What I am absolutely not going to do is fall for the clubs PR, that Sterling was a greedy little bastard we are best rid of, he engineered a move duplicitously , and the club were innocent victims in the whole affair. The club played their part in Sterlings departure - there was a lot they made a complete mess of.

    Like with Can now (why have we found out what he is looking for in his contract?) his attachment to the club was not going to be fostered by engineering a situation where thousands of people were screaming abuse at him every time he got the ball.

    The only time we should ever hear about a new contract is when a new one has been signed.

    I'll stop there as I don't want to spoil this splendid thread. Forgive the embellishment of my point.
     
  11. Kaliberbeats

    Kaliberbeats Well-Known Member

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    Feel better now? Not hugged enough as a child?
     
  12. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    The club didn't fail to invest, it just did so poorly.

    Other than stevie and Studge, who else can you name earning more than £100k at the club that season?

    As for Can, presumably that story was in response to the Mirror saying Can was looking for around he was 75k
     
  13. NYRhockey

    NYRhockey Well-Known Member

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    No need to get feisty, amigo. If anything, these rumors agree with your assessment that they have no ambition.

    Not sure if you are aware, but after we lost the League Cup to City last year, a Boston newspaper (FSG also own the RedSox who play out of Boston) quoted an article from The Rio Times where, get this, apparently Henry had given Lucas and Coutinho orders to miss their penalty kicks if it got to that stage. "When we won it in 2012 it was one of the worst experiences in my life and this Jurgen fella seems to want to win trophies. We wanted to make sure this is did not happen again because we don't want the fans to get the wrong impression that we have the ambition to win trophies"

    Now, i don't know the accuracy of the article (also need to account for potential Portuguese to English translation issues) but it would totally make sense with what you're claiming.
     
  14. Mascot88

    Mascot88 Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders Moderator

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    This thread was full of really interesting, mature, and respectful discussion. Let's keep it that way please.
     
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  15. Mascot88

    Mascot88 Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders Moderator

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    Just guessing (as it should be) But aside from Gerrard and Sturridge, I think Balotelli was on more than that. Pretty sure Glen Johnson was thereabouts as well. Hendo, as VC may have been nudging it too.

    From the others I wouldn't have been surprised if Skrtel, Sakho, Kolo, and Lovren had been north of 80k
     
  16. NYRhockey

    NYRhockey Well-Known Member

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    Balotelli was @ 72K/wk from what i could find.
     
  17. Kaliberbeats

    Kaliberbeats Well-Known Member

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    The double standards on here are very confusing. It seems to be do as I say not as I do.
     
  18. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Balotelli took a pay cut, he was getting £90K a week. Not more than 100K.
     
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  19. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    Balotelli was under. Johnson was in the last year of his contract and there was some talk that the final year saw his wage fall.

    Sakho was on 80 with his new contract I thin, and Kolo also. Skrtel may have been 70k but these are much lower than 100k.
     
  20. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Which proves FSG spent on transfer fees but rarely burn on wages, which puzzles me.....
     
  21. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    Is there a tax/depreciation advantage on fees over wages?

    I would guess the difficulty is that player's on high wages would also usually attract a high fee and we couldn't always afford both?
     
  22. Mascot88

    Mascot88 Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders Moderator

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    Fair enough.
     
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  23. Mascot88

    Mascot88 Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders Moderator

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    Apologies - should have pasted @NYRhockey as well. It was a *very gentle* note to bear in mind that this thread has been conducted in really good spirit, disagreements respectful, and I'd like it to stay that way.
     
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  24. Nevoo34

    Nevoo34 Sleeping with the enemy

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    The thing I don't get is our obsession with 'World Class managers'. Not specifically Liverpool supporters but supporters as a whole.

    Obviously a top manager is a bonus but surely it should be the icing on the cake. That extra percentage that transforms a good side into a great side. You look at the England Rugby Union team and Eddie Jones has done a terrific job. The thing is though he has taken a good team that was winning 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 5 in the six nations and made them virtually unbeatable at the moment. The thing is though he has only been able to do that because everything was already there, it just needed tweaking and fine tuning.

    It is a similar scenario to what happens at Chelsea where a new manager inherits a quality squad of players and just tweaks it and fine tunes it. When we were successful that is what happened here. The likes of Bob or Joe didn't have to be world class managers who had been successful elsewhere. They benefited from taking over a world class structure that needed tweaking and fine tuning. We were the best run Club in the World and it just needed men with the real intelligence and nous to tweak things keep us ahead of the pack. They didn't inherit hugely imbalanced squads that needed gutting every few seasons.

    For me our decline has coincided with our over reliance on the manager. We do well when our managers beat the odds and over achieve. Unfortunately that isn't sustainable so we have an exceptional season followed by seasons of par. As I said for me your manager should be the icing on the cake. At Liverpool we tend to take managers to our heart and then burden them with impossible expectations. When they cannot over achieve season in season out we lose confidence in them and it goes tits up.

    Personally I think our problem is that exceptional managers are like a putting a sticking plaster over a sore. For a while everything looks fine but unless you address the underlying problems then the end result is inevitable. The problem as I see it is that we have ceased to be a well run Club from a Football perspective. For me this predates the present owners and goes back to the early 90's.

