The Unreliable Rumours Thread

Discussion in 'Rumour Mill - Transfer Talk' started by Nikola, Jun 30, 2015.

  1. Anfield rd Dreamer

    Anfield rd Dreamer Well-Known Member

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    Because having a 21 man or a 25 man senior squad provides different levels of cover and options if there is an injury crisis. I'm all for giving academy graduates chances as often as possible but you don't want to use them in difficult situations they aren't ready for yet either.

    We can't buy players to fill those 4 club developed slots (unless we buy back the likes of Suso) so we either use or lose those squad places. How much would we really be able to sell those players for? How much would we save in wages? Do we really need that money? Even if they only sit the bench a couple of times it might be worth more than we can sell them for financially. Might be anyway. Decision to be made by Klopp obviously. But Flanagan has done well in the past and Wisdom seems to be doing well on loan. They're better than having an empty place on the squad list at least in my eyes. If there are kids ready to be used from the academy instead then fine.
     
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  2. Makati Red

    Makati Red Well-Known Member

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    My point is Klopp would never ever use them with the possible exception of a dead game or tie so if thats the case what is the point having them in the squad.
     
  3. blaze

    blaze Faith.

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    If the players aren't ready to play games for us right now, how will they ever be ready if all just sit onthe bench? You ideally want academy graduates constantly on the brink of first team football and pushing first team members for a spot and be ready to deputise in the event of injury. Like Karius or Joe Gomez before his injury. At the very least they should have the potential to eventually play for the first team as in the case of Woodburn. But if Kevin Stewart at his age is not playing is not playing first team football, or at least a fist choice back up, we are ruining his career. Sure we need to look after ourselves first, but if Stewart/Grujic can not get games when 2-3 midfielders are injured, then they are just backups for the sake of it. It is not about the money either. The wages or fees involved may be negligible but as a footballer, their careers are getting stalled and as a club our second string players aren't giving enough competition to our first team players. Both of us lose in this way. We can always make up numbers to fill the squad. There are enough academy payers to pad the numbers, we don't have to stall a players career to make up numbers.
     
  4. rickardinho1

    rickardinho1 Active Member

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    Agree. Filling spots 22-25 just for the sake of it with players like Wisdom, Flanagan, etc seems pointless.

    The aim with those 4 squad places should be to have players like Woodburn, Trent, Ejaria, Gomez, etc filling those spots long-term to allow more freedom in planning for the first 17 squad roles.
     
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  5. Anfield rd Dreamer

    Anfield rd Dreamer Well-Known Member

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    All those young players are on our unlimited list B anyway. The 4+ club developed senior spots either get used or don't. You use them or lose them.

    It's basically a question of what is better for the football team over the course of a season.

    Either way we have a full squad and full academy to choose from. Sell them to raise a minimal amount of transfer fees and lower wages paid by getting rid of them or a couple of extra senior players in Flanagan/Wisdom etc to train, show passion for the club and be used in emergency situations. We won't always have an appropriate young prospect ready for that challenge.

    If the club really need that last million or two to complete a deal or to free up some room on wages to not get in trouble with FFP or something then fine. But can't see these players raising significant funds or freeing up a lot of wages. If they stay they won't be in any body's way and won't do us any harm. They'd be a plan C or D for if A or B has gone wrong basically.
     
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  6. redbj

    redbj crowd fund for you to shut up give me the details

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    Yes, but they don't go quietly into the night all the time.

    A massive squad has its own implications regarding morale.
     
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  7. lfc.eddie

    lfc.eddie "¿Plata... O Plomo?" Valued Member

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    All the talks about that Adama fella, I am glad we didn't go out and get him. Fucker seems lazy as hell. Whole team runs ragged, he strolled around the pitch. Crap character.
     
