Lucas Leiva (CB/DM) Inter Milan (loan to permanent)

Discussion in 'Rumour Mill - Transfer Talk' started by StrongINTheAir, Dec 27, 2016.

  1. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    So, remind me again, how exactly is Lucas preventing the club from reaching those standards? Is he stopping the club from bringing in better players? Does he pick the team?

    While he is nowhere near our best players, he is also nowhere near our worst.
     
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  2. redbj

    redbj crowd fund for you to shut up give me the details

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    It's his hypnotic eyes.....thems whats suck peoples in.....I know it, I can see it........

    Sshhhhh....he's looking at us now....I'll pm you....stay safe and keep strong....
     
  3. OLDIE

    OLDIE TIA New Signing

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    The abuse Lucas gets from our fanbase is a joke. Imagine if Phil Neville had not saved Lucas's goalbound effort at Goodison Park.

    I seem to recall us being awarded a penalty that was converted to give us another victory over Everton

    Hardly killed us from day 1. Mmmmm
     
  4. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    The problem is there is one side that defend him too much and another that give too much abuse.
    He is and has been a solid servant for the club, plugging holes where needed and having 1 or two very good seasons. A man who deserves respect if not awe.
     
  5. Elessar

    Elessar Well-Known Member

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    We should all support our players all the time even if they don't play great or fantastic. The Klopp way and a big part of the Liverpool way. A few fans think that it is fun to throw shit at players just for the sake of it. You can't praise a player to much because if they get supported by us fans then they will play better.

    Support the team and the players even if they don't deserve it in some games. IMO Lucas would have played much better if he knew that the big majority of the fans supported him. Now he know that he will get a lot of shit throwed at him as soon as he make a mistake.

    We love the club, don't we?
     
  6. Fester

    Fester Well-Known Member Valued Member

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    Well I for one appreciate and value the lad's commitment, contribution and loyalty to the club. When the time comes for him to move on I will miss him and will wish him all the very best for the future.
     
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  7. Scott Jones

    Scott Jones Well-Known Member

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    Are you a marriage counselor,:think:
     
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  8. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    I agree we should support the players, but support and praise are completely different, for instance i support Lovren but if I said he was the best CB in the league is that the appropriate level of praise.
    As for the section in bold, if he didn't do better for fear of backlash then he was never destined for the top. All the best players in the world are motivated intrinsically, they do not, did not need adulation to get to where they did. Lucas is not the worst player in the world but your need to blame everyone and anything for his limitations does him a disservice, he would never echo your assertion that he was afraid of being blamed by fans, and to say that it is a factor makes him sound mentally weak, which I don't think he is.
     
  9. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "┬┐Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    We talking about supporting everyone, or selective support? You seemed to have vested interest in this player, while calling out our former captain. Kinda hard to see how you preach certain things while doing the opposite just the page before. Or was it because he is no longer our player and should not be given the same treatment? Very curious how that works....

    Like I mentioned before, apart from twitter or any other social media platform, in here most people are not as critical towards the player, but more so towards his fans. His fans are taking things to another level, while some even take a swipe at our own player that plays his position just to make Lucas look good. So it isn't Lucas, it's his fans that make his thread went out of control.

    I hope he finds a club that would give him more playing time. Here, he is not going to get it.
     
  10. Quagmire81

    Quagmire81 TIA Regular

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    Seems like never.
     
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  11. Fester

    Fester Well-Known Member Valued Member

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    Hate to say it but in a way he's right (about the bit in bold)! If a player is wearing a Liverpool shirt he's a Liverpool player - you know the club that we all claim to support on here!

    When he's out on the field we shouldn't demand that he does well we should want him to do well. If a player is a weak link in the side for whatever reason, or is simply having a bad day, supporters should be doing everything they can to offer the player encouragement and help him forget about a mistake or series of mistakes and refocus.

    Its the manager's job to decide when to pull the player and when to leave him out of the side not us supporters. He's there to 'manage' we're there to 'support' hence the names.

    I really don't give a flying f#*k if anyone else on here disagrees with me. I've been around long enough and been to enough matches to know which approach works and which approach doesn't. Never ever call a player out for making a mistake or struggling because nobody will know it more than the player himself.

