Let's talk tactics

Discussion in 'The Albert - LFC Talk' started by TheSweetSilverSong, Oct 1, 2013.

  1. TheSweetSilverSong

    TheSweetSilverSong Well-Known Member

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    Well we're not dominating games for sure lately, and that was quite a bit before we started yielding the 3 points. So the question is what has changed?
    I'll try to go through the factors one by one.

    - I think it all started with injuries, especially Coutinho's and Henderson's, two crucial ones that coincided for a long period. During which we also saw Sturridge injured for a while, Milner, Matip, and Lallana as well.
    That's 6 players, 5 of which are starting (of which 3 I personally consider the spine: Coutinho, Henderson, Matip).

    - Timing of return wasn't ideal, as with Mane's absence we can't go back to our proper starting line-up and see both our attack and midfield affected by the absence of a single player - Lallana is moved up front (where he is not so effective - and btw, we knew that already), and he is missing from the midfield where he performed so well this season (and where we see Emre in his place - who is still growing in the position).
    Shows how crucial Mane is in our attack, and shows the lack of options if a key player is injured.

    - Firmino hasn't been in form without Coutinho, and it's evident how he found his game after a few games with Coutinho back in the team. This is a microcosmos of how things can be unsettled by minor tweaks in a perfectly functioning machine - because it can be observed here and there in the starting XI (Lallana not functioning in attack and denied from midfield, Henderson missing from midfield, Matip from defence etc.).

    - Sturridge simply need to be given a role and trust if he'd be to start scoring again for us regularly. I don't think it's easy for him to find that when you play 20 minutes or when you are given a start every odd game. With Mane's absence, the logical thing to do would be to keep Lallana where we know he can perform at his best, and to not move him where we know he can't perform, and to give Sturridge his time and the trust that he needs for his confidence as a striker to be regained. I mean we knew Mane would be missing months ago, so it's not like injuries where you need to react on the spot. You can have a plan in such cases. So if the plan was to move Lallana where we already know he can't work, and not trust a real forward (for all the reasons that we know), I don't see how that was a good plan and how we expected it to succeed. Recipe for failure and I really didn't expect it to be honest.

    - Origi was in great form for a few games (score 5 goals in a few games there), and there seemed to be hope that he grew into his striker role, but unfortunately he's still young and as it's normal for players of his age, he had a spell of what we're about to see in a more consistent basis in a few year's time, but for now, it's only logical to see it go up and down at this age. Consistency is the thing that young players build to become experienced and prolific strikers, and it's only built up with time. He'll have it of course, and I can't wait to see him get there, but for now, it's nothing to be relied on - it can be perfect at times, but at least as many times it can be frustrating to rely on him and we shouldn't either. We should have a bit more luxury, and I'm hoping that Klopp is very much aware of that and that we'll have that in the summer (personally, hoping it won't be at the expense of losing Sturridge, but I know most posters don't agree with me here).

    - When Mane gets back and we have the starting line-up, if we keep not getting results I can start thinking about whether we have greater issues, but for now it's very clear that we have a very limited hand there, and what we're seeing is the results of a badly jammed hand. Even with only one player missing right now (as hopefully Mane will be fully back by the time we play Chelsea), it disturbs two areas of the game so much that it results in a completely different balance in the team, which is not really functioning. So I'm hoping that we'll find a way to beat that so important game vs Chelsea before Mane returns somehow, and set ourselves for a comeback.

    - I'm much more optimistic for Klopp's second full season, as his history of transfers at Dortmund shows that he'll strengthen and it seems he'll have all the backing he'll need from the owners. If there's good options and we get them, we shouldn't have the same problem - at least not at the same level - next season, and we'll have most our players getting closer to peak as well. But even for this season, there's a good chance to recover from the current problem, and achieve a 4th+ position and get back in the CL and maybe just maybe to do it in style and be in the top spots which are all fair game right now.

    For me the most important thing for the team's future is to keep our star players (hold on to everyone really, especially Coutinho, and his recent renewal was a must), then strengthen from there.

    And let's see what we can do this season. Let's start winning again, and most importantly, let's start dominating games again the way we had at the first couple of months. Then the points will come.
     
