The Owners

Discussion in 'The Albert - LFC Talk' started by liveforthereds, Nov 12, 2012.

  1. Kanonkop

    Kanonkop Well-Known Member

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    To me, there are essentially two phases to FSG. Phase 1 years 1-6 - Largely a failure. Phase 2 - Summer 2016 onwards. Hopefully a very different story and one that actually looks sensible now as opposed to Phase 1. I am now relatively happy that we have top quality people in the right positions to run the club - both in a sporting and commercial sense.
     
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  2. Red Armada

    Red Armada TIA Regular

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    No, Liverpool Football Club has given you that.

    You are associating the excitement of following LFC not with the club itself, but with the owners.
     
  3. steveee

    steveee TIA Reserve Team

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    who do you compare with when using your grading scale?

    for me.. there is only 2 clubs that have owners that I would take in a heartbeat over our current ones in the league.. and that is city and chelsea.

    there is no way I am taking the Glazer's who have made United the most in debt club in the world at the moment or Stan Kroenke who is probably one of the worst owners in all of sports...

    so given that I rate FSG as the 3rd best owners in the league currently.. I can deal with it I suppose... I say be grateful for what we have.. as it can be much worst.

    I think those of you thinking we can simply have better owners just because you think that... yeah we probably can.. maybe ...but I also think they you are not realistic and grateful because in my opinion only 2 clubs like I said in the league have clearly better owners than us.

    I have no hatred or love for the owners...
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2017 at 6:01 PM
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  4. Chewbazza

    Chewbazza True Believer

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    I don't see the necessity of giving them a rating at this point.

    We seem to be at a watershed moment where a successful summer, another top 4 finish and we could be really close to where we need to be.

    Or we could mess it all up and finish 8th again. The point being that it's never been clear if the problems are the recruitment, the manager, the TC, the management infrastructure etc.

    Right now everything is in place, and if we can't continue the progression and 'succeed' with Klopp, then it may well be down to the owners.

    Just don't see the need or reason for giving them 4/10 when nobody knows if we could end the summer with VVD, Salah, Keita and Mbappe and then go onto win four trophies.

    Hugely unlikely I know, but it would be hard to justify 4/10 if it did happen, even though they are the same owners making the same decisions.

    I just think it's a huge moment for the club, and making judgements before it's all played out is unwise.
     
  5. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Eru

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    People going on about trophies, but we've been to finals and the players have bottled it on more than one occasion. Don't see how that is FSGs fault, they are not blameless or without fault but a huge part of the criticism is lack of trophies yet we've been in many finals and failed to deliver.

    Another is the ARE, the owners are clearly taking their time as they don't want to sadle the club with debt and have people missed the £50mil investment into a state of the art academy and training facility? They promised they would make Liverpool live within its means, we are getting to the point of them needing more tangible achievements but the club was rotten throughout when they took over, there has been many mistakes on the way but we have a world class manager, we are in the CL and the transfer window is not fully open in a summer of promise. Let's see what happens.
     
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  6. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    My view too.... the lesser they are involved hands-on with club daily running, the better. All they gotta do is hire the right group of people, very competent group, none of those "yes" man type, and let those guys go do their job. Provide financial backing and that's all they should be doing. Meddle into the running of the club and giving them rating are something that was pretty much unheard of back in those good years that I could remember. We don't even give that much attention about what Moores are doing for the club, other than provide financing to the club.
     
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  7. EdWood

    EdWood TIA Youth Team

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    All well and good but with such thrift we will be circling the drain for years to come unless Kloppo can do more with less, and compared to the oligarchs and manure, a lot less. How do the owners expect him to compete when we're being outspent 2 to 1 by the very clubs who are in our way? Or perhaps they don't and are content as long as the fans' cash keeps flowing in?

    Colour me cynical but I believe that FSG could have spent a lot more than they have done on the squad over the years and still kept a healthy balance sheet - if they'd had the desire to do so. Corporate restructuring (I think that's the correct terminology) would achieve this. Aren't they supposed to be good at that sort of thing?
     
  8. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Eru

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    Sorry what is Spurs' wage bill?

    I'd much rather these owners who named the stand after Kenny, rather than a billionaire who got their wealth through corruption of slavery and would rename anything in a dodgy attempt to bypass FFP.
     
  9. EdWood

    EdWood TIA Youth Team

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    Not a patch on that of the Red Sox I'd wager.
     
  10. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Eru

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    What does the Red Sox have to do with Liverpool? Clutching at straws here.
     
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  11. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Who might that be?
     
  12. Arminius

    Arminius FSG PR plant Moderator

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    Spurs revenue is 196M/year, their wages are just over 100M.
    Red Sox revenue is 338M, payroll is 154M - profit was 60M
    LFC revenue is 301M, payroll is 152M, operating loss of 20M

    All numbers in pounds at current exchange, using 2016 reported numbers,

    I have no idea what sort of corporate restructuring you think would achieve the ability to spend more. Corporate restructuring is usually shorthand for screwing over creditors (we don't have many), suppliers (mostly players), and taking advantage of any pricing power (the Main Stand ticket increase was largely walked back), while piling a ton of long-term debt on the balance sheet.
     
