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amazingly.....

redbj

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rafa benitez won the biggest prize in club football in his first year at LFC, a year later and he returned the FA cup to the clubs coffers, he also has in his CV at this club probably our best shot at winning the league since sky invented football.

Kenny Dalglish was and is a club legend, had us playing some fantastic football before leveling off a fair bit, won our first trophy since the 2006 FA cup mentioned before, and had won leagues championships with us previously....

so.....

amazingly, Dalglish and Rafa were not afforded patience by fans and club officials, despite a proven track record, yet Rodgers needs to be given time, regardless of results, to implement his style....its at least a 3 year plan, yet rafa was sacked within 4 years of actually achieving something....

so apparently passing sideways and walking forward is more important than winning stuff......

am i slagging off rodgers? yeah, a bit, but the point i make is, are we getting bogged down with rhetoric and future driven promise over actually doing what counts?...ie winning trophies?

has our approach become too scientific, that retaining possesion is more important than winning games, because at some point in the future keeping possession will win us games?????
 

Hope in your heart

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Against Newcastle, a long hopeful punt from Enrique, and an unlikely individual exploit from Suarez rescued us a point.

Against Reading, Sterling scored from a direct, defence-splitting pass from Suarez through the middle.

So much about 'tiki-taka'. We haven't scored many goals actually playing like that. There was one against WBA (Suso, Assaidi, Sahin if I remember well). The rest has always been resulting from much more direct actions, or from dead ball situations.
 

kylel39

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Rafa's tenure just became blighted by those two parasites, so any comparisons of his reign just aren't worth looking at anymore. He was a victim of situation - which we all know - but I would have loved to see him have a fair crack at it under FSG. But that looks very unlikely now.

Dalglish is a tougher one. He wasn't their man as such and the appointment was almost forced upon them because he had done so well. I would have liked Kenny to be given one more season but on reflection I can see why he was sacked and if I'm being honest I can't see us as being any better off with Kenny in charge today. The squad would have needed investment which looks like it wasn't there this window.

I understand why Rodgers needs time, it's fine saying passing football has always been associated with Liverpool but in my opinion not of this kind. It requires players who maybe aren't that comfortable in possessions to learn to be and fast. The money isn't there to make it happen over night and that's why it's going to take time. Plus the fact that our youth system looks excellent (thanks Rafa & Co.) and will blossom in the future with time.

Winning trophies is what we all seek to achieve but it's not like it used to be. With the financial power of Chelsea, City etc. we have to go about it another way and that's what I think Rodgers is doing. I'm happy to give the man time, for me he's got a method and it's one I think will work in time. I understand peoples concerns regarding out 'tika-taka' brand not quite producing the results and a lot of our goals as quite rightly pointed out have came from direct play. But there's also been a lot of chances came from our tika-taka approach just not the finishing touch unfortunately.
 

liveforthereds

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For me all managers should be given time to at least get their feet under the table. Looking back over the last few years the club has had a lot to deal with. Rafa was sacked by Dumb and Dumber because we had not qualified for CL and they saw it as a chance to get rid of a thorn that was sticking it to them and was not on their side, they then brought in Roy who at the time I thought was a good choice. We will never know how things would have turned out if he had had the right support from the owners we had at the time. I do think the fans got him the sack as the current owners did not have a clue (some say they still have not got a clue) and went with popular opinon, they then went with the only choice they had at the time as they knew Kenny's history at the club.

Did they give Kenny a fair crack of the whip I don't think so but with the owners allowing the out lay they did under his time in charge we did not achive the goals that where set. Kenny was not their choice and was never going to be in the job long but saying that they should have given him at least another year which would have given them more time to find the right man.

Is Rogers the right man I really don't know he has us playing some nice stuff but thats not going to win you games, he has made mistakes which may or maynot come back to bite. One thing is this he is the man in the job and I want him given more time than the last 2 managers to improve the club on the field we can't carry on sacking managers unless the club falls lower than we are at the moment, I feel Rogers this season will get the team back up the table, He needs to be given better support by the board.

