USMNT - Klinsmann Gets the Sack

Discussion in 'World Football' started by El Dorado, Nov 22, 2016.

  1. El Dorado

    El Dorado Well-Known Member

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    There seem to be a lot of American fans on this site and many expatriate British living in America commenting here. Wonder if there is any merit in a USMNT thread, especially now that Jurgen Klinsmann has been binned off.

    Is his sacking deserving? Was it smart to bring Bruce Arena back into the program? Has the U.S. made any real progress since the last time Arena was coach?

    What's next for the USMNT? What style should the U.S. play?
     
  2. Dortmund fan

    Dortmund fan It's fishing time!

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    If you look only at 0:4 against Mexico, yes.
    If you look at his work since 2011 there and how many power he invested, no.
    If you look at US team in Brazil 2014 and their development, no.
    Yes, Mexico are their rival, but it's a strong rival this year.
     
  3. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    I have lots of thoughts about this, but they are rambly

    As a coach his time had come. The performance against Costa Rica was bad as I've ever seen at this level. Most of all, after losing two games on the bounce he has to expect criticism. He took it like a child and fought back, and I think that was the tipping point for Gulati.

    However, I am concerned that the problems in American soccer culture and some of the improvements he managed to get instituted to those ends will now be thrown out with him. He ruffled a lot of feathers with the things he said, but I personally think he has been right in everything he has said about the limitations of the game in America.

    In terms of development, kids do not play nearly enough when young compared to kids elsewhere because of differences in the social structure of America (no playground style play). The focus on high school athletics and then college exacerbates that, and the MLS is subpar in terms of development because of the quality and because too few games really matter.

    In terms of attitude he thinks they are too parochial and too unwilling to hold themselves to the standards of the teams they are chasing. there are too many players willing to act like superstars becayse they are the best American while being thoroughly mediocre on the world level. This was the main reason he dropped Donovan from the last world cup squad and the reason he wants so many of them to play in Europe. If you think a 40 year old Robbie Keane is good and your marker for what you want to become, then go and play in germany and see first hand what the likes of Lewondowski and Robben look like and can do.

    He is 100% right in this, but I wonder if he pushed it too much and ended up making them lose confidence. I had started to think that the best solution was like they had with Germany, to bring in a first team coach and keep him as the figure head and developmental leader, but he made things too poisonous to be kept around in any capacity. They've now brought in a guy who is a firm believer in the America Ra Ra Ra concept, a big advocate of the MLS and the quality of the players he has at its disposal. It will probably produce shirt-term gain, especially after the seeming lack of morale they have now. But it will hurt the long term development to forget the lessons Jurgen was trying to drive him, and I think they will be lost under Arena.
     
    StrongINTheAir and Gegen Pretzel like this.
  4. El Dorado

    El Dorado Well-Known Member

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    I get what he was trying to accomplish, but the U.S. doesn't have the players to execute it. That said, for a time it seemed to work okay, especially in the runup to 2014 and in the tournament itself. I have to say he lost me when he didn't pick Landon Donovan in 2014, not that it made any difference in the result, which wasn't too bad, but because Donovan was fit enough to play and still one of the best players in the U.S. (and also the best player the U.S. has ever produced...by far).

    Sunil Galati may have burdened him too much by making him technical director, as well. Too big a job. In retrospect, from that time on the results suffered.

    For me he just never seemed to have a settled team and played far too many players. You don't see see successful national sides do what he did, always trying new guys.

    Take Landon Donovan out of the picture, and the U.S. national team hasn't progressed much since the 1994 squad. You look at the guys on that team: Claudio Reyna, Marcelo Balboa, Eric Wynalda, Cobi Jones, Tab Ramos, Alexi Lalas. As good as any players we have on the squad today. Bora Milutinović had the right tactics, too. First, don't get scored on. Then if you get a goal, okay. Good enough to get them through the group that year.

    Which brings us to now. Without Donovan we lack a player who can grab a match by the scruff of the neck (admittedly, I haven't seen this Pulisic play yet, and I missed the recent debacles). Until we have that, it should be back to basics. First, don't get scored on. Maybe Big Sam should throw his resume at us (I'd welcome it). I like Bruce Arena. Definitely the best soccer coach we've ever produced, multiple championships at the college and MLS levels. Have to admit, 2002 was more about Donovan and Demarcas Beasley than about Bruce, but he'll do for now, I guess. I do think Sam Allardyce would be perfect for us, though.
     