  8. rickardinho1

    rickardinho1 Active Member

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    He's just another Balotelli-type. All the talent in the world, zero game intelligence or output
     
  9. NickF

    NickF Well-Known Member

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    He can just dribble that is it
     
  10. rickardinho1

    rickardinho1 Active Member

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    Sell:

    Sturridge £20m
    Moreno £8m
    Stewart £10m
    Lucas (free)
    Randall £1m

    Bogdan £0.5m
    Sakho £20m
    Wisdom £2m
    Flanagan £2m
    Markovic £15m
    + whatever the club can get for Dunn, Brannagan, Awoniyi

    (Loan out: Ward, Fulton, Allan, Chirivella, Kent, Ojo, Ejaria)

    That fetches around £75-80m

    Buy:

    Van Dijk £45m
    Sessegnon £15m
    Keita £30m
    Brandt £25m
    Ox £20m
    Total £135m

    Net spend £60m.

    --------------- Mignolet
    ----------------- Karius
    Clyne -- Matip ---- Van Dijk --- Milner
    Trent --- Lovren --- Klavan -- Sessegnon
    ----------- Gomez

    ---------------- Henderson
    ------------------ Can
    ------- Keita ------------- Lallana
    ------ Wijnaldum -------- Grujic

    Mané ----------------------------- Coutinho
    Ox --------------------------------- Brandt
    Wilson --------------------------- Woodburn
    ----------------- Firmino
    ------------------ Origi
    ------------------ Ings*

    *Might even be worth replacing Ings with another good young striker.

    More than any previous years, it's most certainly about quality rather than quantity now. Furthermore, as the squad won't need any big overhauling in future summers (due to the good age profile and state of the squad), this is certainly the summer to go big on some key targets - even if it means overpaying slightly to get it right long-term - particularly with regards to a top CB who could fix our leaky defense once and for all.

    Last summer Klopp brought in Karius, Matip, Wijnaldum, Mané, and Klavan, and a similar haul (2-3 starters and a couple of good young squad players) would be a very solid transfer window.
     
  11. Scorchio

    Scorchio Well-Known Member

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    Buy:

    Van Dijk £45m : Will have rich clubs chasing him in the summer. I can see the price being inflated beyond sanity. Klopp has never before spent heavily on a defender. Unlikely to happen.

    Sessegnon £15m: Fulham have already said that he's going nowhere this summer. In addition, they don't want to do business with us. Unlikely to happen.

    Keita £30m: RBL don't want to sell, don't have to sell, and have said that the player won't be leaving this summer. Unlikely to happen.

    Brandt £25m: The only one that I can see happening. However, I think he's the wrong choice. He just doesn't provide enough of a cutting edge in attack.

    Ox £20: In my opinion, it's just paper talk and we're the usual suspects. He's a player who spends too much time on the treatment table to ever be a good fit with us. I believe that Klopp will be looking for durable players, not just ability and energy. Another one that's unlikely to happen.
     
  12. rickardinho1

    rickardinho1 Active Member

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    We've as good a chance as anyone to sign Van Dijk. He'll know that Liverpool is a club on the up that frequently beats the top clubs. Klopp may not have spent that much before on anyone, but he's never had the transfer budget he has now, and it would be silly to not buy a top class CB if he is available and the club can afford it.

    Fulham are in a push for promotion so it's only natural that the manager would make a statement like that. Sessegnon hasn't even signed a professional contract with them yet so he could very well sign a professional contract with another club (us) and it would be out of Fulham's hands beyond receiving compensation for him in a tribunal.

    Agree that Keita is unlikely, and he'll end up being this years Dahoud... with persistent rumours and links to him all summer but eventually nothing happening. Whatever the case, it's highly likely that Klopp will want to sign at least one mobile midfielder, whether it is him, James Rodriguez, or someone totally under the radar like Wijnaldum or Mané were.

    Regarding Brandt I tend to agree - In principle I'd feel more comfortable if we brought in a winger who had more of an output in terms of goals; however Brandt does strike me as being someone like De Bruyne who will make those around him better and rack up tons of assists which would also be very welcome. You can't only have a team of Mané's, you need those players like Coutinho who can pick the lock and thread the ball through to others, and in Coutinho's absences we very much lack that playmaker type in the team so Brandt would be a useful addition in that sense.

    Oxlade-Chamberlain does sound like it could be agents making noise to put pressure on Arsenal in contract negotiations. It's a classic trick and often happens in the weeks before a player signs a new deal. That said, it makes sense on many levels, though I have a suspicion that Klopp will be aiming for someone with more of a track record in terms of goals and assists.