The board I feel have tried to reverse the big spending under Kenny as they possably know as a club we can't carry on spending like we are in the CL, Yes we can say the club is getting more money in from offield activies but that will only go so far. We are falling behind in the money stakes as the stadium just can't compeat with other clubs at the moment, CL money is worth a lot and I feel Dumb and Dumber have done more damage to the club than we may relise. I do feel this is the start of a new chapter in the club history and it is going to be a few years before things change.

What we need is stabilty not chop and change it may work for some clubs but those clubs have spent a lot of money to do that.
 

TFC

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I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If you believed Kenny and/or Rafa deserved the patience of the supporters and owners then you should feel the same way about Rodgers. Two wrongs don't make a right, so because others were wrong about our previous managers doesn't justify treating the new manager in the manner you felt wasn't right for the old ones.
 

lfc.eddie

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Well those that are taking up this flavour of the month stance, the tiki taka boys, one claimed he doesn't really care what one has offered in the past. He only interested in the current affairs of the club. So apparently what you have won with us mean jack shit if you are not pick of the minute. Right now, tiki taka is the pick of the minute.
 

Hope in your heart

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I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If you believed Kenny and/or Rafa deserved the patience of the supporters and owners then you should feel the same way about Rodgers. Two wrongs don't make a right, so because others were wrong about our previous managers doesn't justify treating the new manager in the manner you felt wasn't right for the old ones.
I think most of us, if not all, are in agreement about this, mate.
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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Well those that are taking up this flavour of the month stance, the tiki taka boys, one claimed he doesn't really care what one has offered in the past. He only interested in the current affairs of the club. So apparently what you have won with us mean jack shit if you are not pick of the minute. Right now, tiki taka is the pick of the minute.
Thats the worst thing, when a player like Pepe and wages are now being mentioned in the same breath. Under perform/ lose form and because of his wages the increasing mentality is that find a player who is equal standard to an under performing Pepe and pay him less.

Ignoring the past, how many years when he has ben a top top player for us, or that form is not perminant.
 

Sweeting

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I genuinely think we need to wait two years before we judge this tenure.

I know that's a decent amount of time and people are going to be reluctant to wait that long but that's what we have to do. Let's remember Rodgers is basically a rookie manager, we have a team that is full of players who are either old (Gerrard, Carragher...), shit (Downing, Cole...) or young (Sterling, Borini...) - we have maybe two world class players in Agger and Suarez. We are only 17 games into Rodgers tenure, hasn't been an amazing start, but it was never going to be with the fixtures we have.

It took Swansea three managers and seven years to become the footballing side they are now - we can't expect to do it in 3 months.
 

lfc.eddie

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I've said it before and I'll say it again:

If you believed Kenny and/or Rafa deserved the patience of the supporters and owners then you should feel the same way about Rodgers. Two wrongs don't make a right, so because others were wrong about our previous managers doesn't justify treating the new manager in the manner you felt wasn't right for the old ones.
I can safely say everyone in here, this thread supports Brendan Rodgers. I have admitted I am a fan of his work in Swansea. But the type of support he gets these days in the forum, coupled with the way he has conducted himself to the media, rather cringe worthy. I for one do not believe, no matter how bad a player is, should be slagged off in public by a manager. I don't even do that to my employees who some has years and years of education, and stronger character, compared to young footballers.

He is being given time. We are not here taking a shot at him. We are taking the shot at those who think he invented football, that he brought the passing philosophy to the club, that he is the man that would deliver us the league because we play passing game.

Need I remind everyone, Swansea is not exactly a high scoring team under him. They are not all out attacking side as well. The game against Newcastle when we pinned them back, that is what we do last season, what we did against every team last season. Frantic, fast pace, coming from every angle attacking the opponent. That is what we did last season. Remember how many "game of two halves" did we have last season?
 

