Copa Centenario 2016

Discussion in 'World Football' started by RedCanuck099, Jun 1, 2016.

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Who will win it?

  1. Brazil

  2. Argentina

  3. Uruguay

  4. Chile

  5. Colombia

  6. USA

  7. Mexico

  8. Other

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Zinedine Biscan

    Zinedine Biscan The patient one

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    Pains me to offer anything in their defence, but at that point wasn't the club basically taken out of their control? As far as I recall, wasn't the Hodge pretty much a Purslow appointment?

    He also thought it would be great ideas to bow to pressure from a section of the fanbase and flog off Insua and hand Joe Cole, among others, contracts it would take FSG years to clear off the books.
     
  2. gr_sounder

    gr_sounder Always Watching

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    I really don't think Klinnsmann is a bad coach... but I think his management skills work better with better players.

    On the surface, a semi-final appearance in the Copa America is a good thing for the USA.
    That said, it was played in the USA, so we had a bit of home field advantage in that. Also, if I look closely at how they played.
    The 2-0 loss to Colombia was also a game they were never in.
    The 4-0 win over Costa Rica flattered the USA... but it was a good win, but it's a team we know well and have done well against in the past.
    The 1-0 win over Paraguay and the 2-1 win over Ecuador were also good wins... but they were wins where we won by out-fighting the other team, not necessarily out-skilling them.

    There were bright spots though... and for me the players that did well were: DeAndre Yedlin, John Brooks, Bobby Wood.
    Dempsey finished well (largely due to the movement of Wood), and Jeff Cameron and Jermaine Jones also had some good games.

    So, I think many in the USA will claim this was a big success, but I'm not sure it was. The good news is that we got further in the tournament than Mexico did... and we only lost 4-0 to Argentina while they lost 7-0 to Chile.
     
  3. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    The US just doesn't have the players. We're in an era where American players are better than they have ever been*, yet the technical gulf last night was incredible. And that's true even if you exclude an outlier like Messi. Ever Banega is a replaceable cog in the Argentina midfield yet is technically better than any American to ever play at this level. Mascherano is a hard nosed DM, yet is better with the ball than any of the group of allegedly creative players Jurgen can call upon like Bedoya or Zusi. The US has improved a lot under his stewardship. They are now a very solid tier 2 side that would be expected to beat all but the elite South American sides the majority of the time. That is real progress, but, for all Jurgen's faults as a coach, the players are just not there for them to make the next jump and that's the context in which his job performance has to be judged.

    When he was first approached by Gullati about the job he said that not only were the current players not good enough, but that despite all the resources US football had the next generation was also not going to be good enough unless they make drastic changes to their attitude towards development.

    American athletes are used to thinking that the American landscape is a sufficient one to compare oneself against. The best American athletes in many sports are automatically among the best in the world, and despite that obviously not being the case in football it was still the perspective that many of the players have. When I first moved here there were 2 lads I knew and got to play with a few times who were universally regarded as the best 2 players in the country in their age group and they lived about 10 miles apart. In any other country with the aspirations that US football has these players would be thinking of breaking into the Premier League, playing for Real Madrid and the world cup. These two were content to try and beat each other to NCAA honours. The best American player is earning second team all NCAA honours at 18 and thinking "that's great for a Freshman" and Michael Owen is scoring that goal at the world cup against Argentina at the same age.

    Landon Donovan was basically the poster child for this and it was one of the reasons Jurgen disliked him so much and in the end made that decision at the world cup to make an example of him. His point was that Landon might have still been the US' best player, but he wasnt remotely as good the US needed their best player to be and so Jurgen was thinking 10-15 years into the future he dropped him to show the next generation of players that they needed to take a different path.

    He has drastically reduced the influence of the NCAA, something that was a big hindrance to player development, and been a major force the growth of internal player development in MLS sides. He has tried to engineer a 3 tiered developmental plan: 1) if you're good enough to Europe as soon as you can. 2) Failing that get into an MLS academy side. 3) Failing that go to college and we'll see where you are at 22 after you graduate. Absolutely no one though should be going to college and coming out early anymore. If you are good enough to come out early to go to the MLS you shouldnt have been there in the first place. This is going to take a while to bear fruit, and so we still see that most of the best young players he has to call upon are still largely developing from the Thomas Dooley model (US Eligible players developed abroad). But in another 5 years maybe we'll start seeing something a little different, and I dont there is anyone else who would have had the vision, the hard headness and the klout to be able to implement this shift in attitude and approach that he's managed to push through.


    * Except for keeper. To have had 20 years in the safe hands of Keller, Friedel then Howard to then have to go to this is a big come down.
     
