Lucas Leiva (CB/DM) Inter Milan (loan to permanent)

Discussion in 'Rumour Mill - Transfer Talk' started by StrongINTheAir, Dec 27, 2016.

  1. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    If nothing else he will go down in history as the guy who made Klopp laugh so hard for that shot last season and for that video in the club shop which has become a popular internet meme...
     
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  2. schmee

    schmee Am I my own mentor or my own worst enemy?

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    Am I right in thinking that Elessar registered for these forums after Zag got banned?

    Lucas is nowhere near a legend for Liverpool. Granted he's closer to that status than Smicer but still nowhere near it.

    There have been tonnes of players who were really nice people who have been on the Club's book a long time. Doesn't qualify them as being legends though. Unless, of course, you see hundreds of different players as legends.

    Legendary status, in my opinion, is for the elite few. Not for the masses.

    And going back to this tackling fact being bandied about. So what? If you want to sit down and explain why one small part of a player's game makes them great please go for it.

    Why tackles and not interceptions? Is reading of the game and so positioning yourself so that you'll not be forced to takle somehow worth less than tackling itself? There are many, many aspects that go towards being a great player. Picking one statistic without comparing and contrasting it with other meaningful statistics proves very little. It definitely doesn't warrant being repeated constantly in case the rest of us reading this thread have somehow forgotten what we read five posts ago.

    I like Lucas. He's never been the best of players bar that spell before his injury against chelsea where he was excellent. Before and after that he's been decent enough buy his complete lack of pace and reactions to players taking him on made him a weakness to be exploited many times in recent years.

    It's no coincidence that it's him who is consistently just a bit behind when going for the ball and constantly giving away free kicks in dangerous areas. I said it the other day and I stand by it that it's gone way beyond the stage where it happens so often it's expected of him now.

    I think the much slower pace of the Italian league would be a good place for him to spend his next few years at least. I'd much prefer us to use younger players who could improve with the game time such as Gomez or Stewart than have Lucas take a spot in the starting eleven. He's also way behind Klavan for a cb position too in my opinion.

    As I said I like the guy. He's been a great professional, although I imagine if most of us were getting that pay packet every week we would be too, but he's simply not good enough for a Club wanting to push on and consistently fight for top trophies. Let him play regularly in a league that he's much better suited to where he'd likely prove to be much more beneficial to the team due to the league playing more towards his strengths.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
  3. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    @schmee, Smicer is by no means a legend. Just because he scored the second goal of our come back does not make him a legend. Like you said, very, very few players would I classify them as club legends and at my age, my serious following of the club starts in the 80s and those were guys I have watched and probably labelled a few of those legends. The undoubted one for me would probably be the likes of Dalglish, Rush, Barnes, Gerrard, Thompson (our assistant manager to Houllier), Hyypia, Alonso, Hamann and those are just top of my head. But the turn of the century squads, I can't say I can see many that would be in that list other than those I have named.
     
  4. shachart

    shachart Our greatest win

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    I agree with many that calling Lucas a legend is a bit much, a cult hero might be a better fit. It would have been nice to refer to him as fan favorite, but I can't remember any player in the history of the club that has divided opinion so much as Lucas.
    I think Klopp using Lucas as CB is a smart move, similiar to moving Milner to LB. It is a great thing to have on your bench a player who can cover both CB and DM. Looking to the future, with Gomez and Klavan above Lucas in the pecking order, it pretty much leaves him back as DM backup. But since I assume in the summer we will get some new players, even that option will drop. I can't see him staying pass the summer.

    I hope he finishes this season with us and gets to win some silverware, he deserves it. Hopefully he will find a somewhere he will be appreciated. I think he stills has a lot to offer ( see last season match against Arsenal ).
     
  5. Klopperman

    Klopperman New Member

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    Carragher Fowler and Hansen are definitely legends
     
  6. KCollins

    KCollins Active Member

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    Please God Inter take him (they used to be a huge club).

    Twilight zone stuff uttering the word legend near this bang average player. I've heard this "would be nice for Lucas to win something after 10 years"...there's a great big reason why he (and we, bar the League Cup which he missed) hasn't won anything in ten years and he's at the heart of it. If there is one player I'd name to sum up our fall since 2009 (bar the 2013-14 season when we almost won the league, which he missed) it is Lucas Leiva. From Alonso to Lucas...from controlling games in midfield to getting torn to pieces. Poulson gets seen as the poster boy for the Hodgson era..but he was only here five minutes so didn't do much damage...this fella has been here a decade.

    Offers nothing going forward (what he was originally bought for), bizarrely converted into a holding mid when he can't tackle to save his life, gives away free kicks for fun, and being painfully slow routinely gets overrun. Can count on one hand the number of good games he's had.

    Regarding Smicer...scored one goal and the crucial penalty in the shoot out in Istanbul in what was arguably the greatest night the club has ever had. To put Lucas anywhere near him is an insult. Ten years at Liverpool...how on earth did he manage ten years at Liverpool? Very nice fella, never rocked the boat, good pro, so wish him the best when he leaves...hopefully soon.
     
