Bundesliga 2016/17

Discussion in 'European Football' started by Nikola, Jul 8, 2016.

  1. Cologne-Liverpool

    Cologne-Liverpool Well-Known Member

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    lol It's not like the Bundesliga wasn't corporate and capitalist enough before Red Bull came along...
    And I thought "do-gooders" was the official derogatory term for people like myself on here...:?:;-)
     
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  2. inaiq

    inaiq "Some people feel the rain others just get wet"

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    Hey, You are not alone... lol
     
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  3. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Not really mate. Yes they found a hole in the 50+1 system, they exploit it and now they are leading the pack. I give you your RB Leipzig and raise you Manchester City. Before the Arabs took over, they were not even close to top half of the table, let alone top 4. They get relegated in every couple of seasons at the top flight. They have more second division title than Chelsea has the first/Premier League title. They were a none entity, United looked at them as their really poor neighbour and suddenly they are now title contenders, all down to one thing - big money investor. Sounds familiar?
     
  4. Cologne-Liverpool

    Cologne-Liverpool Well-Known Member

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    RB Leipzig didn't even EXIST before Red Bull founded the club.
    I get what you're saying, but it's also a completely different football/business environment in the Bundesliga, the 50+1 rule (that is being slowly undermined) being one of the differences among many. Let's not argue about which is worse, let's just say both are bad and it's a different situation/circumstances..ok?;-)
    And btw: I might be a foreigner but I've been following the PL for many years, so I'm not completely clueless about recent history;-)
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2016
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  5. Livvy

    Livvy Well-Known Member

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    Let's wait and see what happens next, there are strong rumours in Germany that RB wants to buy an english club next and will do the next Leipzig thing in England, i've already heard about Leeds could be a candidate.
     
  6. Dortmund fan

    Dortmund fan It's fishing time!

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    Leeds? Huddersfield? Burnley?

    Ah, ok.
     
  7. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    It won't be as easy in England as they could do in Germany, as it has been proven that there are too much money in Premier League compared to Bundesliga. IN Germany you aim to take on Bayern, in England you have at least 6-7 clubs you need to overcome. Not to mention them Chinese are coming in to spoil the party as well. I think they would be far more successful if they do it in Spain, Italy or France.
     
  8. mattyhurst

    mattyhurst TIA Regular

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    They are just another MK "fucking" Dons, I heard Charlton again who often get mentioned and London is prime for that kind of takeover, plus they have cunty bosses.
     
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  9. inaiq

    inaiq "Some people feel the rain others just get wet"

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    I was wondering how best to phrase my post about both and, thank you, you have captured it, I was debating a version of your word and twats but twats seemed to polite.
     
  10. mattyhurst

    mattyhurst TIA Regular

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    Knob cheeses is a polite version
     
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  11. inaiq

    inaiq "Some people feel the rain others just get wet"

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    you posted a couple of websites about campaigns related lower league clubs which i have been following and learnt a lot.
    As great as the EPL/Championship is, there is a whole world of football outside of those 2 leagues that does not get enough attention, there is some great football and stories there.
     
  12. Dortmund fan

    Dortmund fan It's fishing time!

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    Ancelotti has more and more problems: can't win last games and now Boateng is injured.

    Even Bayern friendly media started to write criticism and miss Guardiola.
     
  13. Lostmyfunk 3421

    Lostmyfunk 3421 Standing on the verge of getting it on

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    I liked Ancelotti and then he became the flavor of the month on here and 1 in 3 fans wanted him over Kloppp in the poll...couldn't believe that, as he seems so passive since his Milan days, kinda looks the part, but doesn't really do much. They should have kept that dude a few years back Jupp fella....anyway they were the best team in Europe and went downhill after.. We got Klopp, best thing in Germany and Europe by a mile..
     
  14. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    I would agree with the former, but questionable of the latter. Even in Germany he was not exactly the best thing as you mentioned that Jupp fella and that certain Spaniard he could not beat during his time there. I like our manager, and I think we got a steal when he agreed to be our manager. But I won't hype him that high until his record starts to show. He's a great manager, but the best thing in Europe who hasn't won a European Cup/Champs League? Nah.
     
  15. Nikola

    Nikola Optimist with a bit of experience. Admin

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    Since his Milan days, Ancelotti has won: Premier League, FA Cup, Ligue 1 title, Champions League, Spanish cup and a bunch of minor trophies. Granted, PSG was a really easy ride (and Bayern, too - I was a bit disappointed that he took over there) but the rest certainly weren't. He's a true world class manager and I still can't believe that after all those bad years, Liverpool got themselves into situation where they could choose between a manager like him and a manager like Klopp.
     
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  16. Zoran

    Zoran Fighting like beavers.

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    It's the first time in while that I find a lot of these top clubs a bit lazy (or simply not convincing enough, some of them relying on certain individuals) with their performances so far. Nobody really stands out so far (though City are exciting, certainly a prospect with a lot of potential). Enjoyed Dortmund beating Bayern the other day. Could've been more, it's like the likes of Aubameyang and Cavani will always miss some incredible chances in a game.
     