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  2. Steve_LFC

    Steve_LFC Well-Known Member

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    The premier league is a different animal compared to the bundesliga... We have a few big clubs compared to basically one in Germany. Small clubs park buses and do anything strategically to steal a point. And the point you made of no winter break... Just trying to follow the Dortmund model will not guarantee success in this league. And I hope Klopp makes the necessary adjustments to his tactics and style with that in mind.

    Probably most important than any tactic used is Talent. We need IMO more talent throughout the squad and better players in starting 11 especially if we wont be rotating much. So that even if there are some injuries , the rest left playing will look at each other with confidence to know they can get the job done.
     
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  3. cardiffpete

    cardiffpete TIA Reserve Team

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    On the tactical front, I was assuming Klopp might counterbalance Mane out for AFCON by reverting to the Diamond instead.

    Which he did do as well aka first 60 minutes against ManU at Old Trafford and in trotting out the Diamond then, before then abandoning it to go back to 4-3-3 again. It did nullify any playmaking from Carrick on the day, with Lallana on him all the time, but it also wore us out physically too as they just kept switching play to both flanks, which left us with massive meters made in then sprinting out laterally to both wings. It also saw a raw young kid in TAA being left very exposed on the night at RB. Their equalizer also came from some very aggressive targeting of TAA (all-game too), which was normal stuff. The Diamond is not the easiest way to bed a young kid into the team. Our switching in defense from side to side multiple times also saw ManU get some very easy central thrusts going too with the central holes being left to be exploited, which they should have converted 1st half aka Mikhi and Pogba then

    Then on Wednesday, Klopp also turned to the Diamond all 1st half versus Soton, before then abandoning it at half-time. The same Achilles heel of a very raw young kid (in TAA) being left out of position and too high-and-wide and left unprotected (as the Diamond midfield is just so narrow) ...which Soton exploited by switching the very pacy Redmond over to the left wing. 2 golden opportunities spurned by first Tadic and then Davis later-on, as Soton just sat-back and countered with pace on the night.

    Klopp however expended a huge amount of energy 1st half with the Diamond, as it saps loads of energy in all CM's (for us). Leicester also btw played the Diamond versus Soton at the weekend too. The very same problems as well. It's very counterproductive probably anyway to "sit" a tip-of-the-Diamond player on a player like Romeu, as he's just a class-act who is totally unconcerned by any swarm-pressing stuff. He'll just ride the pressure and still do his job, to very good effect anyway, which he did do. You want to maybe force him to make fast-passing decisions ...but that's what he actually likes anyway and it's one thing he's very good at ;-) Ouch!

    Our Diamond was fluid in some ways as well. The maybe fixed elements were Hendo at the base and with also Emre Can sat very deep, maybe too lateral and narrow (and strangely switched-over and now on the right-side in shuttling). Left-sided shuttler(s) were first Lallana (with Cou at the tip of the Diamond), while it then flip-flopped a lot, but mostly Cou shuttling on the left. Firmino and Sturridge also incidentally (and even quite often) also moved into the Diamond tip-role too ...whilst our defensive shape often approached a flat 4-4-2 and some attacking shapes switched to a more (in-fielded) type of 4-3-3. Confused yet? I was in 1st half as to just who was (trying to) do what role. The very clear idea was to be extremely narrow in the core of the team .... but also promoting width with both Milner and TAA very high, very wide, very isolated too (as the Diamond is just so narrow), but also ultra-attacking - as-in full-on width being sought on the night.

    It was a shame then that our crossing was so abysmal on the night - as Klopp also heavily prioritized crossing in the game. Our best cross of the night was maybe Hendo (strangely enough) popping up at LW on some Cou stuff and crossing it (on his wrong foot) very well and then Sturridge just not connecting with it (also on the wrong aka right foot). Pity that stuff! That was at about minute 60+ or so. We by then needed something that bit more unexpected to get the goal.

    I would firmly believe though that if Klopp wanted to turn to Diamond stuff for us ...then why first Origi-Firmino and now lately Sturridge-Firmino here. The very best usage would be Origi-Sturridge (surely!) here. Just because Diamond is promoting getting in behind. If Klopp wants a Diamond solution, then either no Firmino (however good) or else at the tip role ...and then Cou shuttling maybe.