    Get on his back and you guarantee that at best he's not going to improve and in all likelihood at worst he'll go to pieces. Lift him and he may just get his game together. Who benefits from that? The player, the team, the manager, the supporters! Who loses out? The opposition and the whingers and back biters who profess to be supporters but are really just followers.

    Quite frankly some of the personal insults, the vitriol and venom spouted on here towards Liverpool FC players is shameful and BANG out of order. But sadly that is what far too many football followers interpret as 'supporting' a football club these days!
     
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  12. football.tiger

    football.tiger TIA Squad Member

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    Once one realises all the major fan-boys have been banned, it's not hard to see where the issue is...
     
  13. i_still_miss_fowler

    i_still_miss_fowler Well-Known Member Moderator

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    In the real world football is emotive, and Lucas is a paid professional.

    Your a better supporter than me if you don't mutter for fucks sake not again, when Lucas gives a foul at the edge of the box. Supporters get frustrated, angry and in the heat of the moment swear. But I am glad I do, because I don't think I would have the same highs, if I didn't have the lows. The only way I would be different is if I cared more about individual than the game (...though thinking about it even If Lucas was my son, I still would probably say for fucks sake!)

    What you need to be mindful of is forums provide a different dynamic (other people). People lock down on being right. We have seen in the past with Chicagored/Zag/HFT the argument is more important than the outcome. All at some point warned for wanting/being happy about a negative result, because it supported their positive/negative argument about a player or manager.

    There actually is not that much vitriol, has anything in this thread been derisory of Lucas ? not really. He is getting called something between average and legend. Most of the pot shots are actually not aimed at Lucas (decoy runs, fouls for team, marking space) but are simply taking the piss at the lengths of arguments went to.
     
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  14. James H

    James H "I dunno, I just work here"

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    No he's not to be fair if his point was that support could help the player yes I can get on board, but his point is lack of support is why Lucas was never as good as he should have been. How can that be right? Its fans fault that Lucas has limitations? I have said that Lucas does not deserve some abuse he gets, I quite like Lucas, but why look for excuses on why he never became the player he never had the potential to be? I support every player who wears our jersey, and I hope all fulfill their potential but that's not to say I won't criticize them, or that we as fans shouldn't or aren't allowed to. I agree personal attacks have no place here, but rational thought out criticism is and shouldn't be a problem. As i stated already there is two sides to the Lucas debate and one won't see any good and one won't see any bad, neither are right.
     
  15. ptt

    ptt Mane I'm excited for this season

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    I'll only miss him because I'm a crap shot ;-)
     
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  16. Fester

    Fester Well-Known Member Valued Member

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    Thank you for the patronising note about the 'real world'. And I am perfectly attuned to chat forums - having steered clear for a few months I actually found myself back in that 'real world' that you refer to. For a start I was able to recalibrate my own approach from picking up bad habits due to the norm on here to the values that I really hold as a supporter.

    I can understand 'some' of the kneejerk reaction during the match when feelings are running high but I must stress only 'some'. The rest is the behaviour of over-indulged kids in a kintergarten. But once the battle is over and its time to reflect, common sense should return quite quickly. Maybe its my rugby background. Who knows?

    Why do I come on here at all? To interact with supporters who know how to keep things in perspective and know how to support their club! Its very, very difficult with all of the other stuff that goes on and its like picking your way through a minefield at times but I value the interaction with the sensible posters and its usually worth the effort.

    If I step outside the forum rules, fine, I don't set out to do that and appreciate a nudge back onside from a Moderator. But the other stuff I am old enough and experienced enough to work out for myself, thanks. If you are seriously suggesting that players are not subjected to unnecessary personal vitriol and abuse on this forum on a semi-regular basis - which is quite different to occasional constructive criticism - then we will just have to agree to disagree.

    This is my last comment on this topic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2017
  17. football.tiger

    football.tiger TIA Squad Member

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    The point is, how can one get emotive when he's not even playing? It's seven pages based on basically nothing... And I've been here through it all, I don't need a refresh, but someone keeps clicking the button.
     
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  18. KCollins

    KCollins Active Member

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    Good comment. At the game Lucas gets my support 100%..anyone who puts on the jersey should get maximum support. Praise is a different thing entirely. To praise something that is holding us back is something an opposing fan would do ("David Moyes is a football genius").

