Let's talk tactics

Discussion in 'The Albert - LFC Talk' started by TheSweetSilverSong, Oct 1, 2013.

  1. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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    Under Klopp, we have been playing some of the best football I've ever seen. Fluidity, flair, intelligent movement and maniac pressing are a common sight makes us deliver probably one of the finest attacking displays in the world.

    I believe this great work of Klopp and co deserve some tactical attention from respected analysts in order to explain our philosophy and appreciate the style we are playing. Tactical analysis of players like Wijnaldum for instance is needed for fans to really appreciate the importance linking role.

    What I aim is that people here with sound tactical knowledge could create some analysis (along the lines of the ones at spielverlagerung) after our games, since I am very disappointed with the lack of analysis of our team either here or at other sites.

    EDIT:

    What I mean by analysis is that how we line up, how our 4-3-3 looks in defence and in offence, how our pressing works, the roles of the players etc...
     
  2. norwegian wood

    norwegian wood TIA Regular

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    Takes a fair bit of time to do that properly - and of course extensive theoretical knowledge, as well as a pretty good insight to Klopp's principles - so maybe it's not something people are too keen on diving into. At least not regularly.

    I think there has been a couple of analytical pieces on the main site, but it's perhaps more of an occasional thing rather than something the writer does after every game.
     
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  3. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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    Fair enough, maybe games like today and the one against City deserve the attention though.
     
  4. TheSweetSilverSong

    TheSweetSilverSong Well-Known Member

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  5. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Adaptation of each game is what he called it. Nothing to do with "philosophy" like his predecessor, he believes in adapting his style to a specific situation. He hardly deviates from the formation he started in a match, that is as far as you can analyse his way of setting up players. All the hipster mumbo-jumbo doesn't apply that much with him.

    So nothing much to analyse and dissect, just enjoy the ride is what I would do.
     
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  6. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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    Analyzing our way allows us to enjoy and appreciate the massive progress we have seen even more.
     
  7. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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  8. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Too much work..... Analysing numbers in my job is enough to occupy my brain. Won't be fun if I do it with football... Unless I am paid to do so. lol
     
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  9. Hope in your heart

    Hope in your heart Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts... Admin

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    The threads have been merged now. Cheers!
     
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  10. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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    Cheers mate!
     
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  11. TheSweetSilverSong

    TheSweetSilverSong Well-Known Member

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    Tactically, I posted in the pre-match that 4-4d-2 would be the way to go vs Utd at Old Trafford, with natural width absent (along with Mane), and with a major target to win the midfield.

    So I was glad to see it opted by Klopp as well, and to good effect. I still think it would be better with Sturridge and Firmino up top, and to even continue with Coutinho subbed in instead of going back to 4-3-3.

    Origi (who I'm a fan of), wasn't in his top form, and Sturridge, despite his bad game vs Soton, would have been a better option alongside Firmino in my opinion. Lallana did a great job at the tip, and I think that with Coutinho subbed in, had Coutinho taken over the tip of the diamond, he'd have done a great job too (Carrick was subbed out by that point anyway), and Lallana would have done as good a job in CM too, in my opinion.

    In the end, it could have made the difference, but it's too easy to say in retrospect and we'll never really know.

    It will be interesting to see how we'll line up and what formation we'll play in the two (or 3) games that Mane will be still absent (Swansea, Chelsea - and possibly Hull).

    Generally speaking, and this last game vs Utd is another one that highlights it our main tactical thing to improve is to find the way to hold on to a lead. The way we did it vs City was impressive, but it was the odd exception and it was at home too. Looking forward to getting to that level in our game - I'm sure it's going to get there with Klopp.
     
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  12. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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    I believe without the Mane shaped void, as the main site news puts it, the diamond/4-3-1-2 is the way to go. We have 3 excellent strikers and we need to utilize them. Coutinho in the hole and Lallana in his usual advanced midfielder role will punish teams day in and day out. If we need to hold on to a lead, we could opt for a 4-5-1 similar to the one against City or Barca in the pre-season. It will consolidate the midfield and allow us to break away in numbers.

    However, we still need a Mane-esque player to compete with and backup our only winger.
     
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  13. Spitfire

    Spitfire Resident Realist

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    Apart from the obvious reasons the interesting one for me there is Chelsea - tactically how will we play assuming we expect to see a 3-4-3 from them.

    In simplified terms do you look to play 3 up top and go at them man for man, or 2 up top focus on winning the midfield and then trying to play in the half spaces between the back three.

