Fifa Ban Poppy

Discussion in 'World Football' started by treboeth, Nov 1, 2016.

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  1. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    1) They had to choose a date for remembrance and the day that hostilities ended in the First World War is as good as any. The poppy itself represents the loss of all life in all conflicts.

    2) So McClean is happy to remember lives lost in service of the Empire and Commonwealth but not lives lost by those who have died for other causes? Seems a bit strange.

    3) Errr no. You wouldnt' happen to be straw-manning again would you? I'm saying that the victims of Bloody Sunday ought to be remembered like all victims of conflict. I'm certainly not saying that anyone should celebrate the men who, in your words, "murdered them and who put forward false accounts to justify their murders". How did you infer that?

    The poppy is not a political symbol. It is non-partisan.
     
  2. Wyld@Heart

    Wyld@Heart Well-Known Member

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    If I may? There are some parallels to be drawn here between the Poppy and a holiday here in South Africa called Reconciliation Day. I'm not going to go through the whole history but the general gist is this:

    On December 16 in the 1800's, 1872 if I remember right, a battle was fought when a Boer laager was attacked by a Zulu army resulting in massive casualties for the Zulu and victory for the Boer settlers. It is said the river ran red with the blood of Zulu impi thus becoming known as the Battle of Blood River. The Boers took this as confirmation from God that the land was destined for them and thereafter the day was known as The Day of the Vow (or Covenant) and it became a holiday into the creation of The South African Republic and into the apartheid era. Obviously this excluded the ethnic population from the reason behind celebrating and many a protest was held on the day as well as acts of sabotage and terrorism. Umkhonto we Sizwe, the militant arm of the ANC announced their creation with such acts on this day in the 60's.

    Of course, along comes 1994 and apartheid is abolished and the country is 'free' but still divided along racial lines. So what does one do? Have a holiday that celebrates colonialism and a vow made to whites only? Or abolish it and show whites who's boss? Doing so would only heighten tension and exacerbate the divide so some bright spark decided to keep the holiday and call it instead 'The Day of Reconciliation'. Everyone's happy, politicians score points, racial groups feel included and of course we all get to skip work.

    Its how you market it see. Poppy day can be inclusive of all who lost their lives in conflict instead of creating bitterness for those who lost their lives at the hands of one side or the other. Yes we remember, yes we mourn but to let it fester and create a divide after generations is slightly counter productive.

    My two cents of course. As you were :-)
     
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  3. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    3)Straw man definition:
    A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.
    Some of the soldiers who killed the civilians died in the troubles, therefore they are celebrated if the poppy, as you said, represents losses on both sides. So no, not straw man arguments you put forward the argument wittingly or not, also it is not in my words, it is in the words of the Saville inquiry, which stated that the deaths were "unjustified" and "unjustifiable" David Cameron even apologized, so no not "my words"
    2) McClean is only saying he should not be forced to celebrate men who killed his own people and that is why he will not wear the poppy. To everyone who suffered through the troubles and more the poppy is a political symbol.
    3) Just because a large group of people accept it as a representation of the remembrance of the loss of life in all conflicts does not mean that they should expect everyone to accept such when that is not how it started out people's views are subjective.
     
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  4. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    Well, given that I never advanced the proposition that the poppy was to celebrate murderers who put forward false accounts in justification you have sought to refute a proposition that I never made. That was you being, once again, deliberately provocative.

    Remembrance doesn't discriminate. It's about loss of all life...it is a human tragedy that any life is lost as a result of human conflict. The poppy commemorates the dead on all sides and that will, necessarily mean, that it remembers the deaths of those who were themselves responsible for the loss of life. Do you think McClean is drawing that distinction? Even if he only wants to celebrate the lives lost by his own people do you think he doesn't include his own people who have also taken life? This is precisely why the poppy is apolitical - it is not a symbol of remembrance for certain lives lost but for all lives lost. It doesn't distinguish between those who died without taking another person's life and those who died who did.
     