    As you say, it's highly unlikely that we'll sign all of these players; however, I'd be surprised if the actual transfers made deviate much from the positions here. It's clear that we need a top CB, a CM, AM, winger, and a LB (at least as an understudy to Milner), so the rumoured transfers make sense, at least in terms of profile and positions.
     
  13. Scorchio

    Scorchio Well-Known Member

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    Dortmund made some big signings under Klopp, but never on defenders. Last summer, we made some big signings under Klopp, but not on defenders. He seems to me the type who isn't afraid to spend big money, but he'll only spend it on attacking players. That's what the form guide indicates.

    Like you, I'd love to see us get Van Dijk, or any other top quality centre back, but in truth, I don't think we'll sign one. Lovren has just signed a new contract, we won't dump Klavan after one season, and Gomez looks ready as a back up option. Along with Matip, I think Klopp will be content with this quartet, maybe looking at a cheap option who can cover a number of positions.

    On the subject of Sessegnon, there's a number of factors which could prevent this from happening. Rumour has it that he's already agreed a contract with Fulham which he'll be signing next month. If he doesn't, Chelsea and Arsenal are waiting to sign him, and like many, I can see him wanting to stay in the capital. I can also see both of these clubs offering silly money that we won't match. Add to this our poor relationship with Fulham, and it makes this transfer very difficult.

    The reason why I consider Brandt a poor fit is because our only real goalscoring attacker is the man he's most likely to replace; Mane. If we have an attacking trio of Firmino, Coutinho, and Brandt, then we have no natural goalscorers. For me, we need another option like Mane, someone fast, direct, and able to get get into double figures every season. Brandts output in the Bundesliga isn't too impressive, and he's unlikely to find it any easier in the Premier League. Good player, just a poor fit.
     
  14. rickardinho1

    rickardinho1 Active Member

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    Good points. :-)

    Van Dijk
    I do agree that it is more likely that we sign some other CB who is more affordable than Van Dijk. The team has a very strong record with Matip and Lovren starting together (13 games, 10 conceded, no losses), but the problem has come when either or both of them has been out, as their replacements this season were Klavan and Lucas.

    Gomez could very well play a more prominent role, but at the very least we do need to bring in one more CB to ensure that we're not depending on Lucas at CB again given that we'll also have European games next season.

    It wouldn't take much to upgrade on Lucas/Klavan, but it'll be interesting to see how ambitious the club wants to be - whether they'll live up to FSG's word that the club can compete with anyone for the very best, or if Klopp will be satisfied with signing someone to simply rotate with Lovren for instance (someone like Michael Keane for instance - who actually wouldn't be a bad signing, but just quite underwhelming compared to Van Dijk).

    Sessegnon
    The bottom line is that it will come down to the player himself. If he wants to join Liverpool then there are probably ways he and his agent can make that happen, particularly as he hasn't signed a contract yet. It is a little bit reassuring that the club managed to sign highly-rated Gomez from Charlton (despite rumoured interest from Arsenal and Dortmund), so hopefully they'll manage to pull this one off as well.

    Brandt
    Last season as a 19 year old Brandt scored 9 goals at a rate of 1 goal per 180mins (1 in 2), which is pretty excellent for that age. This season he's got 3 goals and 9 assists. These numbers are actually quite comparably to Coutinho or De Bruyne at about the same age.

    That said, I think when it comes to fit you might be right, as it would be ideal to have a player who would contribute more in goals. However, based on the fact that we were apparently interested in Draxler it would seem as if Klopp wants to sign a playmaker in the Coutinho mould, and for all we know he could also be targeting another striker/goalscoring winger as well.

    If Sturridge is sold and Ings is effectively written off, then we would most certainly need another attacker, which could be someone who could operate out wide as well, and which would leave the attack like this:

    Mané ----------------- Coutinho
    ST/RW --------------- Brandt
    ----------- Firmino
    ------------ Origi

    This sort of setup would provide excellent depth in terms of options, and signing Brandt would also ensure that we had a playmaker in attack if Coutinho was injured - and one who is the right age profile to not necessarily be a starter all the time, but certainly good enough to be in the First XI.