    Imagine what would happen to us if we lost Klopp. It would be like Sevilla losing Emery or Southampton losing Pochettino except both Clubs actually improved. They did so because both Clubs are incredibly well run from a footballing perspective and a really top manager is just the icing on the cake. I get the impression that what is holding us back is that a top manager doesn't get to add that extra few percentage points that does an 'Eddie Jones' because that extra edge is wasted covering up problems within the structure of the Club.

    If you look back at say Ged's time or Rafa's time then the general reading of the situation is that they were the problem. If Ged's team were only more adventurous or if only Rafa's team could of put away the park the bus teams and performed in the League like they did in Europe. For me it is much simpler imagine either of them taking over from Bill or Bob. Imagine them inheriting an extremely well run Club with a great structure and a squad that only needed tweaking and fine tuning. Or for that matter Brendan or Jurgen taking over a side that only needed tweaking.

    There is a general perception on the forum that this is a pivotal summer with FSG at a crossroads which lead me to open this thread. A perception that if FSG are more ambitious and back Klopp then everything will fall into place. I am not so sure. Ask yourself this say we make the top 4 and FSG get outside investment that gives us a huge transfer kitty. Would you trust us to have the guile, the nous and the contacts to pull off the kind of transfer coups that would take us to the next level ?

    The irony is that our windows when we have gone big in terms of expenditure have been amongst our worst. We do okay when we are cherrypicking players that the manager rates from smaller Clubs primarily Southampton but when we try and make brave innovative moves we tend to fall fat on our face. The reality is that cherrypicking players from your rivals will only get you so far, analysing players that are already plying there trade here generally means you overpay for decent to good players with the odd Mane shaped exception.

    The problem is that if you wait for players to be near enough certainties based on stats then you are likely to be in a very long queue and you only get exceptional players if the top Clubs pass on say a Mane the way United did. What you get is a squad of decent to good players that has cost you a huge amount in transfer fees and you end up in a situation were you end up overpaying them because you don't have the confidence in your scouting network to replace them or improve on them.

    That for me is the difference between a recruitment strategy based on analysis and one based on scouting. Analysis allows you and everyone else to see which players have already broken through whereas scouting allows you to see the players about to breakthrough. For me apart from 05-07 we have been stuck in a cycle were we accumulate a team of good players but don't have the nous to recruit the game changers.

    If you inherit a mis-matched squad of differing abilities then it is quite easy to create a team full of good players. The problem is that you end up against a glass ceiling. The only way to breakthrough that ceiling is to replace your good players with great ones. To go from a Didi to an Alonso from a Crouch to a Torres.

    The only way to do that is to get in before the more established teams. If we had waited for Alonso or Torres to become established World class players with exceptional numbers then we wouldn't of been able to recruit them. We bought them on the cusp.

    The OP and a number of posters agree that this is a pivotal close season but for me it is more about getting our recruitment right rather than FSG's ambition even if their ambition is important. For me it is more about having the football intelligence to see that Torres was being wasted on the wing at Atletico, that Masch was far better than West Ham's bench and that Alonso could cope with the hustle and bustle of the Premier League. No amount of poring over stats will buy you that knowledge.
     
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  25. Artrain

    Artrain Well-Known Member

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    Yup, one would think so. But it also shows their preferred path. They didn't go for a big club type manager in Ancelotti. They went for someone who does more with less resources, suggesting perhaps that whatever it is they want to achieve, it is always going to be through moderation.
     
  26. Gazmaninaus

    Gazmaninaus Well-Known Member

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    Getting back to the what constitutes value for money. It all depends on what the owners want. If it's success on the pitch, then its spending on players in their prime, getting the most out of each individual, for the sole purpose of winning things.
    .
    If its for success at club and financial level, then its making sure your debt is serviceable, wages coming down, price of club going up, sponsors coming in, and the ground being redeveloped.
    .
    Making the club more attractive to possible sales, would seem the type of deal, we have going, when you look at all the business in the club. Not saying, their not getting that right first, then moving on to the second, pitch success.
    .
    Personally, I don't see any value in anything football related, so as a fan, I only see value, in a player who suits our needs, and produces results. All the other stuff, might be relevant, to management, but not to me, as a fan.
    .
    70+ for Suarez, who scored 30 goals for a season, for my club, is not good value, but 70 million for debt reduction, etc, is good business practice. There is no real value for money in football.
     
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  27. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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    One of the finest posts I have read on the forums! I completely agree, Klopp did exactly that with the Wijnaldum signing and Milner at left-back. It gives me confidence knowing that our manager has the 'football intelligence' you mention.
     
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  28. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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    I think Matip and Milner for free is the best value for (no?) money. Coutinho, Study, Alonso are all great value for money for us. Pogba on the other hand is a poor value of money.

    I don't think our owners are like the cowboys that preceded them. They seem intent on making us as successful as possible, but only after stabilizing the clubs finances, which we are imo. After all, only on-pitch success would make a big club such as ours financially successful in the long run.
     
  29. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    On the contrary, they were in for Ancellotti. Met him once or twice, but he was already being lined up for the Job and Bayern and didnt want to take anything when we were looking because he was recovering from a back operation.
     
  30. Hope in your heart

    Hope in your heart Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts... Admin

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    Ancelotti said that he was never approached by LFC. Here is a link with a direct quote from a serious enough source:

    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor...elotti-never-spoke-liverpool-anfield-10287957
     

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