Copa Centenario 2016

Discussion in 'World Football' started by RedCanuck099, Jun 1, 2016.

?

Who will win it?

  1. Brazil

  2. Argentina

  3. Uruguay

  4. Chile

  5. Colombia

  6. USA

  7. Mexico

  8. Other

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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  2. El Dorado

    El Dorado Well-Known Member

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    I don't know enough about Brazilian football to suggest who should be manager, but Brazil have lost the tune on who they are, in my opinion. Look at Italy. The personnel change, but the team always plays the same way: defense oriented (even cynically so), counter attacking, happy to win any way that's available, even to include insulting your mother so badly that you head butt one of them in the chest.

    What's happened to the beautiful game that used to rip other teams apart. The talent is still there, even some of the flair, but the overwhelming fluidity has been lost. Maybe the rest of the footballing world has just caught up, but I think I would look for the manager who is successful in Brazilian club football and epitomizes the Brazilian style of play.
     
  3. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    It hasnt existed for 30 years, it just took people 20 years to realise this. Much of what people think they know about Brazilian football is a myth. What Brazil have looked like in the last 10 years is not an accident, it is the expected result of an extensive coaching system designed to produce players exactly like this.
     
  4. Rattlesnake888

    Rattlesnake888 Well-Known Member

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    You must have missed the brilliant footbal they played in the 2002 World Cup and Confederations Cup in 2005.
     
  5. El Dorado

    El Dorado Well-Known Member

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    Hope you will elaborate. The 1994 team with Bebeto and Romario were definitely beautiful game passers and scorers atop a solid defensive base with Dunga himself reinforcing the spine.

    Then the Ronaldo-led squad of the 2002 World Cup was definitely free flowing and deadly, overwhelming teams with its control of the ball. That's my recollection anyway.
     
  6. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    Brilliant football, or pragmatic football that took advantage of a couple of great attacking players who developed despite the system of Brazilian development rather than because of it?

    No they werent and most Brazilians hate that team and identify as the moment that solidified Brazil's change of direction into pragmatic football.

    The romantic idea about Brazilian football is that it was learned on the street, but for as long as I have been alive it was always academy driven, but at least when I was a young child it was with the focus of developing players like Coutinho. However, as a federation they reacted to the world cup losses in 86 and 90 by deciding to systemically alter their developmental approach and start prioritizing athleticism over talent. 30 years later and look at most good teams around Europe now who have a Brazilian. Almost all of them are big, robust, fairly basic players. The likes of Ronaldinho and Neymar who came up after this shift in direction did despite the system rather than being a consequence of the so called natural flair Brazilian football has.
     
  7. Rattlesnake888

    Rattlesnake888 Well-Known Member

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    Lucio, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Rivaldo,Ronaldinho and Ronaldo but you dismiss the 2002 World Cup winners as being pragmatic apart from a couple of good attackers!!!!
     
  8. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    Lucio, Cafu and Roberto Carlos are exactly what I'm talking about - physical specimens who are able to either run all day or physically compete with the "more athletic" Europeans. The players Brazil has spent the last 30 years trying to produce are Fernando, Fernandinho and Willian. The likes of Coutinho come about by accident, and when they do Brazilian managers don't really know what to do with them.
     
  9. Rattlesnake888

    Rattlesnake888 Well-Known Member

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    Lucio, Cafu and Roberto Carlos were brilliant athletes but they also had the technique to match. Naming these players to show a lack of abilityamong Brazilian players is ludicrous.

    I agree that Brazil do not produce good central midfield players and have relied on stoppers like Gilberto Silva or Emerson rather than talented ball players.
     
  10. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but I didnt make that point. I said they have systemically and actively coached the flair out of their game in favour of a more pragmatic style built on athleticism.
     
  11. Zinedine Biscan

    Zinedine Biscan The patient one

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  12. Rattlesnake888

    Rattlesnake888 Well-Known Member

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    Brazil still have plenty of excellent players but not need to find a manager to get the best out of them.

    Dunga is a defensive coach who got found out at World Cup 2010 and it is crazy that he got brought back to manage the national side.
     
    El Dorado likes this.
  13. El Dorado

    El Dorado Well-Known Member

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    All sports have changed in the last 30 years, and all athletes in all sports are now more athletic and fit. I don't buy that it means the soul of Brazilian football needs to have changed. How are Willian, Marcelo, Neymar, Coutinho, Kaka, Firmino, even Hulk out of sync with a flair-style of football? More athletic than players of yesteryear but still uniquely Brazilian in the way they play. Great ball handlers, inventive passers and shooters. There's still more of that type of player coming out of Brazil than coming out of other countries. Brazil still does produce a distinctive type of offensive player, IMHO.
     
  14. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    You asked where the flair has gone. I gave you an answer and it is backed up by the Tim Vickery piece Zinny posted. Vickery has written about this extensively over the last 10 years or so. As I said, people do not want to see it because the idea of samba football in the soul of these players is too attractive to let go, but this is what Brazilian football is today, and it is the direct result of the conscious decision they made in the 80s and then something they doubled down on after the 94 win. Sure, they still produce very good players, but England had Paul Gascoigne and Glenn Hoddle in the 80s and 90s as well and that sure as shit wasnt the result of a developmental system that encouraged those sorts of players. However, this is a problem that has affected not jjust player developemnt, but also coach development and mentality, and this is part of the part of the problem the Brazil team now. Even if it was possible to put together a side that could play like the team of my childhood that people associate with brazilian football, they dont really have the coaches to figure out how to get it out of the players anymore. Watch the Brazilian league, or even any of their entrants ever in the World Club Championships. They are all like an even more cynical version of Jose Mourinho football.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2016
    fcukManU likes this.
  15. SGM

    SGM TIA Legend

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    Anybody watch the US Ecuador match? John Brooks has been an absolute monster in this tourney. Hasn't made a mistake over the last 3 games. I am eager to see how he does against Argentina but if he can keep this level would love for Klopp to look at him.
     
    gr_sounder likes this.
  16. darkvoid

    darkvoid Tiocfaidh ár lá

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    Na he's ok where he is thanks. Buying players on the back of playing well in a few games at an international competition is usually not the greatest idea and has never really worked out for us. Diouf and Diao remember them?
     