    You can have all the scorers you want, but if you don't have anyone to open a defense up with a neat pass or dribble (like Coutinho) then it can often times become quite static against park-the-bus sides. With that in mind, I think Brandt would make a lot of sense as a signing, but in an ideal world it would be a signing that would be complemented by another attacking signing.

    Also, if Sessegnon is signed we'd also have a legitimate goal scoring threat from LB to overlap with Coutinho/Brandt, which would add another dimension to the attack.

    We never sign all the players we are linked with, but the noise from journalists like Pearce, Joyce, Barrett, Reddy, etc seems to be that we will be signing a CB, LB, CM, AM, and RW/ST, and whoever comes in I have no doubt they will be quality players that make logical sense on paper, just as all the moves made since Klopp has come in have done for the most part (eg. Karius, Matip, Wijnaldum, Mané, Klavan, Grujic).
     
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  15. legalalien

    legalalien The Tweetherder

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    Perhaps you missed the bit about "if there is an injury crisis".
     
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  16. Makati Red

    Makati Red Well-Known Member

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    not sure he would even use them then he would prefer to play the players who had played at the weekend with all the issues that would bring. He could have played Stewart and others over Christmas but chose not to.

    Stewart is also way ahead of the players we mention
     
  17. Anfield rd Dreamer

    Anfield rd Dreamer Well-Known Member

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    Yet again I was talking injury crisis. The kind were we have had 3/4 injured CBS at same time before. Facing 2 games a week or even 3 in that situation could be challenging. In that situation I'd feel more comfortable with Wisdom (who is doing OK at CB on loan and got a lot of prem experience as a full back at least) sitting on the bench to call as needed. The other option would be throwing an academy CB on the bench regardless of any decisions made on where he is in his development and whether he is ready.
     
  18. Red&War

    Red&War Well-Known Member

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    I would be willing to bet my left nut that we will sign a CB this summer. Not just due to the fact that, bar Matip, our CB's aren't worth the Vinyl their names are printed with. But owing to the fact that every Liverpool connected journo going has outright stated that we are looking to bring in a top quality CB.

    Secondly, Brandts influence on goals (Assists, Goals) is pretty good and he is very unlikely to replace Mane who has been our best player this season. Hopefully, we will be competing in more comps next year so Brant would be rotating in and out of the team as form and injuries dictate, he won't be guaranteed a starting place he will have to earn it.
     
  19. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    Lots of people keep poiinting to what he did at Dortmund and acting like it's a perfect roadmap for what he will do here, and talk down any deviation from that because "that's not what he did at Dortmund." I think that is very misguided.

    Yes, most of their high profile purchases were forwards or attacking players, but that's because those were the positions he needed to fill because the p[layers he already had kept getting poached by richer sides.

    No he didnt spend 50 million on one player, but that was over 10 years ago, at a different club and in a different league.
     
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  20. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Eru

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    Just like Rodgers spent fuck all at Swansea, and once given the keys to the pot he splurged like a fat kid in a candy store.
     
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  21. Nikola

    Nikola Optimist with a bit of experience. Admin

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    True that, and I think he recalibrated his focus, so to speak, after seemingly underestimating the difficulty of the league/overestimating the strength of his squad. With him, you feel that he's been genuinely learning about dealing with Premier League this whole time, about how to improve the squad, how to deal with the absence of winter break and four competitions in a season. One thing I wonder about is if he still feels what he said about players who refused to join because of lack of Champions League football. Even with it, pulling off transfers like Van Dijk and Keita seems so difficult, let alone without it.

    As a side note, I hope that comment about Pogba won't come back to bite him on the arse like Rodgers' comments about Tottenham. The part about not wanting to spend big on one player because he might get injured and so on. That's precisely what might happen with Van Dijk (he is quoted to be the most expensive defender of all time at 50 million pounds if I'm not mistaken) should Klopp sign him.
     