  5. RaoulDuke

    RaoulDuke Wind-Down Merchant

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    At first they lost 1-2 vs mexico at home and then 4-0 against costa rica away and are 6th (meaning last) in the group now.
    The 4-0 against costa rica broke his neck. I didn't watch the game but have read that klinsi did everything wrong there.
    I'm not surprised. Other teams have sacked their managers in the past after humiliating defeats.
     
  6. NYRhockey

    NYRhockey Well-Known Member

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    I didn't want him gone and i think Arena is a short-sighted move for a quick rebound but no look into the future. Jurgen wanted his players scattered across Europe rather than playing at home in the MLS and while i think that hurts the league it does make sense to have your players in the European leagues playing against better competition. MLS may not be a very strong league, but if you look at South America, for example, the Colombian or Chilean domestic leagues are not very good yet they have strong national teams.

    What i don't understand is why Gulati is not getting any heat. He has been the prez since 2006 and under his leadership the program has not gotten markedly better.
     
  7. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    I think that actually is the point Jurgen was so eager to stamp out. Wynalda would be an NASL player if he was around today. Ramos was good only when compared to a group of players who had made the world cup once since the 50s. Reyna was the best of the lot by a distance, but still had way less success and impact abroad than the likes of Dempsey, Jones and Bradley.
     
  8. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    In large part because their best players play elsewhere. If you look at the side that recently beat Argentina I think it was only 3 of them played for Chilean clubs, but 2 of whom had spent significant time in Europe previously. Your examples show why the best American players should look to play elsewhere rathers than supporting the idea of staying in MLS
     
  9. NYRhockey

    NYRhockey Well-Known Member

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    Correct, i agree with Jurgen's idea of the best players going overseas but i also think that by downplaying MLS Klinsmann pissed people off within the USSF, who want to promote MLS more, thus the hiring of Arena.
     
  10. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    Oh definitely. The US manager has no responsibility to support MLS anymore than he thinks is necessary to provide a place where some of his players can play. Gulati hired a guy he knew was not a fan of the league, which wasnt a problem until he also hired him in the Technical role, whatever that was called. He created the conflict by hiring a guy he knew thought support of the MLS was contrary to what he needed for the national team job into a job that was required to help grow the MLS. I think that paradox explains the dysfunction that exists in the USSF. I don't think the guy who is responsible for the administration of the national team should be responsible for the MLS, and then nor should he also have an interest in saving the NASL.
     
  11. El Dorado

    El Dorado Well-Known Member

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    It's a little harsh, no? Wynalda had a decent career going in Germany before being purchased by the MLS. Ernie Steward was successful in Europe. Tab Ramos in Spain. To the extent that all players have become more fit and competitive in the last twenty years, perhaps they might be a smidge below today's players in the same way that European players of today may be more fit than those of the 1990s.

    Anyway, I think the only thing that will move the needle forward is for professional soccer to become more and more of a money sport in the U.S. Only that will provide a large enough pool of high quality players for the U.S. to join the elite countries.
     
  12. Limiescouse

    Limiescouse Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't have said it if I thought it was harsh.

    Wynalda had a couple of years for a lowly Bundesliga side before playing for a second division and then going back to the states. He does not compare to the level Donovan or Dempsey were able to play at. Compared to alternatives, and the ones more likely to be playing for Arena, Jozy or Bobby Wood then it's much more apt comparison though. That represent a present problem for Arena, but not one of a lack of progress.

    Ramos, I didnt even know he played in Spain, and after checking I realise why - a couple of seasons in the Segunda. It's hardly comparable to the way the likes of Bradley and Jones were able to establish themselves on pretty decent, sometimes even very good, sides.

    I would also say that Brian McBride, while admittedly pre-Jurgen, was far better than anything they had in the 94 group and so represents the general advancement made. Take someone like Onyewu and compare him to Balboa and it's not a comparison. Cameron is not a world beater, but he is a very solid Prem league player on a midtable side. That would have been considered a monumental level of success in the 90s, but it's now unremarkable. Back in the 90s success was playing most games for a rubbish side in a good league or an ok side in a rubbish league.

    I think one fo the issues Jurgen had was that his best players were old and the new generation doesnt seem to have kicked on as much. Cycles like that though happen to pretty much every international side, except for Brazil. Overall the trajectory has been upwards though and this plateauing hasnt gone on long enough to claim that it's systemic.
     
  13. FritzWalterndCatfishing

    FritzWalterndCatfishing everythingkrauterthaneveryoneelse†ripmrkilmister†

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    klinsi is not the dumbest manager. mls is such an boring lower event. im rumblin out. jarrrrmm.
    mls is boring. jarmmmm. im out.
     

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