  4. El Dorado

    El Dorado Well-Known Member

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    Well said @Limiescouse. I was very surprised at how passive the US was last night. Absolutely did not attempt to press the ball in any numbers. Maybe they were just overwhelmed by how quickly the ball moved. I didn't see much intent, though. Football in the US can't be world class until the pro league grows to be world class. That's an organic thing that may take another 20 or 50 years.

    That said, the US has definitely taken a step backward since Donovan's retirement. Similarly to the goalkeepers, for twenty years the club had either Claudio Reyna or Landon Donovan to lead it. I'm not sure who is the leader now.
     
  5. darkvoid

    darkvoid Tiocfaidh ár lá

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    Yeah wasn't it that they wanted rid of rafa so as it aid the sale of the club as Rafa was seen to have to much clout from the fan base and hodgson was seen as a manager who would just keep things ticking over till the club was sold which then just backfired dramatically.

    Just out of interest, did the two muppets actually offer klinsmann the job and he turned it down ?
     
  6. Kanonkop

    Kanonkop Well-Known Member

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    Isn't the problem also that the most gifted athletes in the US will choose other sports rather than football when push comes to shove and they need to focus on one sport only? Money being the main driver for those decisions.
     
  7. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    I think that's an easy excuse to point to, but I don't see much evidence of it. I know plenty of people who took the football route despite having other options. One of the players I highlighted in my previous post was Taylor Twellman who was a legit 3 sports star in high school and got drafted in baseball but elected to go to uni to play soccer instead. I think part of the issue is that what Americans tend to think of as "physically gifted" is a very narrow vision of athleticism that suits their sports that doesn't necessarily translate to soccer very well.
     
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  8. gr_sounder

    gr_sounder Always Watching

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    I think Limiescouse is partly right in his answers.

    There are plenty of players that take the football (soccer here) route... but Kanonkop is also right. We have a situation where most of our best physical specimens opt for other sports.

    Was talking about this with many of my friends this morning. The US is more passionate about football/soccer than it was 20-30 years ago... but the training and development really aren't there. I have coached many many many years... and I still cringe when I look at how kids 12 and under are coached. They are often coached to win games rather than to promote development. As a result, players aren't as well rounded. They are also usually coached to do the safe thing rather than try something with some flair... as a result they don't learn to attack with creativity.

    And in the end, the money is also something... as is ESPN and what it shows on TV all the time. If you want to be on ESPN... you play football (NFL type) or basketball first, then baseball next (though baseball's popularity has significantly declined)
     
  9. El Dorado

    El Dorado Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion the football athlete is different from other athletes in terms of his physical characteristics. For example, it's hard to imagine Lionel Messi being successful than any other sport. We have plenty of young football players in the United States, but they do not play against high enough level competition early enough in their lives to fully develop the same way that European or south American players do.

    I sometimes wonder how good Landon Donovan would have been if he had had to fight it out at the top club's Academy.
     
    SGM likes this.
  10. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    Aye, that is why I shake my head when my neanderthal American friends explain away their lack of elite status by the fact that LeBron and Kobe are playing basketball.

    I think one of the biggest things holding the US development back is the general US culture towards kids, play and free-time. Here kiids are almost exclusively exposed to sports in a structured organized environment and they very rarely take that home and carry on the game in their play time. I hadnt played on my first organized team until I was at an age when many of my American friends had already "quit" soccer. The concept of "quitting" soccer doesnt compute in the rest of the world for something we play morning, noon and night as play, and then occasionally in an organized context with shin pads and proper boots. I think this limits their development simply in terms of the number of touches American kids get, but also because the things kids try in the playground are different than they things they try in a proper game.
     
  11. gr_sounder

    gr_sounder Always Watching

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    That is true... the football/soccer athlete is different from the NFL/football athlete ... is different from the basketball athlete.
    However, there are a lot of 6'0 people playing NFL ball and basketball that are extremely fast and quick ... and who have great body control. If they played football/soccer rather than NFLball/basketball, their bodies would not be as bulky because they wouldn't do the steroids (errr, I mean the massive workouts) to bulk up.

    You're right that it would be hard for Messi to dominate in any other sport, because football/soccer is so forgiving of height. It focuses more on skills and speed than being tall, though lets be honest... if we could have a backline of 6'2 defenders at all positions we'd take them over 5'10 guys.
     
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  12. Lalo

    Lalo Member

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    Would you pick the 6'2 defender over Messi at CB ? :rolleyes:
     
    darkvoid likes this.
  13. gr_sounder

    gr_sounder Always Watching

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    Haha... I'd love to see Messi playing as a CB...
     