  22. Anfield rd Dreamer

    Anfield rd Dreamer Well-Known Member

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    Things people forget when talking like that;

    1. He had a director of football in charge of things there and it wasn't solely his decision.

    2. It wasn't a club that had that kind of money to spend whether he wanted to or not.

    3. Very early on he brought in Hummels and Subotic. At the clubs height under him it was maybe the equivalent of Van Dijk and Matip level or better and after that he never needed to bring in starting CBs. He might have spent more on a CB if he'd needed a starter if one of those two was lost to him.

    4. Despite that Sokratis and then Ginter appear to be the most expensive CBS the club signed in its history (until a deal in place for this coming summer for Toprak at least). Both were signed by Klopp for what was big money to Dortmund at that time even though he had 2 top class starters.

    5. At Liverpool he has already brought in two 25 million or more signings in one window which he could never do there.

    6. Dortmund only had to compete with one top team in their league.

    7. Dortmund still spent what they were able to spend. If we do that we will obviously out spend them.
     
  23. Kopstar

    Kopstar ★★★★★ Valued Member

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    The thing about the players we have that satisfy the criteria of club-trained but are too old for the B list (Flanagan, Wisdom, Randall etc) is that they are so below the quality needed in a senior player that Klopp is far more likely to field a youngster or even change the system entirely before even considering playing them. He'd almost certainly prefer to play a better player out of position than field any of Randall, Flanagan or Wisdom. At CB, for example, if we had 3 of Gomez, Lovren, Matip, Klavan/new CB missing he'd look to either Can or Phillips before Wisdom. Randall's only getting games for the U23s because Flanagan's on loan and although Flanagan is ostensibly our 3rd choice left back (behind Clyne and TAA) I reckon that Klopp would play Gomez or Henderson there or even change to a back 3 rather than choose Flanagan let alone Randall.

    Clubs rarely name a full 25-man senior squad for European competition and the amount of players we can bring in via the B list is plenty big enough to supplement or even augment those players that have to be on the A list.

    The only thing we need to be conscious of is ensuring that there's space on the A list given that every new signing, regardless of age, needs to fit into that initial 17+4 if we want to be able to use them in Europe.
     
  24. Red&War

    Red&War Well-Known Member

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    I Agree with all of that apart from we now have sporting director, which is the same thing from what I gather :-). However this might end up working in our favour as he might push Klopp to look for more proven talent than he might initially be comfortable pursuing. The difference is, however, I think Michael Edwards might be there to support Klopp rather than buying the players and giving them too klopp.
     
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  25. tabbyanne

    tabbyanne New Member

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    it amazes me people think we will get 10 million for Stewart and then say we shouldn't pay over 15 for ox lol... If we get 4 for Stewart i'd be over the moon. Klopp is a great manager but he isn't a magician.
     
  26. Makati Red

    Makati Red Well-Known Member

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    Not completely true look at the fee paid for MK and Reus and the years they were paid, clearly equivalent to fees paid last summer if you add player price inflation into the mix

    However no one doubts he will get more money to spend at LFC

    The major difference here is were much less likely to lose all our best players to Bayern Munich or other clubs once there part of the team. The only possible ones we could lose are South American players to Real or Barca and that will have nothing to do with money if they go there, just like Mascher
     
  27. Scorchio

    Scorchio Well-Known Member

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    And those centre backs who's names aren't worth the vinyl they're printed on include Lovren, whom we've just given a fat new contract to, simply to keep the bench warm, while we go out and blow 50 million on a replacement?

    Those same journalists who, between them, predicted exactly zero of last year's summer signings. Of course, they told us that we were getting everyone from Thibaut Courtois to Hatem Ben Arfa, when in fact, not one of them correctly predicted any of the players we did sign.

    Every season follows the same pattern. Once February is out of the way, we start getting linked with every has been, never was, or never will be. If a player we scouted in 1962 is finally being given a free transfer in the summer, then every ITK and every journalist will swear blind that we're signing them. And every summer, our fans continue to ignore what the manager has previously said and done, continue to ignore their own common sense, and they choose to believe 'experts' who haven't yet made one single correct prediction.