    The other aspect of criticism would be more based on the CM triangle stuff. Hendo and Emre Can is a very terrible combination in the Diamond stuff. Wijnaldum was just sat on the bench too. Not injured either. Then an 88th minute sub-in. That stuff almost beggars belief. Emre Can (for example and 2nd half) spots a Sturridge off-the-shoulder run and then picks his pass in (which just goes 10 yards too-long and straight to the Forster ) Goddamn that. Another move and same time-frame and Cou and Firmino combine at edge of box and the ball then falls to Can. Milner has meantime sprinted ahead (anticipating stuff) and has fallen over in the box. Fully 5 yards offside ....but Can gets the ball, somehow "sees" a red shirt in the box - and then passes it towards Milner, who is laid prone and miles off-side. A diabolical passing decision. The TV cameras then spin to Rush in the stands and cue some multiple head shakes. You just gotta play heads-up football, don't you! Or do you?

    If Klopp wants to play Diamond, then why not deploy Wijnaldum? A guy who is very familiar with it's intricacies, instead of just putting Emre Can on the teamsheet ...to do what exactly? To babysit Hendo or to just recycle ball slowly. Goddamn that stuff. Both are about 5 yards laterally apart about 60% of the time and combining to do exactly what? That was almost criminal by Klopp on the night.
     
  4. westcoastbias79

    westcoastbias79 Active Member

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    This is really all I ask of the new Boot Room -- adaptability.

    That they aren't so set in their ways, so tied to what was successful at BVB, that they aren't willing to experiment and make changes based on new circumstances.
     
  5. Livvy

    Livvy Well-Known Member

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    Maybe i am misunderstanding some things but Klopp has never played a 4-3-3 at Dortmund and there were enough reports at the beginning of that season that they (Lijnders, Klopp and co.) developed that new system for the team together? Of course they will need to "fine tune" it over time but there is no reason to think he would be stubborn hold onto his old system?
     
  6. westcoastbias79

    westcoastbias79 Active Member

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    Right, I just meant the idea of super high octane, always-attacking football, whatever the formation used. From what I've seen, BVB ran out a 4-2-3-1 at their peak. And I read Cruyff's Barca used a 3-4-3.

    1 game every 3 days for an entire month (and the effects of that over the next few months), vs. a system that requires 90mins of thoughtful, intricate attacking and intense pressing. That's all I'm saying.
     
  7. cardiffpete

    cardiffpete TIA Reserve Team

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    No he didn't aka the 4-3-3 stuff at BVB, but yes at LFC (2nd and current season though).

    Our latest (and bad) run at LFC has seen the Diamond feature quite a bit. Also Klopp's last-gasp system versus Southampton was to revert to the basic 3-5-2 stuff, which was also seen from half-time onwards versus Wolves (and then 2-0 down) at the weekend. Almost identical templates though from the 4-1-2-3 to the 4-4-2-D to 3-5-2 ...all throughout January. 1000+ passes per game, actual first shot at goal at about minute 60', very slow build-up, about 80% possession in the actual game. Maybe 4 shots on goal overall in the entire game. Forcing intricate attacking play in attack templates, with fully 7 men (!) ahead of the ball, so so easily countered then.

    None of this was there early season, it was all underpinned (very sanely too). Full throttle from the kick-off, whereas now maybe getting up to speed after about 65 mins and already behind by then. Just confidence though. You start to lose games or draw games and it sets in. Not invincible anymore. Pass it more slowly, more conservatively, make less dynamic runs etc. Soon enough the entire attack is almost at stand-still, or else is forced to a stand-still because no good balls are arriving anymore (or the catch-22 stuff that the forward lines waits because the CM stuff is not delivering anymore).

    Just about every single match in January has seen LFC make about 1000+ passes, maybe get 4 on-target shots at goal, maybe first shot at goal at about minute 60 or-so. Tons of slow possession though. Mane might help here tonight against Chelsea!! Our best player back again, plus Matip also back ...plus maybe Cou at attacking LW. All of that makes a good difference, cumulatively too. Mostly Mane though ;-)
     
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  8. Flobs

    Flobs FADA

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    To be honest I have struggled to see any formation of late. Just looks a bit undisciplined or far to fluid to me. So I congratulate you on seeing the overall picture on formations. :-)
     
  9. cardiffpete

    cardiffpete TIA Reserve Team

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    The tactics used by Klopp at half-time are maybe worth a mention.

    Swapping Gini and Can around at half-time was a pretty good decision, particularly the very important bit of who was going to be the designated player to hit the box the most. Can was (and has often been) the one clearly preferred here by Klopp to accomplish this role (since past October anyway), but surely Gini has to be far more suited to it aka an actual goal/assist threat.