  7. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    Lucas didnt miss the 2013/14 season he played in 29 of the 43 competitive games we played that season. He had an impressive run of games when Stevie was out around November and almost everyone had been predicting the end of the world...

    His best season though is probably Kenny's final one as manager, when he was quite dominant in midfield until he suffered a serious knee injury which he has never really recovered from - robbing him of what little pace he had. Without another DM, and struggling for goals the team fell apart the rest of the season despite winning a trophy that year.
     
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  8. KCollins

    KCollins Active Member

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    Genuinely i hadn't seen this post (if I had I'd just have said "I concur with everything" and wouldn't have bothered typing out what I stated above).

    Bang average are the two words that sum him up for me.

    Regards Carra...he is without doubt a club legend. What makes him great is his intelligence. Was he the most technically gifted? No, but he was among the smartest. His positional sense was exceptional (watching endless footage of Baresi and the Milan back line would have helped). He was a sponge who was able to get the maximum out of his abilities..and yes, he was world class for us. Genuine world class. One moment that summed up how good he was for me was Istanbul second half...Crespo was running clear. Most defenders would have ran after him (and therefore made it easy for Crespo to cut the ball back to an unmarked teammate) but Carra held back..stayed with Shevchenko (think it was him) and as soon as the pass was made Carra blocked it. Our defence was excellent when it had a proper holding mid infront (Hamann, Mascherano). Stick Lucas infront and you are inviting the opposition to run riot.
     
  9. KCollins

    KCollins Active Member

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    Henderson, Gerrard, Coutinho, Sturridge, Suarez, Sterling. That was our front six. Allen was the next in line in midfield.

    29 times is a nonsense...lucas got an appearance at OT..all 4 minutes of him.

    In any case this is academic as we were awful defensively that season (the very role a proper defensive midfielder would have massively altered). He neither contributed defensively or offensively. He wasn't capable of either.
     
  10. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    ??

    I don't think Lucas was a vital cog in 13/14 by any means but he started 20 games in the league that year and came on as sub in 7 more. He may have played more were it not for injury ruling him out of at least 5 league fixtures.
     
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  11. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    Started 21 games and came on as substitute in 8 games, stayed on the bench in 4.

    http://www.lfchistory.net/Players/Player/GamesPerSeason/1180-123

    We were not that bad defensively during the first half of the season.
     
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  12. KCollins

    KCollins Active Member

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    Ok take back the comment regarding his appearances...however given that we were awful defensively (50 league goals conceded was it?) and he was the holding mid, it's just a further indictment how average he is.

    I think we can all agree that we had an outrageous attack that season that almost carried us to the league title despite the midtable level defensive set up.
     
  13. KCollins

    KCollins Active Member

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    Not only was he nowhere near being a vital cog, it would have been done inspite of him. Winning games 5-3 and 3-2, with him contributing zilch in attack. We didnt control games, we were wide open defensively. That season was widely regarded as being one in which we had a front five (Suarez/Sturridge in particular) that almost pulled off a title win. The two strikers scored goals out of nothing. The current team on the otherhand control games and there's a build up to the goals.
     
  14. KCollins

    KCollins Active Member

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    http://www.liverweb.org.uk/season.asp?season=201314

    Anyone defending this yard dog needs their head examined.

    Eleven match winning streak (no Lucas)...in comes Lucas against Chelsea and the gaping hole appears in midfield.

    As I said nice fella, good pro, bought as an attacking mid but quickly found out he couldn't cut it, made into a defensive mid as a result inspite of him not being able to tackle, having no pace, getting turned easily, and offering zero protection infront of the back four.

    Never fair to single out one player as being the sole responsibility for the demise of a team, but safe to say the summer of 2009 that saw Alonso leave and Lucas take his place is about as big a downgrade you can get. That one change transformed us, and bar that outrageous attack in 2013-14 it's been awful prior to Jurgen taking over.
     
  15. ILLOK

    ILLOK In the Danger Zone.

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    Lucas came in to the side at Norwich (which we won), not against Chelsea.

    I thought he was shit against Norwich but still, you're distorting the facts.
     
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  16. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    Given our defensive personnel that season I find it odd that Lucas attracts all the ire. Also that game against Chelsea you mention saw Gerrard lose possession of the ball when under no pressure which led to the first goal - I don't see how that is Lucas's fault.
     
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  17. Anonym0us

    Anonym0us TIA Youth Team

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    well if you look at this seasons performances he has done way better than Can.

    probably why we may end up keeping him.
     
  18. Quagmire81

    Quagmire81 TIA Regular

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    I think the lack of his presence that season compare to how successful it was is the point.
    I wholehearted agree to that notion, I always felt (ever since he took over from Alonso as a starter as KCollins mention) Lucas had a negative effect on our play and overall results. I find it amazing how long he has managed to prolong his career here on pretty much goodwill cause his level has always been mediocre at best.
     