    Link below is to a good article about the Chelsea formation with some analysis - from a footballing sense you have to hand it to Conte he has developed a system with these players that makes them very effective not only with and without the ball but also in transition. This game for me will be the real litmus test of where we are in our development - a team with both quality and discipline - at the top of their game (neither of those things could yet be said for the two Manchester sides.)

    http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/12/25/antonio-contes-3-4-3/
     
  14. Artrain

    Artrain Well-Known Member

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    Wow, good guess for calling it mate. We did play surprisingly well with this formation considering this was our first time this season to adopt it (correct me if I'm wrong?). I especially think we showed great strength in midfield. Can and Wij did an excellent job to hold the fort there. But they did require decent amount of help from Lallana and Firmino, and that was where I thought the problem lay with the formation.

    We created plenty of chances going by the numbers, but two of our best chances (Firmino and Wij in second half) were both from an angle and a distance that favoured their keeper IMO. Plus when you take into account that the said keeper is De Gea, then those chances become not enough. Compared to us, I thought United had the better quality chances. Couple for Mkhitaryan, and the delicious free kick for Zlatan. Good for us they didn't have the quality to put those away (and Migs was absolutely on top on his form).

    Us not being so good going forward might also be because Origi was not having the best of days, and neither Lallana nor Firmino
    were creating much. Plus that United defence is nothing to sneeze about. But with our best players, I think we'd have killed them. You could see just how much difference Coutinho made when he came on. If he had been there for the full 90, I think we might have bagged it.
    With Couts in now, I personally think we should go back to 4-3-3 with Firmino in the middle. We really need those three up front to link up and create good chances.
     
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  15. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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    We played it this season against Spurs in the cup (2-1), and was a regular last season too.
     
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  16. Artrain

    Artrain Well-Known Member

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    Ah, thanks for that. Don't remember too much of last season, its all a haze, but I'm sure our dominant formation back then was 4-2-3-1 with Firmino / Origi on top as we did have Sturridge injured for most part of the season. Damn our play style from back then has changed too much for me to even remember who played where.
     
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  17. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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    Cheers mate.
    Klopp was trying to put all his best players in a single effective formation. He tried 4321,4231,4411,442 flat, 442 diamond among others. I am particularly glad he didn't decide on a 4231 at the end, and our current 433 is a great flexible system to rely on.
     
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  18. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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    Took me a couple of days to get over that horrible result against Swans, we looked like an underdog team that was allowed the ball and being punished with 3 counterattacks. I think several points have become absolutely clear:

    1. Lovren cannot be the main CB. He needs to be the covering defender behind someone like Matip, and the sooner we get an upgrade on him, the better.
    2. We need a quick forward in a front 3, Mane does great because he is a natural winger and uses his pace to get behind defences.
    3. Lallana belongs in the midfield, he is not a winger. He wants to press and pass, not run onto through balls which he is supposed to be the one providing them in the first place.
    4. Can is clueless, slow and holds back the team's attacks. We can't rely on him while we are on the front foot.

    I don't think the 4-3-3 is the way to go for us without Mane (and with Can). We need to play the diamond 4-4-2 similar to the one we played at Plymouth and Spurs. This would easily negate all the cons of playing Lallana out of position, Can being too slow and lack of pace without Mane, while using Studgy and Bobby in their most lethal central area:

    --------------Mignolet
    Clyne - Matip - Lovren - Milner
    --------------Hendo
    -------Lallana - Wijnaldum
    --------------Coutinho
    -------Firmino - Sturridge

    While comparing with our 2013/2014 team (attacking wise), Firmino would be our direct Suarez replacment, as he offers similar off the ball movement, skill, less finishing ability but a much higher workrate. Sturridge back to his poaching role, and Coutinho in a free roaming trequartista role. Even with Mane back in the side, he could slot at the tip of the diamond (like Sterling back then) while Coutinho being in place of Lallana/Gini. I think this system will suit us much better at the moment. On top of that, our team depth would be much more better.
     
  19. Kanonkop

    Kanonkop Well-Known Member

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    Interesting stats that highlight that our current problems are at both ends of the pitch and everything in between rather than just missing one player (Mane). We cannot convert clear cut chances yet we make it very easy for the opponents to do so:

    Andrew Beasley ‏@BassTunedToRed 6m6 minutes ago

    LFC haven't won any of their last 5 games vs PL teams.
    Total shots in the box: 41-26
    Looks alright.
    Total clear-cut chances: 7-11
    To make matters worse, LFC have scored 2/7 CCCs in this spell whilst the opposition have scored 7/11.
     
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  20. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Eru

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    Can I ask why we are utter dog turd at any sort of set piece? Corner, free kick, hell crossing.. We are utter shite at it bar the godly anomonaly goal we seem to throw in every few months.