    The other 2 major half-time changes by Klopp were:

    1) A massive gamble taken (and from minute one in 2nd half already) to just permanently post both full-backs very high. At least 15 yards higher. No tracking back anymore, just always high.That worked pretty well too, as it gave us the attacking width we had been starved of in the much slower ball circulation stuff of 1st half. It also gave us a more consistent 5-man in the box attack template, which was best illustrated on Gini's goal equalizer. This horrible January run - and we have simply gotten so few of our players into the box, consistently. Once upon a time 7 were doing it, lately maybe one or 2 (at max). 5 is a big number then ...even if 2 of these were Clynie and Milner ;-) It also instantly better promoted our CM ball-circulation cq rotation stuff too, especially with Gini also getting the nod simultaneously to be our one CM most designated to play higher-up as well. A certain risk-element was involved here as well, if (for example) Conte suddenly decided to actually open-up and to start attacking us. That only really happened last 10 minutes though, as with most Italian coaches ;-) seriously going for a title. They just keep it ultra-tight in away games to direct rivals and then go for it a home and against the lesser teams instead.

    You can also see the problem on the Costa penalty-award as well. Just 2/3 passes needed to carve through us centrally, to move ball about 70 yards up-field in just mere seconds, allied with some very shockingly poor defending from us. Lovren very impulsive then (the main culprit here) ...but Matip should never have allowed Costa into our box. Just take the yellow 5 yards outside of box instead. Do not (ever) carry an in-form striker into the (in)security of your own box, on a 2v2 attack. Just take-him-out outside. Just take the inevitable yellow. Just get smart.

    2) Switching the entire front trio back at least 5 yards, also from minute one in second-half. Then instead of being almost permanently static in our attack templates and almost within touch contact with their defenders, now we were much more roving and on the move - by all 3 operating between the lines. Not much space at all to be found between Conte's ultra-narrow last line of 4 and his next line of 5 ...but at least that small adjustment (of a mere 5 yards back), did allow us to be then coming onto their defense instead of already there (1st half stuff). We were 1-0 down and looking very unlikely to recover. This Klopp tweak was very important here ...to at least give us some chance, of gaining an attacking half-yard (here or there) against Conte's boa-constrictor-like smother-defense.

    The major tactical failing could well be Klopp not playing Mane from-the-off. Same idea as with Matip here. Player available, player desperately missed. All boxes basically checked. What to do? OK, let's give him a couple of minutes, instead of actually playing him. Just trust the incumbent players instead. Klavan was however a basic train-wreck vs Swansea, which Matip only got a tiny small taste at minute 89'. Klavan since removed, but surely one game too late. Can was (yet again) very poor vs Chelsea, while Mane just sat on the bench instead. You can bet on the switch-out of Can for Mane vs Hull now at the weekend ....but it's yet again maybe one game too late. That's 5 more points lost btw. Why ever would you wait around here?

    LFC and Klopp IMHO just cannot afford the luxury of "resting" a top-line player, who for one reason or another has not featured for several games. Klopp also yanked Mane at 1-3 up against Bournemouth, on minute 69'. Maybe not fully needed anymore and for sure the 4-3 was very unexpected ...but still. Also Gini injured on Dutch international duty a few months ago and then left on bench (in favour of Can) for quite a few games thereafter. Even when Gini did get back for us, his primary role of the hit-the-box guy for us had already been "given away" to Emre Can. At times some very WTF stuff here. Why wait that one extra game to deploy your better impact players ...and meanwhile still stick with a known non-performing unit instead. The change is going to happen anyway. Why ever do the change "too politely" here? aka Klavan surely knew his starting XI days were numbered once Matip was back. Why give him a intermediate and transitional (one final game) then? That does not make a lot of sense to me.

    Anyways a decent enough point for us. Now it's becoming 3 from 5 for the CL tickets and a massive dog-fight until season's end. Chelsea probably walking the title race too.
     
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  10. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    You wanted to start mane after 120 minutes on the saturday, a flight home and maybe a days rest? He would not have been ready for a ninety minutes, no way. If he got thrown in from the start and got injured, which the likelihood would have increased, then what? We have another prolonged period of absence because of a lack of patience and understanding of sports science. Add to the fact there was always a possibility of mentalality not being right after his penalty miss and the decision is most definitely correct not to start him.
     
