What would constitute a good summer?

Discussion in 'The Albert - LFC Talk' started by Zinedine Biscan, Feb 20, 2017.

  1. Zinedine Biscan

    Zinedine Biscan The patient one

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    Still a while until our next match, so may as well start up another discussion in the meantime.

    It sounds like the club is already turning its attention towards the summer window and beginning work on identifying the signings required.

    So, my question to the TIA community would be, what in your mind would it take for you to consider it as a good summer? There might even be different levels at play - ie this for an average summer, this as well for a good summer, and these as well for a great summer...

    Feel free to talk about other areas as well as signings, and with signings feel free to either name names or just the type of players we should be looking at.

    For me, I think there's a lot to be achieved for me to consider it a good summer, but at the same time I think it can be done if we put our minds to it.

    The first thing to think about is trimming the deadwood, freeing up wages and squad places. For me, that's finding new clubs for:

    - Daniel Sturridge - sorry Dan, you were awesome at your peak but just look like a slow, stroppy, ineffective shadow of yourself. Time to move on and free up something like £150k p/w on wages.
    - Danny Ings - I think some, even many, may disagree here. But while I like what I've seen from Danny, his knees appear to be shot, with something like four serious injuries there in the past five or so seasons. Even if it's bad luck as opposed to something chronic, the sheer volume of serious injuries to the same joints makes me doubt whether he'll ever fulfill his potential. It's a crying shame, but I think we should move on.
    - Lucas - he's been a good club servant (not a legend though, imo), but time for a parting of the ways.
    - Simon Mignolet - he's never getting better than he is now, which is not reliable enough for a no1, whereas at least Karius is young and may yet improve.
    - Alberto Moreno - I think he was given an extra year as Klopp wasn't sure if he could do anything with him, but surely by now he's made up his mind on that score. Get rid.
    - Dejan Lovren - he's ok, mostly solid with a few howlers here and there. But I think we can and should do better.
    - Lazar Markovic - I think he's gone anyway, so not much to add here.
    - Assorted kids and senior loanees - Manninger, Sakho, Bogdan (yes, he's still here), Wisdom (ditto), Randall (TAA already much better).

    So in this 'great summer' scenario, that's 12 senior(ish) players sold/released. Manninger may stay as part of the coaching team, though, which is fine. There may be other kids lower down the pecking order to go to, but a) I'm not the most qualified to comment on those and b) they're not that important for a discussion of changes to the senior squad.

    So, after outgoings, that gives us a squad, not taking into account any registration quotas, for 2017/8 that looks like this:

    Goal: Karius, Ward
    Def: Clyne, Matip, Gomez, Klavan, Milner, TAA, Flanno
    Mid: Hendo, Lallana, Wijnaldum, Can (I'd give him another season to push on), Stewart, Grujic, Ejaria
    Forwards: Coutinho, Mane, Firmino, Origi, Ojo, Woodburn, Kent

    Those I've highlighted are basically cover, and some may even go out on loan. That leaves us 14 senior players, with 9-10 kids who'll fill in here and there as required, but shouldn't be relied on for extended periods.

    That brings us to part 2 of 'great summer' scenario, which is new signings. Clearly if those players are sold, there's gaps to be filled. Primarily:

    - Keeper: Klopp needs to decide whether to gamble on Karius as no1, in which case a dependable no2 is required, otherwise we need an excellent no1 which will mean Karius developing out of the spotlight for the most part.
    - Defence: RB should be sorted between Clyne, TAA and Flanno, if he's kept on. Our two priorities here are a strong, perhaps fairly young, CB to be first-choice alongside Matip, and a left-back. More than happy for Milner to be first-choice again here, in which case we'll need a high-potential youngster to cover him and learn the ropes for the next season or two before replacing him.
    - Midfield: Our first choices are good, but behind those three is basically zero depth. I'd be looking for a deeper-lying anchor/playmaker who can provide depth for Hendo, and a more box-to-box type who can rotate with Lallana and Gini. Dahoud could be a good shout for the latter.
    - Forwards: A striker and a quick, creative wideman with an eye for goal as well. Bonus points if he can operate on both flanks. For the former it must be someone who's prepared to work hard. For the latter, I like the look of Brandt.