TFC

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If your actually being patient and giving Rodgers time...then stop bringing up last season. Its unproductive and pointless other than to try to undermine what the team is currently doing.
 

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If your actually being patient and giving Rodgers time...then stop bringing up last season. Its unproductive and pointless other than to try to undermine what the team is currently doing.
Completely disagree with this point. Anyone can talk as much as he wants about last season. Why should there be some sort of collective amnesia concerning last season?
 

TFC

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Completely disagree with this point. Anyone can talk as much as he wants about last season. Why should there be some sort of collective amnesia concerning last season?
Saying you support the manager and then in the same breath imply that he hasn't really done anything isn't supportive in my books. Perhaps we have different definitions of support but I think there's more to being supportive than just saying "I don't think he should be fired soon" and one of those involves not trying to undermine what he's done and is trying to do with the squad.
 

ubermick

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Agree with you there Hope. There shouldn't be collective amnesia but there shouldn't be selective amnesia either, which I think a lot of people have when it comes to remembering the last few seasons with rose tinted specs. (This is the bit where people will reply and sputter that in no way do they do that, they look at all things logically and fairly, and how dare I even bring it up.)
 

Hope in your heart

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Saying you support the manager and then in the same breath imply that he hasn't really done anything isn't supportive in my books. Perhaps we have different definitions of support but I think there's more to being supportive than just saying "I don't think he should be fired soon" and one of those involves not trying to undermine what he's done and is trying to do with the squad.
But who has really done this so far, apart maybe one or two knobheads ion internet forums? Voicing occasional criticism towards the gaffer (when deserved) isn't undermining him imo, especially on an internet forum. Isn't it just discussing things?
 

denos666

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dalglish should have been given time and wasn't. benitez i feel was given time and was too far gone to sort it out.

rodgers despite me not thinking he's as good as dalglish also needs to be given time.

however yes i agree, dickheads who harp on at dalglish but then insist on time being given to rodgers are complete bellends for not seeing how hypocritical that is.

what's done is done now though. don't like it but can't change it. rodgers is here now and he does need time. i have doubts that he'll get us to the top but if he can manage to sign some top class forwards then it might happen (i don't hold walcott as the answer to our problems as he is far too inconsistent. needs to be a huntelaar type player in my book).
 

Hope in your heart

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(...) (This is the bit where people will reply and sputter that in no way do they do that, they look at all things logically and fairly, and how dare I even bring it up.)
Indeed, how dare you bring this up? Selective amnesia... tsk tsk...
 

redbj

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Amazingly pointless thread which amazingly misses out key points

Such as the fact that Kenny spent far more than Rodgers has done and started with a stronger, more experienced squad in the first place.

To single out just one.
i was also amazingly drunk when i posted it so itmakes amazingly good sense if you conside the outside parameters.

in fairness, probably not a thread, but a point nonetheles, or even just a note, that rafa won his trophies at the start of his reign, so he got his 'time to be patient' seasons after actually doing stuff, it was one season after coming second, and chop chop.
 

ILLOK

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i was also amazingly drunk when i posted it so itmakes amazingly good sense if you conside the outside parameters.

in fairness, probably not a thread, but a point nonetheles, or even just a note, that rafa won his trophies at the start of his reign, so he got his 'time to be patient' seasons after actually doing stuff, it was one season after coming second, and chop chop.
Yeah, don't get me wrong I completely agree.

I was absolutely fucking livid at the time that there was talk of sacking Rafa as I could predict what would happen and unfortunately my fears have been confirmed. I couldn't believe how unbelievably short sighted it was by people who are paid ridiculous money to make these decisions.

I also agree that Kenny probably should have been given more time but I can understand and sympathise with the decision in a sense because he did waste a lot of money on shite players. A good scouting team/DoF and a change in mindset from Kenny himself would probably have been enough to rectify that particular problem though. I was constantly changing my mind at the time whether I wanted Kenny to stay or not, I'd be more in favour of him getting time now though, I do miss seeing him as our manager. Whether that's a sentimental or purely footballing based thing though I don't know.