  5. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    Before I go any further, I am not saying that I personally disagree with the poppy, if I was playing in england I would wear the poppy, no problem.
    I am not being provocative, you are finding me disagreeing with you provocative, you said the poppy was to celebrate the lives lost in these conflicts, I am telling you that some of the soldiers involved in the 1972 bloody Sunday also died in the troubles, by that logic they are celebrated in the form of the poppy, I admit you might not have intentionally made the argument but you directly or indirectly made the argument.
    This argument once again says, intentionally or no, that the men involved in 1972 are celebrated by the poppy.
    Quite the opposite, and this is the crux of my point, it doesn't matter if the poppy was meant as an apolitical thing, it could have had the best intentions in the world, and I do not doubt that it does, but James McClean see's it as political, and he will not be the only one across the world who views it as such, therefore FIFA can not allow it, I understand the hypocrisy from them also but that is a different debate. The poppy is a lovely idea, and the world does need to understand that loss of life in conflict is tragic and unnecessary, but just because you don't see something as political does not mean the world doesn't.
     
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  6. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    When have I used the word "celebrate"? You've used that word but I never have. Perhaps, in addition to admitting that I never made the argument you're suggesting I did, you can also admit that I never (either expressly or by implication) said that the poppy is to celebrate murders, as if I am somehow condoning or rejoicing in the killing of others. I never said that but you deliberately sought to suggest that I did.
     
  7. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    Celebrate might be the wrong word, remember is the best word but I thought that it might get over used in a conversation about remembrance day. Stay clam and don't get offended, I said it might have been an unwittingly made remark, I did not say you openly support murder, your getting too angry now and not seeing that the only point I have made here is that the poppy is and can be viewed as political, I have not attacked you, or the poppy or the English.
    This is the quote where you inquired as to why the bloody Sunday victims are excluded by James McClean and others of a same mind as him.
    My quote in return, could have been worded better, but the point is valid, those civilians and their families would not want to be remembered with their killers.
    Your accusation of straw-manning, and the inquiry as to how I inferred the the above statement.
    My explanation, and statement that you might have unintentionally hinted at.
    The reason that the 1972 bloody Sunday became a factor in this debate is because that is why James McClean views the poppy as political, you asserted that the deaths of 1972 should be remembered in the poppy too, fair enough nice thought, I am telling you why a lot of the people involved will not want this to be the case. If the men involved in bloody Sunday died in the troubles and are remembered with the poppy, then the families of the innocent will not want their relatives names in the same list. By asking could they not be remembered in the poppy you unintentionally and I will admit innocently, asked could they be remembered in the same list. No they can't, neither can the politics be taken out of the poppy in the north, many Catholics will not ever agree with it, but I am not sure of the protestant feelings, I assume they are OK with it.
    You asserted I used a straw-man argument, I did not, at that point I did not realize I had not made my point as eloquently as possible.
     
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  8. bridgeman

    bridgeman Banned Users

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    I make that 2-0 to Mr H
     
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  9. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    Not the first time that you have said something extremely provocative and then, through a painfully drawn out process of back-tracking, insisted that you never intended to be as provocative as you plainly were. You know precisely why you chose the word "celebrate" rather than "remember" in order to misrepresent my views and precisely why you tried to apply it to the circumstances you did.

    You're not a moron; your protestations of innocence are disingenuous.
     
  10. Wyld@Heart

    Wyld@Heart Well-Known Member

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    Are you of the Graham Poll school of refereeing? ;-)
     
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  11. bridgeman

    bridgeman Banned Users

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    Call it as I see it.
    Taking the the arguments solely on the points and counter points Mr H wins again hands down.
     
  12. Scott Jones

    Scott Jones Well-Known Member

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    Getting a bit fcuking prickly on here now,I think England should continue to stick two fingers up and wear the poppy with pride.:-)
     
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  13. bridgeman

    bridgeman Banned Users

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    Oh totally agree that they should
     
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  14. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    I am not backtracking, don't mistake admitting I phrased things wrong for backtracking, you are wrong, bluntly and simply, and your attempts to then turn the debate to defending yourself on accusations, I said you may have made unwittingly, is a way for you to prolong the debate, I am not protesting innocence, but if you see admitting a mistake as protestations of innocence, and that that is a bad thing, then there is an insight to your mindset. I have merely in this thread put forward the view that the poppy can be seen as political, that is why it was banned, I used James McClean as an example because he is a high profile person refusing to wear it, I admitted celebrated was the wrong word used as per your request and now I am "disingenuous" to do so. Your insinuation the you know exactly why I did or said something is childish finger pointing and I am not willing to partake in that. It is either right or wrong for me to retract the word celebrate, and I did not need to misrepresent your argument to prove a symbol can be seen as political.
     