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  11. Kanonkop

    Kanonkop Well-Known Member

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    Not really more likely to get injured playing e.g. first 45 than last 20. If he is OK to come on as a sub then he would have been OK to start also.
     
  12. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    No, why you think they had to put the pack on his leg? It was taking longer for his muscles to free up. During the 120 mins game it's likely he reached his lactate threshold, the longer he played beyond that point the more his muscles would deteriorate, so if he played forty-five as opposed to twenty in the extra twenty five minutes it's placing added lactate and hydrogen ions into an already damaged muscle. Add in the flight time, in a period where the body should be recovering, and blood circulation is decreased therefore slowing oxygen and nutrients getting to the muscles and limiting his game time was vitally important. Now I don't know his levels of VO2max or his lactate threshold but I would wager he was given a once over and recommended for the amount of time he got.
     
  13. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Damn..... I say damn..... But one thing I can associate with is the damn cabin pressure thing, you do get tired far easier after a plane ride, than a luxury coach ride with same travel time. No matter what class you are in, the cabin pressure takes a toll on your body.
     
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  14. cardiffpete

    cardiffpete TIA Reserve Team

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    I posted something about "vertical passing" being a very nice feature in football players (maybe a week or so ago) ...and cue then a whole shed load of reactions in the trant of "What is this strange and very unusual term you are talking about here? ;-) ". Understandable stuff though. Going pretty technical by both footie analysts (and commentators too) is expected and is actually very commonplace in Continental Europe, but it's also something that has simply never caught-on in the English speaking countries, where even a relatively simple term like a "wall pass" is just never mentioned on MOTD stuff. They won't ever go there - as it might over-complicate the game for the neutral watching public. Heaven help us then, if footie analysts ever started to talk about carbs, metabolism, intensity etc.

    However, not even one single Continental Europe footie pundits would never (ever! ...as in never, ever, ever!!! ;-)) go into ultra deep speak of the darker-science concepts of things like VO2 (max), inflection points ...the whole world of ATP over EP/ETC (thus maxing out) and the (un)buffering of acid blood of lactate threshold in the trio move from Glyco > Krebs > Electron transportation stuff aka overloading the breakdown of ATP stuff on the lower efficiency ETC bottleneck filtering stuff.

    ETC cannot handle the ATP required, so that then revs up the (insane) over-production of the Glyc's ...which then floods the blood with LT (lactate threshold), which is unbuffered (and basically) acid (aka reflux stuff). However ....you do NOT then put any ice-pack on your knee haha ;-) to counteract that stuff. You will just physically throw-up ...and you throw-up very violently too. As sick as can be, if you want ;-) Then your body resets itself, very fast.

    An LT overload is semi-instantly transmitted to the brain by the neuron-receptors anyway, complete nausea then just immediately occurs, a force-halt so-to-speak ...and within a very ultra-short timespan of about 5 minutes the body then sorts itself out auto-magically. LT/VO2 (max) is really the world of high endurance triathletes or else some very long cycling races, or else altitude climbing (which is my own stuff). Why are you projecting the world of cycling into football matters though?

    LT measuring is only ever a snapshot anyway and is always very affected by (and very conditional upon) hydration issues, sleep (or lack of it), acclimatization (altitude stuff), any stressing factors, your nutrition, timezone moves, hormonal imbalances etc. Sadio would not however be attempting to run a marathon, after no rest or sleep, while also jet-lagged and stressed-out after having just completed a triathlon ...if you get me here ;-) And he wouldn't be reaching for an ice-pack ...he'd be straight-up reaching for the barf-bag, if LT struck ;-)

    VO2 and LT stuff (aka the measuring of it) has it's real values in the world of high-intensity endurance athletes, like triathlon and the very longest cycle races. Maybe not quite so applicable to footie though. Footie is more stop-start and incidental top speeds. It is for sure becoming more of a physically challenging sport fitness-wise, but not sustained output-wise, like cycling. Just my 2 cents ;-)
     