  17. Arminius

    Arminius FSG PR plant Moderator

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    Just saw the Leipzig result and decided to look at the table - what the hell is going on? Koln in FOURTH?!? How will they flirt with relegation if they are safe by March?
     
  18. Dortmund fan

    Dortmund fan It's fishing time!

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    They could keep Timo Horn and Jonas Hector last summer.
    Their management is very professional.
    They are not a rich club but they have Hennes and tradition.
    And Cologne is a big city, some players don't want to leave it.
    So, they have a good squad this season.
    Their central forward is the best scorer in Bundesliga now:

    Anthony Modeste (FC Köln) 12 goals
    Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang (Borussia Dortmund) 12 goals
    Robert Lewandowski (FC Bayern München) 7 goals
    Timo Werner (RB Leipzig) 7 goals
    Yunus Malli (Mainz 05) 6 goals

    Their 4th place in the table is really deserved.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
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  19. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    After having a bit of a chat here with you with regards to this team, I tried to find some of the games that I could get to see how they played. I was expecting them to have some heavy hitters in there, some big names like Dortmund and Bayern. I thought they will have at least half a dozen players I recognise from the Euro or World Cup, someone that could make a difference in any top flight team. Then further checks, I found from transfermrkt site that their squad worth is slightly higher than FC Cologne, some £2m more than Cologne. Their 3 big name signing were Keita (21), Burke (19) and Werner (20). They did signed a centre half who was supposed to be our target I believe, this Papadopoulos fella for slightly more than £5m.

    They didn't exactly do a City or Chelsea, heck they actually did a Leicester. Their players are all not a household name, they are young and hungry for success. They are not playing some blistering football, but they are getting results from potent attacking players. Like Leicester, they are owned by their sponsors, King Power - Red Bull. The biggest difference is they are a new club, new boys coming in to mess up the traditional footballing clubs, and that might also mess up the DFB ideal world of 50+1 ruling.

    I can't help but felt odd if I ever criticise them too much because they don't have 100 year old history in football, after all I am supporting a club in England where football teams are mostly if not all owned by big business ventures hoping to make some money and name for themselves. Look at Roman Abramovich, nobody knows who he is before Chelsea. Look at Liverpool FC and FSG, not a single soul outside the US knows who they are until they took over Liverpool FC, elevated their brand to some thousand folds in the international stage.

    For me, they are a new club that has a big support from their owners. They didn't pull a Chelsea or a City to date. If they actually win the Bundesliga, they must have done something really right because through all the Ribery, Muller, Aubameyang, Chicharito in the league, they have none of those but able to take beat them in the league. Much like Leicester did against those mighty United, City and Chelsea.... and us too.

    Sorry for this long post. But for an English football fan point of view, they aren't really plastic, they are just a new kids on the block showing the old boys club they aren't exactly invincible.
     
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  20. Dortmund fan

    Dortmund fan It's fishing time!

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    This week Uli Hoeness said RB Leipzig are Bayern's new rival. He even used the word 'enemy'.

    Well, in 10 years Bundesliga will have 5-6 clubs which will be compete for the title.
     
  21. Cologne-Liverpool

    Cologne-Liverpool Well-Known Member

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    Eddie, this would require a very long answer, to explain why it's not just me but many, many football fans in Germany who have serious "issues" with this club and the debate and whole atmosphere is so heated (inlcuding some pretty questionable actions by other fan groups). In short - there was/is a reason why I thought that the ManCity comparisons only go so far - this is a different situation/context in many ways. I will try to give you a more detailed (and probably pretty long) answer to explain my reasons one of these days - ok?;-)
    Apart from that - I really think it's cool that you show so much interest and did some research - seriously:well done:
     
  22. Liverpool forever

    Liverpool forever New Member

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    I have to agree with you Eddie here. I also got carried away with the notion that they are a plastic club, who are like man city and chelsea. Therefore I decided to watch their last match against Freiburg, which they won 4-1.
    Then I realized that they didn't have any big name, big superstar.
    The only one name i could identify was emil forsberg because he was linked to us in Summer and after searching back then I didn't fancy a player from bundesliga 2.
    However he has 5 goals and 7 assists in 11 matches already and he is heartbeat of their team. They are really playing very attractive football at the moment.

    I still don't get the idea why people are hating them so much, just because they are turning out to be rivals to their beloved teams and how people still defend bayern against Leipzig, (by quoting they have history and culture) as to me bayern at present is a club who is weakening opponents on purpose by robbing them of their best players.
     