    So that's a total of 7 incomings - keeper, CB, LB, DM/CM, CM, winger, striker. Gives us 21 senior players for a season with Europe to contend with, which should be workable, plus a good number of kids providing further depth beyond that.

    Other 'great summer' scenario points would be:

    - bringing in a capable new CEO who Klopp can work with in harmony
    - full preseason for all players, no major injuries that disrupt things
    - no annoying speculation about Coutinho, Klopp and Doris the tea lady being wanted by Barcelona
    - hang on to all the players we want to keep.

    IF (maybe a big if) we can accomplish all of the above, I think we'd be in a great position to compete next season.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
  2. Zoran

    Zoran Fighting like beavers.

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    We're preparing a new contract for Lovren, surely we're not looking to sell. But he could be up for another fight if we get a new CB in. Matip's health (or better to say, his 100% fitness) could often be in question, so that's also a factor we need to consider and there might be times when we'll have to pick for which game(s) we want him available. Lovren probably stays between the 2nd and 3rd CB option, depending on what quality we bring and how quick can that guy settle in to be a starter straight away.

    Flanno will be sold. Was hardly going be a starter at Burnley with their promotion & style (why would they change, especially at the back), after being out as well. Clyne proves he can play a lot of minutes and then we don't have a direct backup (I'm not ready to call Trent a direct/reliable 2nd option yet), but a number of options (Trent, Milner... depending on what we do at LB, Gomez maybe... depending on what we do at CB and how do we assess him, like with Grujic in midfield) depending on qualities, opponent, etc.

    Will be interesting to see how we sell Moreno. I thought he'd get more minutes this season, but again, not surprised Klopp's ignorance and using him only when we have to give Milner a rest. Maybe the new emergance of 3 at the back could help us in this situation. I certainly hope it's not a loan or something, sometimes we think it's easier and that windows will be done so clean and efficient than it is (that's how these "how is xy still under our contract" happen). Sakho's wages could also be an issue if he doesn't lower his expectations a bit. Not in terms of him finding a club, that will be easier than with Moreno, but it could distract some clubs that are interested in him.
     
  3. Zinedine Biscan

    Zinedine Biscan The patient one

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    Flanno's by the by, really. I'd personally keep him as he's a good lad and covers both flanks, but I wouldn't be altogether surprised if he does go, and it would probably be a release rather than a sale anyway and unlikely to occupy too much of our time.

    But I'd be disappointed with a new contract for Lovren, though if he does stay then I'd expect Klavan to go in his place and Lovren bump down to Klavan's level in the pecking order.
     
  4. rupzzz

    rupzzz TIA Regular

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    A good summer for me - a kick ass holiday, loads of good weather, seeing my folks retire, and getting a promotion....

    On footy (seeing as I presume that's the main point of this thread) - it's all dependent on CL or EL football really.

    For me, a new GK (or Ward back), CB, CM, and Striker or Winger are essentials.
     
  5. SirBillShankly

    SirBillShankly Joe and Holly's dad

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    For me I think we need maybe 5-6 signings.

    A reliable, consistent and big, physically imposing centre back to partner Matip.Lovren to be 3rd choice

    A left winger, preferably a pacy, skilful carbon copy of Mane.

    An athletic defensive midfielder.

    Centre forward.Sturridge's time at LFC is coming to an end I would think.

    A proper left-footed left-back.Milner a brilliant back up.

    Moreno, Sahko, Flanagan, Sturridge, Ings. Markovic, Randal and Can to be shown the door.
     
  6. football.tiger

    football.tiger TIA Squad Member

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    For me, most of the 1st eleven picks itself. The only place I would see being taken over would be Lovren, maybe Migs. He'll look for young potential that can be bed in and improve through the season. It'll be higher quality in depth...
     