    When he's on the field he makes us worse, and has done from the moment he took over from Alonso. While Alonso was a hard man to replace, the downgrade was so vast that single change transformed us. An Alonso/Mascherano midfield controlled games, provided a solid defensive and attacking platform, and almost (and should have) won us the league, the one change in the team with Lucas made us a bang average outfit. Regarding your comment about who is to blame, I've mentioned Rafa a few times, he ballsed up with Alonso in what was disgraceful treatment. The single change in the starting XI that transformed us cost Rafa his job.

    Has Lucas ever won a man of the match award? (he possibly has, it's a genuine question). Those that defend Lucas never pinpoint what he does exactly (bar chucking out a useless stat about how many more tackles we have to get through due being weaker because of him).

    What does Lucas Leiva do? I know what he does...slow, predictable/limited often wasteful passing, slows down our play, pedestrian...defensively; physically gets dominated by opposition players (who was it that threw him to the ground?), opposing players with any pace skip past him, can't tackle to save his life he's a free kick waiting to happen. In his whole time at the club (especially as a first teamer) we have been awful bar that one season in 2013-14 when the attack almost carried us to the league. The central midfield has been a major weakness.

    You're watering down the meaning of the word abuse. John Barnes was abused when a banana was thrown at him, players getting sworn at in the street or at the game are being abused, questioning the credentials of a player in a forum is not abuse.

    Plucking out one example of a contribution in a decade of play (perhaps there are a half dozen examples) is indicative of how poor he has been. Benteke got a last minute winner for us at C.Palace, last second equaliser against Chelsea (and he was only here a year)...you can cherry pick examples of rare contributions from other poor players that have worn the red jersey.

    It's miraculous he has been here a decade. Every season hes been linked with a move away, which is telling in itself. He's a dispensable player, and has been from day one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2017
  19. football.tiger

    football.tiger TIA Squad Member

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    Who's this one? It's funny when people bring up Xabi, because most people on here wanted him gone (remember the thread?). @5euros should make a come back to get his remission for said fans...
     
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  20. Fester

    Fester Well-Known Member Valued Member

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    That's not abuse its racism, pure and simple. Seems to me that you are the one who is doing the 'watering down' - and over a far more serious issue at that!
     
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  21. OLDIE

    OLDIE TIA New Signing

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    @KCollins I really have no idea how you can say in all honesty that I have diluted the word abuse.

    Abuse is not consigned to race nor sexual orientation, abuse cannot be merely brushed aside as diluted.

    Lucas has suffered dogs abuse during his 10 years that is generally an accepted fact.

    I would invite you to have another read of what I have previously said in the post you quoted.

    You will note that I point out that on day 1 Lucas contributed to the team by earning a penalty at Goodison. This was in response to a previous post, which suggested that Lucas had been shit from day 1
     
  22. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    You mean barring any post by @KCollins in this thread?

    So now it's Rafa's fault that Lucas has played 300 games for the club?

    He's been awarded 7 MotM awards since his time here according to; https://www.whoscored.com/Players/31451/History/Lucas-Leiva

    Which suggests someone thinks he has had at least 7 good games during that time.

    Of those who regularly defended him on this forum Zag & GrkStav did more than rely on stats and would give detailed arguments of what he was doing on the pitch and why they thought some of the criticism may have been unfounded. They may have gone overboard on some occasions but so was some of the criticism.

    The central midfield has been a weakness but so has much of the rest of the team during the last 7 years. How many years have we had a strong attack in that period? what about good fullbacks? Dominant CBs? or even quality wide players? - Yet according to you, it appears that only Lucas is detrimental to the side.
     
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  23. i_still_miss_fowler

    i_still_miss_fowler Well-Known Member Moderator

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    My post was not even primarily directed at you, and was not meant to be patronising (simply highlighting the difference between ideal and reality). However if you really think my post was patronising, how do you think referring to forum members as over-indulged kids in a kindergarten is perceived ? Or members are followers rather than supporters of this club?

    You described your reason you come to TIA, for myself its to understand different perspectives, look at the game a different way. Like watching MNF or the analysis on MOTD. That's why I offer my perspective. Threads of differing opinion for example discussing if Lucas is a legend IMO are more interesting than a thread wishing him the best of luck finding a new club. I don't post on here to help support the club (Just as Carragher opinion for Sky is not to help Liverpool). I know that my posts have no bearing on the players, manager or club. Like you I support the club attending games.