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  15. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    The first thing is it wasn't an ice pack they put on his leg, it was a heating pack, this will bring the blood to the area, the general rule here is ice within 48 hours, heat thereafter. They wanted to warm up his muscles, thus my feeling he was not fully recovered.
    I agree with most of what your saying, but lactate threshold is relevant to any endurance event, its just more prevalent in cycling and distance running. Soccer is a repeat sprintability sport, and as such has endurance elements, the rough breakdown from studies conducted is
    1) Walking 24%
    2) Jogging 36%
    3) long stride 20%
    4) Sprinting 11%
    5) Backwards 7%
    6) In possession 2%
    Sprinting, long strides and in possession can be taking as high intensity work-out, where walking and backwards wouldn't generally be the most taxing on the individual(although backwards can be high intensity also) while jogging would be the endurance element of football. So 33% of movements are high intensity while an additional 36% is going to be adding to the lactate buildup. At rest your lactate level will already be at between 0.8-1.2mmol/litre of blood. The lactate threshold is around 2mmol/litre of blood. The threshold only refers to the point where your body is producing more lactate than it is removing from the muscles. During a ninety minute game with players at peak fitness it is unlikely that they will exceed the threshold too a critical level where, as you say, the body will shut down, however they will pass it and as such nutrition and rest becomes a vital component of recovery, add in another 30 mins of game time and there is further deterioration. Passing the threshold does not immediately mean that you will be violently sick or collapse,which the collapsing has more to do with oxygen, as the brain has been starved of it while your running or cycling, then shuts down the muscles so oxygen will be diverted back to it, that is central governance theory.

    As for ATP I assume you mean adenosine triphosphate? As in the sliding filament theory of muscle contraction?

    Edit: On your first point about pundits not talking about it, yes I can understand why they don't, that sort of sport science is not "sexy T.V." but the need for it is understood, hence why every club has or at least consults a nutritionist or strength and conditioning coach.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
  16. cardiffpete

    cardiffpete TIA Reserve Team

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    Still that little bit too much technical information for any normal everyday football forum though, I would strongly suspect ;-)

    Maybe better not to go there! The whole science angle is taken care of behind-the-scences by our dedicated staff, specialized in that area. Their work and approach angles can be vital - but to overload the match-going fans with info that they neither want nor need to know about is going a bit too far maybe. Better to celebrate a goal, than to know the actual physics behind it haha.
     
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  17. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    Fair enough it's just my reasoning as to why he didn't/shouldn't have started.
     
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  18. Dane

    Dane IN SUPPORT

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    Thanks for sharing.

    After nearly 50 years of watching the beautiful game, only now do I feel I can finally start to understand it.

    God bless these forums.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2017
  19. Artrain

    Artrain Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing that with us @cardiffpete and @James H. I haven't got a clue what you were on about but its good to know there are people here who can explain what most won't understand. lol
     
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  20. cardiffpete

    cardiffpete TIA Reserve Team

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    I've never seen VO2-max being discussed before in any footie forum, bar on James's entry here. Then I replied a bit of course.

    I also code myself (C++, C, Java etc ...and Python too), in computer languages stuff. In Python language (for example) you have something special called the meta-class, which is almost like some sort-of black-magic stuff. For decades, nobody in public would even acknowledge or even reference the darkest-of-dark (almost black magic stuff) of the Python meta-classing stuff. You can do some crazy shit with it btw. Appallingly bad or else good and up-to-you stuff, but nobody had a clue here. Now, It's getting taught at Stanford and at MIT too. Really basic implements, and still ultra-primitive stuff maybe ...but this stuff is actually now being taught at Uni-level!! You can also see the IT-grads stumbling around to make a lecture interesting too, around meta stuff. Their version of the darkest-of-dark secrets is also fun too (as still very amateur stuff) ...but it also publishes and publicizes the very hidden crafts of a hitherto ultra-secret skill ability, in programming stuff. Not sure I like that disclosure here. It unleashes some insane powers, after all.

    I then do not know whether to be happy or else very sad here. Any public exposure to the crazy stuff of Python meta stuff is to just open Pandora's box. Maybe anyway. VO2 (max) in footie might be some similar stuff, except that VO2 is more normal, while Python meta stuff is for only the very few.
     
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  21. Dane

    Dane IN SUPPORT

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    Having watched the transformation in our performance against Chelesea, from those against Swansea, Southampton, Plymouth and Wolves, it's dawned on me that Klopp has finally found the key to success.

    The extrapolated inverted running which we saw can only be a result of his studying and inevitable implementation of the little known Beta Hybrid Injection (BHI) training methods.

    They are known only to the most intelligent of football fans, but those who know, know.

    If we continue to adopt BHI at Melwood, what we will see on the pitch will astound even the most ignorant of football supporters.