I'm also getting tired of all the rhetoric and all this talk of the 'system' and whatnot is already getting fucking boring. I don't mind a discussion on footballing ideologies and 'philosophies' or whatever you else you want to label it as, but the almost inherent condescension that comes with people discussing 'tiki taka' is growing really tiresome.
 

ubermick

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[font=Helvetica Neue'][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]I'm scratching my head to think of how many people were actively calling for Kenny's head though, and demanding his sacking? I think the VAST majority of people on here fell into one of two categories: ADAMANTLY wanted Kenny to stay, or would like Kenny to stay, but could see why the plug was pulled. (Although maybe some were getting cheesed off at the way a couple of people were proclaiming Kenny to be basically infallible, and that nobody should DARE question him.)

In terms of Rafa, he made his own bed in many ways. Regardless of what he accomplished on the pitch, he was always fighting a losing battle with the owners. While I know a few lads in here are self employed or own their own business, speaking from the standpoint of someone who has an employer, I know damn well what would happen to me if I publicly went to war with my boss time and time again. It felt like he was starting to unravel, and more and more his focus seemed to be on political struggles than keeping his eyes on what he COULD control. And yep, for me I still have a hard time letting go over the whole Alonso saga. (No need to cite the excuses for that, I've heard them all a million times, nobody's convincing me.)

Regardless, those two men, while phenomenal servants to the club, are now in the past. Rightly or wrongly, the club moved on from them both, and now the task falls to Rodgers. Rafa was given years. Kenny was given a year and a half. Rodgers has had the job for four months. So yes, I think it's absolutely understandable that Rodgers be afforded some time.

As to criticism of him, it's absolutely understandable - it's not like the fella's getting everything right. But bear in mind the backlash many gave - including people in this very room - to those who dared criticise Rafa or Kenny, citing the fact that critics weren't Premiership managers, critics weren't proper supporters, and critics didn't know the full story about what went on behind the scenes.[/background]
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i_still_miss_fowler

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Talking about selective amnesia Mick, your must have forgotten the 50 odd page thread "How would you feel IF FSG acted and sacked Dalglish" ;) Or the two or three polls asking should Kenny be sacked (Hope doing them at separate times to capture change in moods)

There was most definitely a sizeable number of vocal fans that wanted Kenny sacked. Its how I first crossed swords with Howlingfantodd who was very vocal anti-kenny (and still is), there were several other american supporters (or perhaps just him :p) and a few other younger fans.

Granted it was not like when Hodgson was here when everyone wanted him gone, or Rafa where it was split down the middle. But half of fans could understand if the owners sacked him, my take was half of those actually wanted him sacked (Debates at the time was on the interpretation of the question asked ie do you want him sacked vs could you understand)

(why I remember this shit, god knows)


Whilst
citing the fact that critics weren't Premiership managers, critics weren't proper supporters, and critics didn't know the full story about what went on behind the scenes.
Is mostly true, it does not really reflect to context. Asking someone if they are a proper supporter, when they state trophies before they were born are "worthless" or similar idiotic comments, is very different to simply dismissing an argument in all encompassing way. Likewise we dont know the full story, was typically used as part of the argument for transfers, not a blanket use as used to defend Ayre from any blame, but to determine the level with Comolli of blame which continues to this day (ie not totally absolving him)

One thing I have learnt seeing 3 managers sacked, its not long standing LFC supporters you need to worry about, our ideals and values stay pretty consistent. My bet those who have no doubts, and completely behind the manager today, thinking there is never been a better time to be optimistic about or club will be the ones to turn when progress does not meet their expectations

Its better to be grounded see the good and bad, rather that think everything is hunky dory and success under Rodgers is only a matter of time.