  19. Quagmire81

    Quagmire81 TIA Regular

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    With Can's form this season, does that really say much? I don't agree mind you.
     
  20. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Not unless we offer him a new contract, he will be free to leave. And how is he better than Can this season? Both equally dire....
     
  21. i_still_miss_fowler

    i_still_miss_fowler Well-Known Member Moderator

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    If you look at your Stats is tells you the exact opposite.

    That season we lost 6 games, those are 6 games Lucas started. Out of the 6 games we drew he started 2 of them. Given he only started 21 games .....

    Also that season we conceded 50 goals (10th best in the league). That is poor. Given we lost games when Lucas was on the pitch (or score draws) there is a pretty strong correlation.
     
  22. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    He started games like the one where we hammered Spurs so In 2013/14 his performances weren't that detrimental to the side. Clearly he has never been Mascherano or Alonso standard but it saddens me that people have to down play his contributions.

    It's not his fault successive managers have not bought a proper DM to replace him.
     
  23. Elessar

    Elessar Well-Known Member

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    Lucas didn't play in the deep position in many of the games he started that season. Gerrard played in the deep position. Lucas played higher up the pitch.
     
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  24. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    Is this in reply to me?

    Yes, we lost 6 games he played in but some of that is coincidence no? For example, Against teams like Arsenal, Chelsea and City the odds of us losing are increased - and of those 4 losses I don't recall Lucas doing much wrong.

    Again, I'm not trying to say he was brilliant, I just don't get the need to dismiss his contribution entirely. As for the goals conceded, Has everyone forgotten how poor Skrtel was that season?
     
  25. mattyhurst

    mattyhurst TIA Regular

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    To be honest we are asking for trouble if we ship out Lucas this window. I'm still of the persuasion that we are short across the board and the likes of Stewart just aren't doing it for me.
     
  26. KCollins

    KCollins Active Member

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    Of which he was meant to be part of. Is he or is he not a holding midfielder? He's laughable going forward (literally, see Klopp), therefore his job is more defensive...a job he was never going to succeed in because he never had the tools. Can he tackle? No. Does he have the legs to track opposing attacking midfielders?...lost count the amount of times players skipped past him (Nasri doing so in his last game at Arsenal sticks out). Can he dictate play?...slow, predictable often wasteful passing, never have we controlled a game post Alonso.

    Other than get overrun in midfield, giving away cheap free kicks (latest at Sunderland on the edge of the box for their equaliser), what does Lucas do?

    The six losses when Lucas started is not a coincidence. "Oh they were against better teams"...playing against better teams is exactly when you are tested, not gimmes when you can coast and not get exposed. You earn your reputation against the better quality, that's where he failed. The attack almost carried us to the league...the defensive side of the game, against the better teams, cost us in the end.

    In terms of the Chelsea game you mentioned...Gerrard slipping near central midfield should not equate to a free run in on goal. Half a field of space...who sets up a team like that? That was Rodgers doing as the fella is tactically inept defensively. Lucas didn't help one iota though and the loss of Henderson was evident to everyone.
     
  27. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    Of course he is part of the defence, but that doesnt mean he should be blamed for all the goals conceded - other players are responsible too, which is pretty much what you are doing. Yes, our attack was our strength, and our defence not very good, but part of that was down to us especially in the second half of the season putting too much emphasis on attack, leading to the defence getting further exposed.

    As for Sunderland - it wasnt a foul, the free kick shouldnt have been given.

    It may surprise you that DMs generally dont have good attacking stats - so i'm not sure why this is such a big issue for you. He isnt picked because he adds an attacking threat, he's usually picked because he is deemed as the best option for adding solidity - which successive managers must consider he does as they have had the opportunity to replace him and they havent. Are there better options available on the market - yes of course there is. Is it Lucas's fault that none of those options have been signed - no.

    So, the Chelsea game, Gerrard slips, it's therefore brendans fault for the set but its also Lucas's fault? and Hendo's fault for being sent off at City?- why isnt it Gerrards fault?
     
  28. Elessar

    Elessar Well-Known Member

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    So the player that made the most tackles in the PL the last decade and got very few yellow cards, very few penalties considering that can't tackle?

    I think that is the most laughable I have ever read on the net.
     
  29. Scott Jones

    Scott Jones Well-Known Member

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    Your view of him is delusional and even more laughable.:-)
     
  30. Elessar

    Elessar Well-Known Member

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    Well, I don't think it is laughable to say that Lucas is a top class tackler. That is not one of his weaknesses, that is one of his strenghts. He has a few weaknesses that already been mentioned many times, tackling isn't one of them.

    If he would be a bad tackler then he would get a lot of yellow and red cards and he would give away a lot of penalties.

    I don't think he given away even five pens the last decade. I don't think he even got one red card, maybe one or two, can't remember that but to say that a player can't tackle when he makes a lot of them and almost all of them good ones is laughable :shocked:
     

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