    Looking forward to the run in.
     
    lfc.eddie likes this.
  22. Rambler

    Rambler Bootle Boy

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    Football got complicated for me when Tommy Smith started wearing the number 10 shirt....he was a rough diamond though.

    Has anyone seen LA LA Land...?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
  23. Kanonkop

    Kanonkop Well-Known Member

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    Firstly thanks to both you and @James H for your inputs - I actually find this level of insight and discussion interesting and it makes the forum a better place.

    On the coding side - lots of funky stuff emerging now and a lot of it around Agent Based Modelling, Machine Learning and other AI approaches to deal with big data analytics (first cleaning and curating the data in real time of course). Often a debate then whether to code in C++ or Python/R/Scala as there are pros/cons to each approach.

    Anyway, that's a digression although no doubt there will be AI work into football emerging very very soon also so perhaps not a major digression at all!!!
     
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  24. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    What about those other methods I read about, the talk of Cross Running Area Penetration and Ball Shifter passing method? Those are vital too in my opinion.
     
  25. KCollins

    KCollins Active Member

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    Recurring theme; Dominate possession, opposing team defends deep allowing us endless pointless possession and harmless shots from distance, they hit us direct on the break, exposing our non existant defensive set up, and capitalise on the easy pickings.

    The worst was Burnley 2-0 Liverpool

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/37067882

    "The 19% of possession that the Clarets [Burnley] had is the lowest total by a winning side in the Premier League since Opta began recording the statistic in the 2003-04 season"


    We have been unbalanced all season and because our attack isn't functioning our defensive frailty is costing us.

    Among other things, we need a defensive midfielder. No team wins without someone who patrols the back four. The first half in Istanbul is the prime example of what happens when you dont have a specialist in there to shut down the threat of the opposing midfield attackers. We need a commanding central defender, someone who is vocal. We also need a goalkeeper who isn't terrified of crosses. The team is flaky. Bar Milner there are no men. Lucas being in the back line epitomises how weak we are.

    It's easy overlooking our obvious defensive weakness when we were top (which most on here did). It was obvious that eventually it would cost us as the attack can't keep bailing out the weakness in the team. No team can be this lopsided towards attack and be successful (none since Brazil 1970). It's not possible. You have to be able able to grind out 1-0 wins when not playing well (something we rarely manage to do). We usually have to score three or four to win games such is the pisspoor defensive set up. But when the attack stops functioning as it was then you need your defence to come to the fore, which is when we get punished.
     
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  26. Noo Noo

    Noo Noo Well-Known Member

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    We have possession but certainly dont dominate it. We aren't really in control of the game despite having the ball the majority of the time. Our opposition is hardly ever stressed.

    I want to be a little critical of the front 4 who cough up possession far too easily, try the impossible and have zero patience or composure. The ball comes back to the defence who give it to Henderson and we start all over again. 30 seconds later the opposition get a toe in and its back at the defence.

    Look at things this way. Imagine Alonso in midfield pulling strings. I suspect things would have been different today.
     
  27. Dane

    Dane IN SUPPORT

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    I think the time has come to just go back to playing football the old fashioned way.
    We had reasonable success with it for years.
     
  28. Da Bulli

    Da Bulli Well-Known Member

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    An anecdote which you may relate to.
    In another life I was on a construction site when a site foreman came running over to the group I was with and shouted to our gun welder "Johnny, you got to come and weld the gas main now." Johnny looks and asks , " what procedure do I do, Mig,Tig, full pen bla bla?", and the foreman, who was also an owner of the business and under considerable pressure from liquidated damages, just looks at him at incredulously and screamed " just fucking fill it up!".
     
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  29. Retro Helix

    Retro Helix Member

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    I came here to read about tactics and this is what I find:
    - lactate threshold
    - neuron receptors
    - hormonal imbalances
    - central governance theory
    - adenosine triphosphate
    - meta classing
    - agent based modelling
    - beta hybrid injection
    :think:
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2017
    lfc.eddie likes this.
  30. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    To be fair they are a part of tactics, tactics isn't just dreaming up a formation and sending them out to play, tactical planning involves recovery and periodization, that's how managers plan for peaks throughout the year.

    And especially with our high intensity game plan, the staff needs a plan to keep players in peak condition, seems to have failed us this year, hopefully will be rectified going forward.
     
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