    On the subject of Brandt, I'll explain again why I believe he would be a poor fit. At present, our starting attack consists of Firmino, Coutinho, and Mane. Of these, Mane is our top scorer, and our most influential attacker. The stats back this up. With Mane in the team, we score at an average of 2.34 goals per league game. Without him, we score at an average of 1.14 goals per league game. We already create sufficient chances. What we lack is someone who can both put the ball in the net, and offer sufficient threat to keep the opposition on the back foot. Mane provides us with this, but he is the only one who does. Not Firmino, not Coutinho, not Origi.

    When Mane is not available, we need someone who can step into his position and offer us the same threat that he does. When we're a goal down, we need someone who can come on and actually have a chance of scoring a goal. What we don't need is yet another player to create a chance, when we don't have anyone capable of sticking the ball in the net on a regular basis. With the best will in the world, Brandt is not a goalscorer. He doesn't provide a cutting edge, and you won't get double figures out of him. All signing him would achieve is to give us what we already have in abundance, not what we actually need.
     
  28. rickardinho1

    rickardinho1 Active Member

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    Regarding CB's, the problem this season hasn't really been the Matip-Lovren partnership, which has only conceded 10 in 13 games (none of which were losses). The issue has been the massive drop-off in CB quality when either or both of them has been injured, so signing a good CB is paramount in order to improve next season, particularly with the additional European fixtures.

    This season having Matip, Lovren, Klavan, and Lucas (plus Gomez injured most of the season) has been one CB short, and we'd certainly get exposed in that department again with midweek CL football unless we signed another first team CB (eg. Van Dijk) to have the depth like this:

    Matip --- Van Dijk
    Gomez - Lovren
    Klavan/Lucas

    As for Brandt, there's absolutely no reason why signing him would mean that we wouldn't ALSO sign a more natural goalscorer... As it stands, we have neither a natural playmaker as cover for Coutinho, nor cover on the wing for Mané... so it would make logical sense to buy two players who cover EACH of those needs.

    Brandt would be signed with a view of being a playmaker covering for Coutinho, and someone like Timo Werner could be signed to cover for Mané while also offering a different option up front.

    In Firmino we have a guy who presses from the front excellently; in Origi we have someone who can hold the ball up against the West Brom's and Stoke's, and in Werner we would have a very fast poacher for counter-attacks and to come off the bench and be lively in the box when we need a goal late in games.

    In that context, signing Brandt would make perfect sense, as we'd solve the issue of having no natural cover for Coutinho, while also adding goals to the team in the form of a winger/striker like Werner.

    Mané ------------------- Coutinho
    Werner ---------------- Brandt
    ------------ Firmino
    ------------- Origi
     
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  29. Anfield rd Dreamer

    Anfield rd Dreamer Well-Known Member

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    You missed the point I made about two such signings in one transfer window. Clearly.
     
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  30. Scorchio

    Scorchio Well-Known Member

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    When FSG first came into this club, they made it quite clear that they were not averse to paying big transfer fees or wages, but what they had to have was value. They further explained that they did not want money sitting on the bench. To back this up, we subsequently rid ourselves of all of the high earners at the club who either weren't first team picks, or those high earners in the first team who weren't deemed as giving value.

    As a result, we cut fringe players such as Cole, Konchesky, Kyrgiakos, Poulson, Jovanovic, and Aquilani from the squad, and didn't replace them. Long standing regulars such as Reina, Aurelio, Meireles, Maxi, and Kuyt, we're replaced with younger players on lesser contracts.

    Since then, FSG have been consistent with this policy. In Klopp, they have even appointed a manager who is known for getting value in the market. Here's a guy who pulled the plug on a deal for Texeira, because he didn't want to over pay. Here's a guy who pulled out of signing Draxler because he wanted first team wages without earning them first.

    Bearing all of this in mind, I can see no way that either FSG or Klopp would sanction a new contract worth over 75k a week to a player who wasn't going to be first choice. I can't see either of them lashing out in excess of 20 million on a new centre back to sit on the bench, or even be used as a rotational option. Likewise, there is no way on God's green earth that they are going to spend around 50 million in transfer fees and a couple of hundred thousand a week in wages to have 2 unproven wide forwards as back up options. I'm not saying it doesn't make sense, I'm saying that they won't do it.
     

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