Discussion in 'Rumour Mill - Transfer Talk' started by StrongINTheAir, Dec 27, 2016.
No not funny at all.
Last night he tried to tackle with his hands as he'd completely failed to block his man and had fallen over. But I guess he wasn't carded?
Where is the stat of most tackles last decade, I'm not saying your lying but it is your main point for Lucas but you haven't backed it up.
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I think this is all time though (PL) so not just last ten years but as Lucas comes narrowly second to someone who's played in the PL for more than 20 years it's probably fair to surmise that he leads the last ten.
Rather than surmise, it's better to break it down by year! His place in most PL tackles per year:
15/16 - joint 5th
14/15 - not in top 20
13/14 - not in top 20
12/13 - 2nd
11/12 - not in top 20
10/11 - 1st
09/10 - 4th
08/09 - not in top 20
07/08 - not in top 20
You can excuse the odd season for injury but overall that's four seasons out of 9 that he's been among the best tacklers. (I've ignored this season as he hasn't played much.)
Compare that to Mascherano, who did almost as much in three seasons with us - 2nd (07/08), 12th (08/09) and 1st in 09/10!
Strange to find myself slating Lucas just to get some reality in the debate! He's a great bloke and decent footballer but his performance yesterday showed why he isn't a regular part of our midfield - I counted two passes all game that were incisive; everything else was sideways, which is why we lacked any real tempo. Add to that the lack of pace to recover from mistakes and the need to upgrade becomes obvious. Guessing that will be Dahoud in the summer now.
Sorry I was on my phone (which is why I did not quote properly), its fair comment to say Arsenal, Chelsea or City. But they are not really the games we lost the league.
But its not those games we lost the league, it was
2-2 Draw against Swansea, 1-0 Loss to Southampton, 3-3 Draw to Everton, 3-1 Loss to Hull, and 3-3 Draw to Crystal Palace.
When you consider we dropped points in 12 games, and 9 of those Lucas started (and Lucas only started 21) that is a correlation.
Its not really and argument for Lucas role as defensive midfielder, or role as attacker. But it does kind of illustrate the impact of when we lost either Henderson or Allen were out (Gerrard played every game).
That not to dismiss his contribution entirely, but by the time the 2013/2014 season came along here was far from his best
The obvious thing to point out is that Lucas never played as frequently as Mascherano.
Tackles per game or per 90 would see Lucas fare much better I suspect. Not that this really matters.
Swansea and Southampton were without Suarez, relying Moses and Aspas to play up front with Sturridge. Palace wasn't a game in which we lost the league, we only dropped points because we were trying to win 10-0. We'd have lost the league almost regardless of the result there.
City away is surely the most important game in which we lost the league, that's the game with the biggest points swing. Had we won or drew there we'd have won the league, all else being the same, can't say that about any other game you mentioned.
I don't quite agree, the biggest points swing was the man city game but that is a game against an equal or better team, they can go either way, however the Hull game was a team we should and would generally(that season) have beaten. Three points that would have won the league even if we had still drawn at palace and lost to Chelsea.
City lost away to Cardiff, they should have won that. They dropped 2 points at home to Sunderland towards the end of the season, they should have won that. Football doesn't work like that though as we all know.
You can theorise all you want about the points dropped but objectively speaking City away was the most important game of any game that we dropped points in that season.
Yes, but he didn't play as much because he was nowhere near the same level!
If he was as influencial over the past ten years as some people want to think, he would have started every game and regularly be in the top ten for tackling, which he simply isn't.
He was also injured a lot more.
I agree that he was nowhere near the level of Mascherano. Those who claim Lucas makes a lot of tackles are correct though, statistically speaking he has always made more tackles than pretty much every other player in the league. He's not going to make more tackles in 20 starts than most players make in 37 or 38 though.
Even with all those tackles it doesn't mean he was a particularly great defensive midfielder, football is a bit more nuanced than that. I'm sure Flanno made loads of tackles in 13/14, but he also got dribbled past more than most other players too. Sometimes standing players up without diving in is the best option but that doesn't register with OPTA. If you want to judge a player using stats you need to use all the available relevant data, not just pick one favourable number like 'total tackles made'.
When was he at his "best" mate? Must have missed that bit. He was around 28 that season...peak years.
Regards tackle statistics...he would have got through a lot more because when he was on the field our midfield was often dominated thus he would have been required to tackle more. Say we had Xavi for instance, the required tackle count would have nosedived as we would have had the vast majority of possession...as we did with Alonso. Another indictment of Lucas.
The most saves this season is made by who? Some bloke near the bottom of the league...overworked means poor quality. The Barca gk went games without making a save.
How did we do in those seasons? (i recall they were among the worst in living memory, 2009/10 there was one change from the team that finished 2nd the previous season...Lucas in for Alonso). Any stats for which gk made the most saves in those three seasons? (willing to bet it was gk's in the bottom three clubs)
Again, overworked from a defensive standpoint means poor quality.
Lies, damn lies and lucas statistics.