  23. Cologne-Liverpool

    Cologne-Liverpool Well-Known Member

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    People hated them BEFORE the season, in fact they were equally hated in the lower leagues, they were hated by many basically from the day the club was "founded", there's a whole movement in the fan scenes all over Germany against them for years. This has nothing to do with how they are doing at the moment or what kind of football they are playing right now.
    The point is not about them having the most money in the Bundesliga (for now) or the biggest superstars. And I don't know who "quoted" something about history or culture when it comes to Bayern.
    This is a systemic issue, with Red Bull undermining the current system and rules (which apply for others), taking advantages of loop holes, taking advantage of a stadium built with tax payers money and many other issues. They're also already used as an example by people who would like to completely overhaul the current system, getting rid of the 50+1 rule once and for all, for example. This might mean nothing to you, but many German football fans don't want to end up like the PL in this regard.
    As I said, this is a much more complex and complicated issue imo and it would require a longer and detailed answer, not sure if it's worth it - if you guys want to like RB Leipzig, fine, you don't have to agree with me or anyone else...
     
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  24. Arminius

    Arminius FSG PR plant Moderator

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    Isn't one of the major points of differentiation between what has happened at City and what is happening at Leipzig the sheer commerciality of it? Citeh has the massive Etihad tie-in, obviously, but the club colours have continued on, logos have changed but not to make them more Etihad-inspired. RB Leipzig seems like it is basically a walking Red Bull advertisement, right up to the absolute limits that current rules allow.
     
  25. Cologne-Liverpool

    Cologne-Liverpool Well-Known Member

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    The commerciality is one of the many other issues I was talking about. Personally I find other aspects more problematic. They are basically the final nail in the coffin to the whole Bundesliga system -but nevermind...I've already had a longer discussion with Hope about this, in the end I think he pretty much agreed that they are highly problematic and could understand the anger of German football fans. It's all on page 2 in this thread, unfortunately the links/articles are in German though.
     
  26. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    I get it why fans are agitated and not liking them, I get it. Much like how fans in the EPL not very pleased with the likes of Chelsea and City. That part I get. It is all down to the unknown and unfamiliar. After some 12 years into these Oligarch play thing, eventually the league and the fans got used to it and moved on. Accepted the fact that football is no longer a working man's game, and the elite is coming in to use it as their play thing. That is what I see when it comes to the feeling of football fans in Germany now and the English fans. The difference is in the people who runs the league. DFB is leaning more towards development of the sport and making sure Bayern is sitting pretty up top so that they can groom the national team through them (and a couple of other big clubs in Germany), while the Premier League governing body cares more about the commercial viability of the business and virtually don't give a shit about the national team. I get that.

    But for me, RB Leipzig is more Leicester City than they are City or Chelsea. That's the point I was trying to put across. If anyone behaves like United, Chelsea, City, Barcelona and Real Madrid, it is Bayern Munich, and that is the club everyone in the league should hate as they are weakening all their rivals with the money they have.
     
  27. Cologne-Liverpool

    Cologne-Liverpool Well-Known Member

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    No, I'm afraid you don't get the problem. The ManCity comparison doesn't work, because it's a different system and culture. You might think that member -owned system, including the 50+1 rule is stupid or outdated, but many, many football fans here disagree. Again, it's a different football culture, you can say that you think the PL system is better, but imo you should also understand and respect other traditions and cultures. It's also deeply problematic when certain clubs get special exceptions to rules. Hoffenheim btw had another brilliant first Bundesliga season (at least the first half), another club who got an exception. They weren't the richest club either, nor is Leverkusen. These clubs got the exception because of the close ties of the companies to the city/region. Red Bull found a loop hole in that system and exploited it.
     
  28. Dortmund fan

    Dortmund fan It's fishing time!

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    There are too many reasons why people don't like RB Leipzig.
    Some of them don't like Red Bull as drink, say "it's not healthy".
    They don't have any problems with Leipzig as city but with Red Bull as sponsor.
     
  29. Arminius

    Arminius FSG PR plant Moderator

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    I think one of the critical differences is that Leipzig is a more fundamental challenge to the way things are done in German football than Chelsea/Citeh have been to English football. The idea of a wealthy owner supposedly 'investing' in a club to give a competitive advantage is absolutely normal, and fans basically demanded it. It is just that was really the local factory owner, such as Blackburn 20 years ago. No one ever envisioned what that would look like scaled up to billionaire status.
     
  30. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    That's exactly it, the culture. The English football fans have accepted the fact that football is now the billionaire play thing, while the German football fans not wanting it to become a norm in their league. They used the 50+1 rule to their favour by making it expensive for regular match goers to subscribe to their shares. I get that. Like I said, I have read through everything about them for a few days now. I have also outlined what DFB sees in terms of their league while what English Premier League governing bodies see in Premier League. Very different point of views when it comes to how they want the league to progress.

    So yes it is the culture, which is something that made it different. The fans in England is accepting that as part of football and German football fans are not willing to take it in. I get that. Which is why I don't see much wrong with it, while you and all German football fans are up in arms about it.

    For your information, before FSG walked into the club, I was and still am the biggest advocate of supporter ownership. You can ask anyone of the old members in here and they can tell you exactly how I feel about it. But I have accepted the fact that billionaires will take the football team in England as their play thing, or sports business owners will use it to generate more revenue or value to their company, monetary terms or otherwise.
     

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