    Yourself and Football.tiger will view the last several pagers as being pages about nothing. I view them as pages of how others view Lucas and what will his legacy be.
    Has there been any vitriol and venom in this thread. I don't think so. Just differing opinion. Has there been vitriol and venom on this site in the past, yes there has been however those posters have typically ended up banned (or otherwise typically in the heat of the moment).

    Like I said before posters lose objectivity, the debate/argument becomes more important. That for me does not describe this thread, but has characterised the Lucas debate on TIA.
     
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  24. i_still_miss_fowler

    i_still_miss_fowler Well-Known Member Moderator

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    I don't agree with a lot of what KCollins has written, but has he really said anything that bad ?

    He has simply stated that he does not rate Lucas, that he disagrees with the stats, and that he had a detrimental role in the team.

    Its an opinion. Its not simply attacking or insulting Lucas it a perspective he holds.
     
  25. scouseheadross

    scouseheadross Watching from behind the sofa

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    Yes, it was a tough season but Lucas saved us with his modest but witty conversation and tales of cowboy life around the camp fire. We will miss his spirit and would have won today with his more efficient passing and decisive tackling.

    Ok, so now I am just trolling.
     
  26. KCollins

    KCollins Active Member

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    Astounding if true. I've never been more gutted when a player left (Gerrard said the same). Watching Madrid was painful.

    Still abuse (racist abuse). Calling someone bang average on a forum is not abuse.
    I'm not saying he is solely responsible for the demise post Alonso. However Alonso to Lucas, that one change transformed us from a second place team to a bang average one the following season. The unfortunate thing for Lucas is his position is arguably (for me undeniably) the most important in the team. The pivot, the link between defence and attack..the player who takes the ball off the CB and initiates play. Alonso was the controller, the brains of the team...you can't get away with an average replacement in such a key position. We had Rieira on the wing (pretty average player), Aurelio at full back (slightly above average)...you can get away with decent players in those positions, not in the position Lucas plays. It's too influential a position to have a substandard player there...everything goes through there. Would Ray Parlour have been at Arsenal for as long as he was had he been a central midfielder? No chance. A central midfield of Ray Parlour and Gilberto Silva wins nothing...but Parlour out on the wing you can get away with.

    It's not that I disagree with stats, what I'm saying is stats mean nothing in this context. Having to make more tackles is indicative of a team that has less of the ball and is having to get through more defensive work. We controlled games with Alonso, it was comfortable viewing...watching us dictate play. When Lucas came in that changed. Our midfield became bogstandard and keeping hold of the ball a less common sight.

    Barca's tackle stats are much lower than any other team in La Liga...their quality means they dominate possession hence don't have to make tackles, likewise the goalkeeper went games barely touching the ball. If your goalkeeper is having to make more saves every week than any other goalkeeper in the league you should be worried.
     
  27. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "┬┐Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    I've been his biggest fan and advocate.... you talking about yourself there?
     
  28. football.tiger

    football.tiger TIA Squad Member

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    Eh?
     
  29. The Elusive 19th

    The Elusive 19th TIA Youth Team

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    Just like most of the cases, the truth is somewhere in the middle in case of Lucas. He is not world class and he isn't mediocre either - he is average. In around 9 seasons he had atmost 2 seasons where he was better than average - a very good player - yet even in those he wasn't world class. The injury made him an average player again.
    He is what 29 now? Should be his peak career years. Yet Klopp's usage of Lucas as only back up DM and bakcup CB is not without a reason.
    He is a decent servant of the club - but he is no Legend.
    I will wish him success in his next club. And i wish it happens in this window so that we can stop this discussion which keeps going in circles.
     
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  30. Elessar

    Elessar Well-Known Member

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    Maybe you should care about finding out the facts about why Xabi left and not invent made up fantasy stories. Would help you know. He said himself that a big reason to why he left was because of the lower taxes in Spain, so he a big reason to why he left us was because he cared about money more than Liverpool FC. Of course he respect the club but he don't love it more than he love money.

    Rafa tried his very best to stop the deal but he had no say in it. It was our owners Gillett and Hicks that decided to sell him, not Rafa. In the end Xabi left because he wanted a move to Real and because he would earn more money.

    That isn't a made up fantasy story like the one you tell everyone.
     

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