  7. Red Armada

    Red Armada TIA Regular

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    As far as signings go: a forward, a winger, a midfielder, a centre half and a left back. All of them first or near to first choice. Ideally one of them would be a higher level player, someone like Aubameyang for instance.

    Would be nice to see the club committing to redevelop the Anfield Rd end and/or merge Melwood with the Academy.
     
  8. eng.amohd

    eng.amohd The false nine

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    1. Get as much money from Studgy, Ings (then we will need to fill out our English players quota), Moreno, Migs (depending on Ward's ability really), Sakho and Lucas

    2. Deciding over Marko's ability (which I am sure he is quite talented, needs some Klopp guiding). He would really save us buying a 30M+ player for a winger

    3. Buying a top defender while keeping Lovren and Gomez backups

    4. Buying a high-potential-not-so-young left back to rotate with Milly

    5. A Hendo style midfielder

    6. A Gini style midfielder (if Grujic isn't ready)

    7. A Mane-esque player and a Coutinho-esque player

    If 3 or 4 of these are top players, then I'd be chuffed!
     
  9. Zoran

    Zoran Fighting like beavers.

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    On Flanagan, yeah maybe we won't complicate things so much for him, but I had a look and his contract is up to 2019. We'll probably get some sort of fee, maybe from a Championship side.

    On Lovren and Klavan, I very much doubt it. With a new CB in, I see Klavan simply varying between 3rd and 4th option. Lucas was picked a couple of times ahead of him at CB this season. It also depends the type of new CB, because Matip I believe can cover both CB sides.
     
  10. MarkMcC

    MarkMcC TIA Squad Member

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    Having to book tickets for watching us in Europe as we have already pre qualified for Champions League...
     
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  11. Zinedine Biscan

    Zinedine Biscan The patient one

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    Crossed wires, when I said Klavan to go in Lovren's place, I meant sold if Lovren is retained, then Lovren dropping down to the 3rd choice status Klavan currently occupies. One of them to be sold, basically.
     
  12. SirBillShankly

    SirBillShankly Joe and Holly's dad

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    Don't think selling Lovren would be a smart move , I know a lot of people don't rate him highly but I think he is decent, he would be a brilliant back-up as would Klavan.Not sure we should be releasing either of them.I suppose a lot depends on how quickly Gomez develops and whether he will be used at CB or RB and whether or not we release Lucas.
     
  13. Zinedine Biscan

    Zinedine Biscan The patient one

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    Thing is, we need a new first-choice CB. Assuming that happens, we then have Matip, new CB, Lovren, Klavan, Gomez, which to my mind is one too many and leave Gomes getting very few chances in the team.
     
  14. SirBillShankly

    SirBillShankly Joe and Holly's dad

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    Yeah, I agree and would Lovren be happy on the bench every week at this stage if his career? I think not.Maybe Kloppo intends to use Gomez as cover for Clyne?

    Also, you forgot Lucas mate ;-)
     
  15. Zinedine Biscan

    Zinedine Biscan The patient one

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    Not really, as in my original scenario, the position of which I'm arguing from, he's down as one to leave. In fairness, of all those on my sale list, I think he's one of the likeliest to leave. Noticed in the last couple of days his old club Gremio saying they'd like to bring him back, would be nice for him I think.
     
  16. SirBillShankly

    SirBillShankly Joe and Holly's dad

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    I think if Kloppo brings in a CB for the first team I would imagine Lucas and possibly Klavan will be allowed to leave.

    Whatever happens I reckon it's going to be an epic window. A few deals lined up for May already I reckon.We are already decent, we just need a bit of strengthening and a top left winger.I can't wait!
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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  17. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    I dont think Flanno is capable of playing much anymore. The lad coming back from Burnley isnt the same one we saw in 2013/14, so like Ings I dont think we plan for him being in the squad going forward but if he is still here next season we (or rather Klopp) see what he does in training.

    A good summers business for me would be keeping those Klopp wants to keep while bringing in 5-6 players to flesh out the remainder of the squad, so that we have adequate cover where it's currently lacking but without stopping opportunities for the younger players trying to break through. Players capable of winning the first team spot coming in would be a bonus, but not necessary for me.