    It's ironic, I see us get a corner I sigh because I know it won't beat the first man, then I see them get a corner I clench my arse cheeks because I know shit is about to get arsehair crazy.

    I wonder if it is because we are so shit at defending them we easily score when practicing.. In reality v's a defence who can head without reverting to headless chickeness we don't have a clue.
     
  21. Flobs

    Flobs FADA

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    I clench my arse cheeks when we win a corner as it's a great opportunity for our opponents to counter us and score.

    As for your question I haven't a clue but it's been like that for a long long time.
     
  22. ptt

    ptt Mane I'm excited for this season

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    Because we're Liverpool, we beat the first man and score from corners on a seasonal basis. Was the same 10 years ago, never ever changes. Unless we're playing a world 11 or Dortmund in a semi-final.
     
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  23. Eggmundo

    Eggmundo If you fail to plan, You plan to fail !

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    It's clear we need a CB,CM,WINGER & a replacement for Sturridge.

    I's like nothing more than for Studge to turn his season around, but it was evident last night that he's lost a good two maybe three yards of pace. The rustiness in front of goal will come with game time. We all know that he's naturally gifted in that department and it'll be a matter of time until he's back to his best, whether that's in a Liverpool shirt though... i dont know.

    IMHO here's our best starting 11 right now.

    ..................Karius ( turned his blip around)
    Clyne - Matip - Lovren - Milner
    .................... Hendo
    ............Lallana - Wijnaldum
    .................Coutinho
    ..............Firmino - Origi

    What i'd love to see :p

    ...................Karius ( turned his blip around)

    Clyne - Matip - Godin - R.Rodriguez

    Mane....Wijnaldum...Hendo.....Coutinho

    ..................Lallana

    ..................Firmino
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
  24. RedSeven

    RedSeven On the one road Valued Member

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    If clear cut chances are falling to guys who don't have that natural killer instinct in front of goal then they will more likely miss a larger percentage of those chances than players such as Defoe,Llorente and Ibrahimovic.These 3 players have scored 5 goals against us over the last 3 EPL games and while all 3 will occupy other areas of the pitch on occassion,they are all essentially strikers.At the end of each season these are the guys who you expect to be their teams top scorer because they are there to get the goals,anything else is a bonus.In Sturridge we have a top striker who we don't use as a striker because we want all of our front players to be interchangeable rather than have a single player up front with other supporting players feeding him.Most of the season this has worked well for us but there have been a few games where it hasn't worked.Strikers need to get into a rhythm in order to score goals,pulling Sturridge here,there and everywhere does not allow him the time to get into that rhythm.
     
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  25. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Eru

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    Shane Long - "The whole team is trying to forever them out wide, not letting them make passes through middle to get 1-on-1 with keeper"

    So don't think it's not down to being found out.. It is, we are utterly utterly predictable, when Mane was out wide you gave him space out there he punished you, now we don't have it so when we get out wide we aimlessly cross because we don't have the pace to beat a man.

    How many times do you see us get to the byline but by the time we do and pullback it's into a crowded box? A lot.

    Klopp keeps saying we know what to do.. Well maybe just maybe we don't, it's clear there is a blueprint to beating us, unless he changes something we will continue this rut. This is where it's worrying, Klopp persists with Lallana/Firmino out wide right, it's not worked once. I'd rather not play someone than play them so out of position they become useless.
     
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  26. cardiffpete

    cardiffpete TIA Reserve Team

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    We seem to be very happy atm to attain a 73% possession target and about a 1000 passes per game, while producing about 12 shots at goal, with maybe 4 on target. Always the unlucky angle too.

    We were doing everything right, It's not easy to break teams down, the luck didn't go our way, we did create some chances to score our goals but it just didn't happen. That one maybe handball was our undoing. Much of that is just bollox.

    I would rather Klopp called a spade-a-spade and maybe actively rotated stuff a bit more. That would be a bit hit-and-miss inevitably, but also a chance to shake things up. BR for example just wound up stuck in a horrible rut of never ever dropping under-performing players and always hoping that it would become better by sticking to his guns. Klopp is getting very close to entering the same rut-based stuff at LFC atm. Small tweaks only, instead of the more dictated and more radical and sweeping measures. BR never got out of that rut - but last night he took Celtic to almost their best-ever run in the club's history.

    It might just be the almost insane pressure to try to make LFC great again, that just grabs any manager to even attempt to do so. I did not have Klopp ever down as a compulsively stubborn coach (and he surely isn't either), but some of his LFC line-up picks are very close to entering BR territory here atm (like Emre Can etc). That could just be the nature of the job though.