  14. El Dorado

    El Dorado Well-Known Member

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    Give James Rodriguez credit. Facing surgery after the tournament and involved in a transfer situation, he plays the consolation game of the Copa. A lot of other stars would have bagged it.
     
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  15. norwegian wood

    norwegian wood TIA Regular

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    Knew it would be worth staying up for this. Pretty frenetic first half. Great intensity, mad referee. Brilliant stuff so far.
     
  16. spizfromoz

    spizfromoz Well-Known Member

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    Messi doesn't get to take his spot kick as Chile win through on penalties.
     
  17. ubermick

    ubermick Willing to drive Moreno to the airport Admin

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    Wow - Messi just announced his retirement from international football. Pele must be loving it.
     
  18. SGM

    SGM TIA Legend

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    Says someone who hasn't followed his career. He has grown leaps and bounds over the last season. He is still young, But strong and composed when he is on his game. Is good on the ball as well. If he can keep growing and get more consistent he has the potential to be great. As said by his coach, he shows up when it matters, but needs to be more focused in the smaller games, something he himself has admitted and is working at. Reason I wouldn't mind Klopp looking at him is because CB hasn't exactly been our strong suit since Carras final season, and Klopps strongest attribute is bringing players to a very high consistent level. And he's on the final year of his contract so the price would be decent. But hey... I'm just reacting off a couple of games in an international tournament :rolleyes:

    Should have stepped sooner on Argentinas 3rd goal but what a pass by Messi. Other than that I thought he was the USs best player.

    Also, US doesn't have the talent to compete with Argentina. Sure Klinnsman got the squad wrong but it wouldn't have mattered. Glad to see more prospects coming through European academies, but hopefully this coming generation doesn't puss out and go back to the MLS like this last one.

    Those talking about a US player swinging the commercial market... Won't happen unless a US player becomes one of the best in the world. Americans will hope any American player does well, but won't buy jerseys or switch allegiances just to follow an American.
     
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  19. Maria

    Maria The Misfit one

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    I could not see this game due to huge time difference. All i am hearing from the pundits on twitter are:

    It was a bad game, the ref was rubbish, the players were even worse and now Messi is retiring. Nooo! Please can any of you in the Americas can give me a quick overview.

    Who was the better team overall and deserved to win? Why is Messi leaving international football. He is too young?

    Thanks
     
  20. Rattlesnake888

    Rattlesnake888 Well-Known Member

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    Messi missed
     
  21. SGM

    SGM TIA Legend

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    Hard to see that sticking mick. Hope it's not true. Want to see him go for another World Cup.
     
  22. Genius

    Genius The Somewhat Normal One

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    That was a surprise. Messi retires from international football
     
  23. Rattlesnake888

    Rattlesnake888 Well-Known Member

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    Higuain bottles it in another final, it's time to leave him out of the Argentinian squad.
     
  24. SGM

    SGM TIA Legend

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    T
    This is the best post/article/publication I have seen on US soccer. Thanks for this.
     
  25. darkvoid

    darkvoid Tiocfaidh ár lá

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    He plays in Germany doesn't he and klopp has shown no interest in him whatsoever and would know him well enough so while I get you'd like one of your own playing for us its still thanks but no thanks
     
  26. spizfromoz

    spizfromoz Well-Known Member

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    Messi miss causes Mexit
     
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  27. Zoran

    Zoran Fighting like beavers.

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    What?!

    Messi (29), Higuain (28), Aguero (28), Mascherano (32), Biglia (30), Lavezzi (31) and Di Maria (28) have all retired.


    Pathetic.
     
  28. Rattlesnake888

    Rattlesnake888 Well-Known Member

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    Messi will play in the next World Cup if Argentina qualify. That is 100% guaranteed
     
  29. mattyhurst

    mattyhurst TIA Regular

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    Don't tip them in 2 years time....

    I wouldn't anyhow mind it's in Russia.
     
  30. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    That game is why I would never trust Higauin, no matter how good a goal scoring run he's on. That's 3 sitters missed in 3 games that have each cost Argentina the title.

    @Maria - the game was played at an incredible pace with neither team shirking any challenge. Add in the attitude of the players who reacted to everything and they made it very difficult for the ref. For all the criticisms of the way he handled it I dont get the controversy of the first red card, other than from people who think you have to give players licence to stay on the pitch because it's a final. Chile's main defensive tactic was to take Messi down before he could build up a head of steam, and Diaz knew that while that exposed he had no chance of not getting beaten so he cynically and purposefully blocked him. The Rojo one was very harsh though. I thought Messi actually played very well given that Chile had 3 or 4 giys on him throughout. He still found time and space to get on the ball a lot of create openings. If Higuain wasnt such a big moment bottler Messi's international career would look very different.
     
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