He could make 10,000 tackles (and 2,000 missed ones) for all I care...fact is it shows how weak our midfield became when he came in for Alonso. Many bog standard goalkeepers make far more saves than top goalkeepers, because they are overworked due to the lesser quality...and Lucas (and the team) was overworked defensively precisely because he was on the field.
Our tackle count would have risen dramatically from having Alonso in the team in 2009 to Lucas in 2010...ball possession would have fallen, number of wins would have fallen, league position would have fallen...but hey, we would have been dominated by the opposition alot more and the defensive side of the game would have risen! "Every cloud..."
True. I actually think Roy had plans to replace him with Poulsen but due to poor results, Lucas popularity among the fans (must be the exotic name??) and Poulsen obviously a bad cast (though he was quickly played out of position to fit Lucas in again) The next two managers did the same which surprised me a lot. The continued poor results and bad play didn't though, til Rodgers had the balls to drop him completely (the only credit I've for him) and replace him with a proper ball player, which IMO had a massive impact on our offensive play and results.
Seriously it must be the biggest mistake. miscalculation ect...ect... Benitez ever made as manager for us to pair Lucas and Mascherano as our midfield duo for a full season?! Even when Aquilani was fit he still kept playing them, it made no sense to me at that time. Not only did it cost him his job in the end (Controversial and not many will agree to that) we also lost out on CL (and good money) for a long time.
Maybe you forgot that we also reached the SF of the EL and played in the CC final that season. We also had a lot of injuries that season. That season when the team had to take the bus all the way to Spain because of a volcano.
The reason that we lost out on the CL was because of our owners, not Rafa. It would have helped if our Captain at that time, Gerrard, had showed a much better attitude. His attitude stank the place out that season. Of course you will never agree to that.
That central midfield pairing was painful to watch. Think we won 2-0 at Everton that season (Mascherano deflected goal, one of his last ever goals) and it was a shocking performance. We couldn't keep hold of the ball more than a few seconds. The central midfield has only really started to become quality again with the arrival of Jurgen.
Rafa did mess up with the Alonso situation that did indeed ultimately cost him in the end. If you asked Gerrard which player he missed most when he left it would be Alonso (something he mentioned often). If the midfield isn't functioning then you are in trouble. Being the only change in the team that had finished second the contrast in quality between Alonso and Lucas was huge. We replaced a Ferrari with a Vauxhall and Rafa was soon on his way.
Would you consider Gerard's attitude stinks in 2006/07 season? Because the season you claimed he stank the place up he played 49 and scored 12, compared to 2006/07 where he played 51 and only had 11 goals to his name. The former captain played the same amount of league games in both season while scoring 2 more goals by having bad attitude, as you claimed which cost us the Champs League spot.
This is exactly the reason why some of us, or at least me, gets into debate when it comes to Lucas' fans. They tend to bring others down, blame other players just to make Lucas look good. Why? Why the need to do that.
This isn't true. Lucas played ahead of Gerrard against Norwich and Chelsea (maybe Newcastle too?) but I can't think of another game that comes to mind in which Lucas played higher up the pitch.
Lucas and Gerrard played as a '2' a good number of times, sitting next to each other.
You can play excellent football but at the same time have a very poor attitude. It isn't only other club fans that called Gerrard for me, me, me because he had a very big ego. That season he wasn't much of a team player. That season he wasn't even close to be as good captain as he used to be.
Selective fucking memory thread.
Is Elessar actually Zag?
I'm sorry, I was under the impression this was a thread for the discussion of transfer news related to Lucas?
No need to apologise.
I don't think the transfer will go through to be honest. Inter will never come close to meet his wages here, and why would Lucas leave? After all his injuries I think his ambition level is fine with just playing a game here and there, and I think he come to terms that he won't come near the Brazil national team again. Representing your country is usually the main force behind finding a new club where you can play week in, week out to stay at your best. Those days are over for him and he knows he's nothing but a well overpaid squad player. May sound harsh and cynic but he isn't getting younger and in reality who wouldn't be comfortable in his position. I reckon he's gonna ride his contract out.
Take a wild guess when will it end....
I will be very happy if Lucas Leivus.
I always found the defence of Lucas weird, especially resorting to critiquing the man who carried the club on his back for nigh on a decade. If Gerrard's attitude ever did "stink" I'd fully understand it...can't be easy carrying average players around you for as long as he did, anyone would get disheartened after a while. Roy Keane for one would have blown up. Alonso leaving badly affected Stevie (he said so) and who was Xabi's direct replacement in the team?...step forward Lucas Leiva...the SOLE change in the team that had finished 2nd in 2009 to the bang average outfit a year later. So when Gerrard says we badly missed Xabi what he's also saying is his replacement was bogstandard.
Lucas has always come across as a nice guy so in a way I can understand those who feel the need to defend him, but this is Liverpool we are talking about, there shouldn't be any sentiment for players who prevent the club from reaching the standards set by those who wore the jersey in the past. The fella kills us more often than not when he's on the field, and has done from day one ("past his best in 2014" my ar$e).
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