    That almost insane pressure to succeed, which then does not allow any abnormal experimentation which most coaches are free to try in far less pressured environments. I would hate to see Klopp getting straight-jacketed in his line-up picks, but he is gravitating towards frustration here of late.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2017
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  27. Billy Biskix

    Billy Biskix TIA Youth Team Valued Member

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    Teams have been playing that way against us all season though. We've stopped being effective in the face of it because without Mane we have no threat down the right hand side. Teams can leave that area alone knowing that no one's got the pace to get in behind. When the holy trinity of Mane/Coutinho/Firmino play together teams can't just sit in the central areas. Too much danger right across the front line. They have to spread out and we can then exploit the spaces that appear in the centre, especially as those three are so comfortable drifting. Real feature of our early season play was how many chances and goals we created by going through the middle of teams. Not happening now. Will when they are reunited again.
     
  28. cardiffpete

    cardiffpete TIA Reserve Team

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    That's an extremely optimistic take, which I for one would sign-up for in a heart-beat.

    Equally, we might be so disillusioned (and beaten down, by multiple hits against) as a collective unit at the point that all 3 link-up again, that it would not arrest the slide backwards. It's very hard to fight against the tide. Habits become ingrained etc.

    LFC are turning into an 70% possession side atm that pride that aspect of play and assume that it will auto create enough chances to win games and if it doesn't then it was maybe bad luck. The first murmurings of the Ref etc are starting to appear. Klopp's presser after Soton was all about denial and an "obvious" handball. That was after 180 minutes of being comprehensively outplayed and outfought btw. No shame in that at all, but then just admit it and move on.

    Chelsea at home will be massive here. Combating a highly functioning 3-4-2-1 is very, very hard to do (coincidentally BR's system for a while 2 years ago). Most managers just give up here and force match-up with their own 3-at-the-back ...as how on earth to face it otherwise? There are no weaknesses at all, to exploit. BR had a good thing going for us for a while anyway, until he tweaked it to death. It's just so tough to face that formation in regular play. That'll be a real acid-test for us. Wolves in the FA Cup should be easier and the usual 2nd string and freer approach template.
     
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  29. Billy Biskix

    Billy Biskix TIA Youth Team Valued Member

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    @cardiffpete It's not extremely optimistic to say we'll be a better team with Mane, Coutinho and Firmino leading the line. It's a statement of fact on what we've seen so far. Just a massive drop in fluidity and all round threat when you put Sturridge in there, whose movement is now non-existent, or Origi who isn't really cutting it either this season. I can't believe that what we were seeing earlier in the season was some glorious abberation and what we're seeing now is the new norm. I also don't think teams have changed their approach against us. It's been the same all season. It's just right now we're not as effective against it.

    We've dominated possession all season but we're not dominating games any more. When the attack isn't functioning we need much more from our midfield rather than this tedious and endless recycling. Take a player on, make a run into the box, hit a longer pass, fuck it even try the occasional shot. Almost worked for Can last night. Our midfield is really letting us down here.
     
  30. westcoastbias79

    westcoastbias79 Active Member

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    stray thoughts towards some kind of a point:

    -one of my favorite games on YouTube is Klopp's BVB v Bayern in the 2012 Cup final. Other than the sheer joy of watching peak BVB, what kills me is the fact that it's early May, probably 50+ games into the year, and Dortmund are swarm-pressing/passing/moving like it's August. I'm certain the KBK guys figured their LFC squad would be able to do that same stuff in the Premier League, with no drop off...even though there's no winter break and you end up playing a million games in Dec/Jan.

    -@Dortmund Fan telling us a few months ago that BVB didn't really rotate players, basically the same 11-13 guys on the pitch all year, unless injuries forced Klopp's hand

    -Nerding out and audio-reading Cruyff's book (that man loved Ajax more than I'll ever love anything in my life), and Cruyff explaining that to make his/Michels' 4-3-3 work, you can't rotate heavily, b/c then you lose the understanding/timing/rhythm between players and the system falls apart. New guys might add energy but they break up everything else.

    -Klopp saying in a presser back in the early part of the season, when we first started worrying about rotation and player burnout, that LFC doesn't have the reserves of a City or United. At the time, we figured that meant buying guys in January. Not so much.

    These are like, real strategic problems, not game-to-game stuff: we're committed to this high-intensity gegenpressing system. We don't rotate guys in and out to keep everyone fresh, either b/c we can't (lack of depth) or won't (philosophically opposed to it). The PL schedule grinds down a high-intensity attacking/pressing squad. And either b/c of our style or the schedule or both, injuries are probably unavoidable.

    Something's gotta give. Our German Boot Room has to find a way to adapt to this if we're gonna win long term.
     

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