    Would definitely like to see us add some pace to the squad.
     
  18. ptt

    ptt Mane I'm excited for this season

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    It not raining every day would be a start.
     
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  19. rupzzz

    rupzzz TIA Regular

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    Surprised to see so many wrating Ings and Can off. Ings hasn't had a chance yet due to injury. Can is a decent footballer, although in poor form, but we need all bigger squad so selling him makes no sense, unless he wants to leave.

    We need strength in depth. Players I expect to leave are limited to Sakho, Sturridge, Lucas and Randall. Maybe Flanno and Markovic too. We can't lose too many otherwise next season we will be out of all competuitions by Feb again.
     
  20. Zinedine Biscan

    Zinedine Biscan The patient one

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    Like I said in the OP, I like Ings, I just think at this point his knees are fucked. Four serious injuries - talking ACLs and cartilage damage - to both knees over the past five or so seasons... I just don't know how you come back from that, certainly to the level we require anyway. And that's assuming he doesn't get any more issues. A shame the way it's panned out, but I think it's best if we focus our energies on a first-choice forward to rotate with Firmino and use Origi as our development striker.
     
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  21. Not Worthy

    Not Worthy Well-Known Member

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    I pretty much agree with ZB's initial run-down. I do believe though that a few spots in the first 11 can either be improved upon as well as higher-level squad development for putting pressure on the starting team. For example, all of the defensive positions could be 'improved':-

    - Neither goalkeeper should be considered safe. A new No1 that surprises when he makes a mistake rather than doesn't, should be a priority.
    - RB, there's no genuine pressure on Clyne but he consistently does a job, would be expensive to improve upon. TAA coming along nicely, though and Gomez has RB potential too for additional minutes. Not a priority
    - CB, Matip has been good but not a rock. Gomez long-term is a definite keep. After that I'd be happy to see a 1st team CB brought in and 2 of Lucas, Klavan, Lovren allowed to leave. Medium priority.
    - LB, Milner, despite what he's given should, not be a long-term solution. I'd prefer a replacement. Medium priority.

    - Midfield is our weak-point and has been for about 6-7years. Henderson, Lallana and Wijn are keepers. After that, there's no obvious quality in terms of game-changers, leaders or game-managers. Grujic may offer some of it but that's speculation. Ejaria too has potential. We need 2 midfielders of starting quality (e.g. Weigl, Isco, Hamsik (without the hair), Koke, Strootman (without the injuries)), for me. High priority.
    - AM/Forward. Coutinho, Firmino, Mane and Woodburn all definites. Origi almost certainly a keeper. That leaves us short of an out and out goalscorer. Sanchez, I guess, would make most lists but feels unlikely. Icardi, Barbosa ??????
    A fit, motivated Goetze coming off the bench into the front 3 would not be unpalatable and his adaptability, whilst a problem for others, might suit us for rotating the core front 3. Additionally, a true winger (e.g. Perisic or Mahrez (perhaps), Brandt also).
    Two additions needed. High priority.

    So, 5-7 signings (GK, 1x CB, 1x LB, 2 x Mid, 2 x Fwd) needed to improve the options in and around the 1st Eleven.
     
  22. Chewbazza

    Chewbazza True Believer

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    I was kind of working on something similar myself, so here's what I came up with:

    Current squad based on appearances so far:

    Mignolet?
    KLAVAN

    CLYNE
    TAA

    Lovren?
    MATIP
    Klavan?
    Lucas

    Milner?
    Moreno

    HENDERSON
    WIJNALDUM
    LALLANA
    Can?
    Stewart?
    EJARIA

    MANE
    GRUJIC
    COUTINHO
    WOODBURN

    Firmino?
    Origi?


    GOMEZ
    Randall?
    OJO
    WILSON
    Sturridge?
    Ings?

    This is based on the 433 formation and all planning is based on this. Last summer I planned for 4321 which would have resulted in different suggestions but Klopp switched things up.