  17. Kanonkop

    Kanonkop Well-Known Member

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    I agree with your views on Brazil. Samba football died a long time ago unfortunately. The so called current "flair" players cannot be compared to the real "flair" players of yesteryear.
     
    darkvoid likes this.
  18. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    Both were bought for their club form and deals signed prior to the world cup, or in Diouff's case the day after Senegal's first game.
     
  19. darkvoid

    darkvoid Tiocfaidh ár lá

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    My bad

    Still don't want him though probably be a good sell getting a few more American ' customers'on board
     
  20. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    From what I have seen Americans arent influenced in that way by which clubs their players play for. I have only met a few American Spurs fans, but they are all Jewish. I have never met anyone who became a Spurs fan or spent any of their money on club merchandise because of Clint Dempsey or Brad Friedel. Likewise with Roma because of Bradley. Or Everton and Donovan. It's possible none of these players played an important enough role on a marketable enough or meaningful enough side to get Americans invested, but if those 4 players are not good enough to get over that bar then I think we'll be waiting a while to find an American good enough to have the requisite impact.
     
  21. gr_sounder

    gr_sounder The Lurking One

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    I will admit that I was a huge Brad Friedel fan (for my money still the best keeper the USA has produced)... so I did actually start following certain teams while he was there.

    I was so excited that he had a chance to play for Liverpool... (was a Liverpool fan from the 80s) ... but unfortunately it didn't work out (in part I still believe due to internal conflicts at the club and work visas --- but I digress).

    If someone like John Brooks were to come here, it might bring a few more folks to the fold... but likely they would be fans of Brooks or the USA first. USA players playing abroad don't really bring in the merchandising dollars, so the only reason to bring him in would be to actually be a first team player.

    So... is he good enough for Liverpool? I don't know. He plays for Hertha Berlin and has 95 caps for them and turned 23 this past January. I am not sure how he compares with Joel Matip... who is 1 year older... and they come from the same league.
    If you look at ratings from Kicker... Brooks compares very favorably with Matip... and actually has better more consistent ratings.

    So if you're saying you don't want him... that's fine... but if you don't want him but you're happy we have Matip... then I might want to know the rationale for that.
     
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  22. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    What I am saying is I am yet to see Americans spending habits respond to the presence of an American player at any European club. I at no point commented on his quality as a player. FWIW though he isn't remotely good enough, and while I havent seen that much of Matip, the fact he was one of the highest rated CBs in the league last year (based on the eye test, not stats) and is wanted by our manager is good enough for me.
     
  23. gr_sounder

    gr_sounder The Lurking One

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    That's fine... and all good.
    I freely admit that Americans spending would NOT be a reason to hire any player from the USA.

    I hope Matip does well for us ... I really do.
    Brooks will have a test tonight for sure against Argentina.
     
  24. spizfromoz

    spizfromoz Well-Known Member

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    Brooks looked OK to me when I watched him first game.
     
  25. darkvoid

    darkvoid Tiocfaidh ár lá

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    The US already 2-0 down to Argentina after 32 minutes so I'd say it's good night to them
     
  26. El Dorado

    El Dorado Well-Known Member

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    That was ugly. What a free kick by Messi, though. I thought DeAndre Yedlin was the only US player to have a good game. His defending has really improved after his stint under Sam Allardyce. I was struck by how we (USA) looked lethargic; no real interest in pressing the ball. You just lay off of Argentina, and they will kill you.
     
  27. darkvoid

    darkvoid Tiocfaidh ár lá

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    Did the US even have a shot at goal last night?
     
  28. gr_sounder

    gr_sounder The Lurking One

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    No they didn't.

    Seriously... that was a game that really showed where the USA is... a 2nd tier team.
    I had a feeling the game would be bad, but not that bad. It looks like the USA hasn't really come very far. It was like watching a game of professionals against schoolboys. Argentina did pretty much anything they wanted, and toyed with the USA all game. At no point did the USA really look like they could do anything unless the Argentines allowed them to do it.

    I am so disappointed in what has happened over the last few years under Klinnsmann. I know it's not all his fault, but the USA is largely still a team that gets results because they work hard... there is damn little real technical ability and few that can really play with the best players in the world.

    Congrats to Argentina... they were a complete team.

    Finally... I'm so thankful that the USA didn't resort to fouling constantly. I'm also thankful Argentina wasn't diving.
     
  29. darkvoid

    darkvoid Tiocfaidh ár lá

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    Watched the first 35 minutes and tbh it was over once the 2nd goal went in. The US have never been a good side but surely a semi final appearance in the copa America is a good thing for them? Klinnsmann isn't a good manager and it scares me to think that those two yank charlatans wanted to sack Rafa for that muppet.
     
  30. mattyhurst

    mattyhurst TIA Regular

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    Scares you, they were still there when Hodgson was appointed.
     

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