  13. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Depends on the people who owns the business I would say. Having long term inter-co debt isn't a bad thing though, especially when you do pay them gradually while also taking more loans in the subsequent year or so. It helps with tax relief. Unless dividends from profit is what the owners are after, that is not such a bad thing. I see Liverpool FC as a social enterprise, hence the comment by the way.
     
  14. Arminius

    Arminius FSG PR plant Moderator

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    Sure, but zero interest inter-company debt is basically free money - not exactly corporate restructuring. Is free money a good thing? Absolutely, just ask Citeh. But if that is the standard, not even Abramovich meets it.
     
  15. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Can always book it as minimal interest debt, write it off after a few years by capitalising it as shares and issue it to yourself. Don't think that's illegal under a private entity. Publicly traded companies will have more restrictions in doing so. I may need @Lowton_Red to verify this since I don't own majority share of aUK based company so far. But from what I know through friends who also own football clubs, they do that quite a fair bit.
     
  16. Arminius

    Arminius FSG PR plant Moderator

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    Yes - they probably could. or just put the capital in as equity in the first place, without regard to financial returns. As I said, not even Abramovich has done that. If the standard by which owners are judged is only City's are worth anything but being despised, not a particularly useful standard.
     
  17. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Yes not recently, but he did that once by writing off half a billion of debt if I am not mistaken. And yes my whole point is to look at what the intent of the owners. Like I said before if they are after profit, I get it, I don't like it and I don't support it, but I get it. Which is why it is hard for me to keep banging on them being the "best" and should count our lucky stars we don't have Hicks and Gillett anymore and all that don't bode well with me. Not because I am "anti" this and that, just that I look at the club as social enterprise, not a profit making machine, since I am a football fan.

    I would not call myself a great owner either if I own a football club. Not going to be a short term crook like those two idiots, but not going to be that charitable guy I want FSG to be. Football or sports industry for me is for those who had way too much money for themselves and in many generations to come from their cash cow core businesses, and they needed to have something else to share their success with the world.
     
  18. Arminius

    Arminius FSG PR plant Moderator

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    You are in fact mistaken - he moved 500M or so out of Chelsea FC and into the holding company that controls Chelsea FC (Fordstam Limited) for him, just before the deadline for FFP reporting. So Chelsea FC does not have 500M of debt that it did, but Abramovich has not actually written off either. Abramovich can call it on 18 month's notice, and the debt is secured against the club, and critically, club revenues. He had actually already piled 500M of debt into Fordstam. Technically, Chelsea has a very low debt, but for all practical purposes it would be the same as if FSG piled 1B of debt onto LFC by way of their UK holding company.

    For me, they are not the transformational owners I had hoped - I now suspect they got extraordinarily lucky with the Red Sox as much as anything, but seem to be on the right track right now. There is certainly nothing wrong with criticizing their many mistakes - but the Red Sox argument is particularly tired. It amounts to saying that FSG should be taking profits from the Red Sox and funneling them into LFC.

    There is so much money flowing around football, especially the PL, that I find it maddening that fans think that anyone should be funneling money into clubs to essentially cover operating expenses - capital improvements like stadia by all means, but short term spending for success when the numbers in question are already ludicrous moves beyond the absurd. It is hard for me not to smell hints of the one-factory town grandee and the legacy of English class culture in the expectations of upper class largesse and generosity to build winning teams.
     
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  19. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    @Arminius whether it is from Red Sox or other means of business, like I said, I see this as a social enterprise. My friends who own football clubs thought they could profit from those large chunks moving about football industry or at the very least make the club self sustainable and still be competitive. They were caught with their pants down, mainly because players, agents and other clubs selling players raised the bar as soon as there are more money poured into the league. I am always in the view of football club owners would own the club because they have certain affinity towards the club they own or at the very least the sport, all they wanted to do is to have that feel good factor rather than making me rich plan. So in reality we don't have such owners and I get that, therefore I am not going to sit here barking them to become one.
     
  20. Red_Jedi

    Red_Jedi Member

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    I meant closest to winning the league.

    The closest we ever came to winning the league has been under FSG. The other runs we had under Rafa and Houllier were much weaker runs - though we did end in 2nd place.

    Every year I think we will win the league, but I now think we could finally be setting ourselves up for sustained challenges not just for a one off season, but for several seasons... Its the first time I've felt like this for such a long time.

    And I think FSG have a got a major part to do with that - they are the ones who've changed managers, and now got Klopp in. They've expanded our stadium, and guess what we now are competing with some top end players (that we haven't really done since FSG took over), got new training facilities in the pipeline, and looks like more to come.