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  15. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    I'm not saying they shouldn't, I am merely pointing out that it can be seen as political, I have no issue with the poppy, and as I have stated would wear it, no problem. :well done:
     
  16. Scott Jones

    Scott Jones Well-Known Member

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    We don't wear it as a political symbol so for me that's the point,just my opinion.
     
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  17. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    I'm not saying the poppy was ever intended as one but from different points of view will be seen as one, your wearing it in an international arena, its a statement to the world not just your own country.
     
  18. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    You knew exactly what you were doing when you said, "Are you claiming that the victims of the bloody Sunday massacre of 1972 should be remembered and celebrated alongside the men who murdered them and who put forward false accounts to justify their murders?".

    Your use of the word "celebrate" that I had never used and your insinuation that I was suggesting that the poppy celebrated "the men who murdered them [the victims of Bloody Sunday] and who put forward false accounts to justify their murders" was deliberately provocative and, because it was not something I had ever suggested, straw-manning.

    Anyone who understands English at even a basic level knows the difference in meaning between "celebrate" and "remember". Anyone with any intelligence can see why you would use that word and associate it to "men who murdered them and put forward false accounts to justify their murders".

    This is how the British Legion describe the poppy:

    http://www.britishlegion.org.uk/remembrance/how-we-remember/the-story-of-the-poppy/

    The poppy is

    • A symbol of Remembrance and hope
    • Worn by millions of people
    • Red because of the natural colour of field poppies
    The poppy is NOT

    • A symbol of death or a sign of support for war
    • A reflection of politics or religion
    • Red to reflect the colour of blood
     
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  19. Scott Jones

    Scott Jones Well-Known Member

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    Im not accusing you of anything,the point is the wearing of the poppy has been politicised not by those who wear it,it's disingenuous to suggest that wearing it is political so for me the context of it has been lost,shame really.
     
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  20. treboeth

    treboeth Well-Known Member

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    Makes me so proud of the sacrifices previous generations have made for our freedom
    And then to see fifa punishing people that Honour them fills me with disgust for the corrupt bastardswho cannot run their own business without absolute corruption
     
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  21. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    So your interpretation here is essentially "this is what they said and everyone has to view it this way"? I have put forward reasons why it is viewed different by a group of people, telling me intentions and definitions does not change the way they view it or have any effect on my argument, the original idea of the poppy is as I have said a good idea, a lovely intention and I have no objection to it personally, so straw-manning?
    Are you calling me unintelligent? You can both celebrate and remember events, I have retracted the word and you are still bringing it up, if it had been intentional to misrepresent your argument, why would I retract it? That makes no sense. You seem to be taking all of this as a personal attack and none of it was offered as such.
    Answer me this, if the poppy is seen as apolitical by a lot of people, but one group have seen a negative politic in it on valid grounds, can you legitimately wear it and say there is no politics in it?
     
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  22. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    True the message is not in any way objectionable, but nothing with the North is that simple, even if both sides liked it, the first one to state they like it would send the other against it!
     
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  23. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    If you think I am then maybe you are?
     
  24. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    Zinger, cut me to the quick. The wit is unparalleled.
     
  25. i_still_miss_fowler

    i_still_miss_fowler Well-Known Member Moderator

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    I would urge peace and respect (the irony) otherwise mods will start to interfere.

    I dont want to warn anyone, but you guys are coming close.
     
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  26. i_still_miss_fowler

    i_still_miss_fowler Well-Known Member Moderator

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    What I would urge you guys to consider is the difference between perception, and objective. This is the true debate.

    One example of this is the White Poppy.

    My personal view is I wear the poppy as a mark of respect, to acknowldge the sacrifice others made for the greater good during the first and second world wars. Although I grew up associating it with Anzac day, many people in the UK too primarily associate it with the two world wars.

    I accept though that others may have other perspectives
     
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  27. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    As a mark of respect...but are you also making a political statement as well? That's the issue - is the poppy political and, if it isn't (or at least intended to be), can it become political simply because some politicise it? Does that mean anything is political if it can arbitrarily be politicised?

    What makes something political? The intention or the perception by 3rd parties?
     
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  28. DrSnuggles

    DrSnuggles Member

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    isnt it ok to wear it and also not wear it if you do not want to?
     
  29. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    Of course. Personal choice.
     
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  30. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    What gives you the right to decide 1916 is political but James McClean can not see the poppy that way?
     
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