    Out of that lot, there are 3 categories which are DEFINITE KEEPS, definite sales and those that have question marks?

    The question marks are for a variety of reasons, ie. Milner has been excellent this season and should be kept in the squad, the question mark being should he be our first choice LB or should he be rotating in the midfield?

    Anyway, in terms of signings that means:

    GK: Need to make a choice if Karius is number 1. If he is then probably bring back Ward as 2. If not then sign a new GK.

    CB: Definitely need one new signing to forge a partnership with Matip and probably put Gomez in as 3rd choice.Maybe keep Klavan as 4th. Or consider 2 new CB?

    LB. Moreno doesn't seem to have the trust of Klopp and can't defend. Either a strong first choice brought in or a younger player who can rotate with Milner. Or both if Milner is to rejoin midfield.

    CM. When Lallana and Wij were injured, Can was not a suitable replacement and Stewart did not seem to be trusted. I wouldn't necessarily sell either, but it needs thinking about. Regardless we should look at making a signing here or making two at LB and moving Milner back into midfield.

    FWD's: When Mane and Coutinho are out there is a lack of an obvious solution other than disrupting the midfield. We should definitely look at a signing here. Ideally someone who could play both sides.

    Firmino has a question mark because he is not a 'proper' striker but his best performances are through the middle. He should not be our 1st choice striker and with injured Sturridge/Ings and inconsistent Origi we should definitely sign a striker.

    In conclusion then, sell 6 or 7 of this lot plus basically everyone that has not been involved at all this season and bring in

    GK?
    CB VVD and/or Tah
    LB Chilwell?
    CM Dahoud?
    FWD Pulisic and Sturridge replacement

    So between 7 and 12 sales, and probably 6 to 7 new signings, 2 or 3 of which walk straight into the starting 11 (GK?, CB, ST)
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017
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  23. Iluvatar

    Iluvatar Eru

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    So basically the who would you buy thread??? ;-)
     
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  24. T.C.B

    T.C.B Well-Known Member

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    I'd go along a much simpler line and say lets buy ready to start, more or less straight into the side, 1st team players. I just feel we have seen enough "ones for the future" or "players who can be developed" to last me a life time. I also don't think that back up or young alternatives are our problem because we seem well stocked at the minute.
    Lets buy quality and that would be Keeper, Centre half, Middle of the park, Striker and a pace on the flank.
    Lucas, Sturridge, Sakho, Moreno, Mignolet and Can (if he pisses about on the contract) will be the big name casualties.
     
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  25. Not Worthy

    Not Worthy Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, but this one smells of suntan lotion and not embrocation oil.....
     
  26. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    Like @Zinedine Biscan, I fear his injuries leave us no choice. We cant expect him to stay fit for a season because recent history indicates he breaks down with a serious injury each year. Personally, i think Ings was a great fit for us, especially under Klopp. Had he stayed fit this season, i dont think we would have experienced the problems we did in January.
     
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  27. Zinedine Biscan

    Zinedine Biscan The patient one

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    Kinda... but I wanted it to be a bit more encompassing than that. There are other things the club needs to address beyond signings. A new GK coach, maybe?
     
  28. redfanman

    redfanman TIA Regular Valued Member

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    How can we be well stocked for back up players, when Klopp rarely trusts them to do a job, and when they do play, they dont perform? - Who covers Mane or Coutinho? Who steps in for Hendo when he is injured?
     
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  29. GratefulRed

    GratefulRed TIA Reserve Team

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    I just hope the team doesn't get complacent in the summer after winning the league on goal difference in such dramatic fashion.

    Klopp and the rest of the staff will have to work really hard to keep the squad hungry and focused to avoid a drop off next season.

    :well done:
     
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  30. rupzzz

    rupzzz TIA Regular

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    Whilst I don't disagree, I am just one of leaving those decisions to the doctors and physios, if you get what I mean. I don't see him as one that needs to go. If the docs feel he can overcome the injuries, so be it. If not, so be it also.

    I guess in my mind, he is not in the "must get rid" list.
     
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