    Chelsea and Spurs could easily be weaker next season (Chelsea have europe, and Spurs don't have a "home"), City will be under close scrutiny and pressure. Same with Arsenal. I think with just a couple of quality additions, we could be right in the mix - and get a good run in Europe.
     
  21. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    That's not true is it? If we were to end up with the same amount of points Rafa collected in his run we would have won the league in that season you mentioned. Not to mention us having to play and beat Real Madrid in two legs in the process.
     
  22. Red_Jedi

    Red_Jedi Member

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    It depends how you want to "measure" it - I meant that in the Rodgers season, we were in the mix with 2 games to go, and I think even a minute mathematical chance of winning it in the last game..... I'm talking about the League.

    Not sure what Real Madrid have to do with it.
     
  23. Red_Jedi

    Red_Jedi Member

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    Not sure how many owners are like this anymore?

    Of the Top 6 or 8 teams in the league, I can only think of Tottenham with Daniel Levy as a Spurs fan since childhood and some links to the north london area. None of the others have any local connection.

    Its a shame, but football ownership has changed drastically in the last 20 years - unfortunately they are all seen as assets that are appreciating.
     
  24. redbj

    redbj hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road

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    I liked this post,,the only thing I will say about it though, I is that they have been here for seven years now, and we still have this 'the juries out' vibe going on.

    However well grounded that is, it also tells its own story.
     
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  25. Semmy

    Semmy walk on...walk...on...

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    That's the romantic in you.

    FSG are not great owners as they aren't (yet) football fans. Although I did watch an interview with Werner recently about his relationship with the club and he seemed quite enamored with it.

    But they are businessmen first, and as a realist I don't see them dumping personal funds into the club just to compete at the highest eschilon. Believe the club will grow as they reinvest more of the clubs profits back into building it at a youth level and developing their own superstars instead of buying them from continental teams at over-inflated prices or taking advantage of other team's inefficiencies (i.e. Coutinho, Sturridge, and now Solanke all stagnating at other clubs).

    All of this I am okay with, as I am raising a future LFC fan who is 2-1/2yo and I have patience as I will be following the club for another 30-40 years.
     
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  26. LFC-Orlando

    LFC-Orlando TIA First Team

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    Yeah, we need to shut up and be thankful for our saviors. We ought to be thankful and accept things cause the grass isn't greener elsewhere, etc, etc.

    7 years is just a honey moon and we need to wait for about 15 years before we can voice concerns if we're not achieving the ultimate goal and purpose of the football club - to win trophies.

    I kinda miss the days that our owners were the tyrants, and our top manager was managing to bring here world class players, with very little money. Yes, I said it. I miss them days. And while we didn't win the league, we were in the top 3 of the UEFA coefficient 3-4 years in a row, but we had Torres, Javier, and managed to hold onto Stevie and other world class players.

    What I don't get is how sports owners with a lot of experience in baseball, don't acquire at least 1 ready-made super star/game changer, like they've done for the Redsox.

    Oh, wait, I hear rumors about a certain striker from Dortmund....I'll hold my breath.
     
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  27. Red_Jedi

    Red_Jedi Member

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    The owners put the structure in place to have a great manager and players - and hence the cup finals and league challenges.

    I'll always be a red, through thick and thin - but nothing beats the excitement of winning.... and being excited for the future. The owners have an absolutely integral role to provide that.
     
  28. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    Firstly measure of stronger against weaker needs to be measured by points won. If you are up against an even stronger opponent 86 points won't win you the league does not make your runs weaker. So saying Rata's runs are weaker in comparison is not accurate now is it? Secondly, Real Madrid, Champs league run has everything to do with it. We don't have anything else other than the league to contend. So for us to push ourselves against the best of Europe and then amassed the highest point tally we've ever had is not a weaker run. It is a stronger run considering what we had to contend with. You are measure closeness not strength, I am measuring strength not closeness. The closest we got is 2013/14, but stronger runs definitely falls on 2008/09.

    @Semmy football without romance is just entertainment. If that's what you look for it's fine with me.
     
  29. ubermick

    ubermick Willing to drive Moreno to the airport Admin

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    Jesus fucking Christ, you're like a broken fucking record.

    I mean fucking hell, I like a moan as much as the next fan, but is there NOTHING about this club that brings you any fucking contentment?
     
  30. LFC-Orlando

    LFC-Orlando TIA First Team

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    Yes, owners with ambition and a demonstrable interest to win would accompany our club values well.

    I can see the point that we dramatically improved, season to season. But it's tiring, letting every golden chance go for relatively small additional investment, that could have brought us past the finish line. Happened so often, and if they don't surprise us this time, it's more likely, that we'll lose 1-2 of our best, before we acquire more missing pieces.

    I still won't miss a game and this time I'll catch 2-3 at Anfield. So, I'll still enjoy every moment of seeing our team and our beloved manager, more than anything.

    But who wouldn't like a bit more Linda-like ambition from the gents who run the show?
     

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