Although what do I know, im not a football manager :p
 

lfc.eddie

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Few people said we should give Rogers until Xmas to even start to analyse what's going on.
There is never going to be a right time to analyse what is going on with a manager, but putting a time frame on it shows there are doubts in one's mind to begin with. I for one have always been judging the way a manager conduct himself, not only on the pitch but off it as well. One of the main reason I was hell bent on wanting Hodgson gone if I have the power to do so (well someone else has it and did it).

I judge Rodgers based on what he says to the media, about his philosophy and him "educating" players because you only train dogs. If we take that on a face value, then he should be the right guy to lead the way. But when you look at how he selected his players and how he slagged off some players in public, it doesn't really show that he is a good man manager.

No matter how bad a player can be, the worst thing that could happen to him during the days of Rafa and Kenny would be cold storage. Be it political reasoning (when player tends to disagree with what you do too much) or ability reasons, the players will be sidelined and everyone would know he is as good as gone. To come out and slate a player, granted some needed a bit of a kick in the butt, is something a man who seems to like to educate he players should never do. Then coupled with that Being Liverpool documentary which doesn't really help Rodgers' image one bit.

To me, it is amazing as how a manager is being supported these days. I believe Rodgers do love the game, wants to implement that pleasing on the eye passing game, and of course wants to lead the team to win the league or trophies. Which manager doesn't? But the way he was being touted as the next best thing since slice bread by some fans validate this thread existence. It is amazing how some people would ridicule past managers who brought us so much joy, and throw the kitchen sink to support someone who has 180 pages of write up on his CV.
 

Arminius

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I'd have to agree with the 'selective amnesia' comment - from about February onward there was a steady drumbeat of discontent directed at Kenny, with an equally steady stream of bans. By the end, I would have to say at least a rough third of posters were 'anti-Kenny', maybe a similar number 'pro-Kenny', and then a middle split between the 'see why it happened' sentiment and 'deserved one more season with changes'. But the poles absolutely dominated sentiment, and frankly, I think they still do. The forum took an ugly turn last season and has yet to recover.

I don't know why I remember this shit either.
 
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ubermick

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Mate, you named a few fellas there, and I can't argue with it. But you're still talking about a half dozen, or maybe stretch it to a dozen posters out of a site with thousands of members. (I know not all participated in the poll obviously, but we still had pushing 200 respondents to that one). I don't remember it with the detail you do, but the SERIOUS majority of the posters - and I'm talking about 80% or more - either fell into the "I'd be furious" or "I'd be upset, but suppose could understand it if it happened" camps.

Do agree that it took an ugly turn, and we ended up seeing the same sort of thing we saw with Rafa. Where there was a very small few in the "He's shit, he should go" camp, a small amount in the "He's the messiah and can do no wrong, how dare you question him" camp, and the vast majority in the middle, leaning slightly one way or the other. But as forums do, everything got polarized, and it ended up being for many "you're either with us or against us." Same thing seems to have happened here, despite us all being in the same boat, really.

The difference then was that we had the cowboy cunts to direct our furore at. This time the disappointed people (not all, some) seem to be lashing out left and right, decrying anyone who dares speak the words "Signing downing was a bit stupid though, wasn't it?" as tarnishing Kenny's legacy, and analyzing every single move the owners and Ayre made in the aftermath. That's the sort of stuff that really bothers me about it, there just seems to be no way to have a rational conversation with some about it. As I've said elsewhere, the notion of "If the owners sack Kenny, the war is back on" shite that rained around twitter, and even the comments of some on here who have basically said that they're not going to give the owners a fair shake after sacking him... just makes it hugely difficult to see the bigger picture.
 

liveforthereds

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Time a good question, just how much time do you give a manager before you pull the trigger,

For me it does depend on where you are in the table, if you are in the bottom and looking to go down then yes a change of gaffer is possably the only thing a Chairman can do, But and this is the thing when you look back through the years which clubs have had the best success in genral the clubs who have stuck by the manager through thick and thin are the teams that have had the best success, continuity is also an ingredant to sucess.

Liverpool brought in Shanks and it was not stright away he brought trophys to Liverpool it was a good few years before it happened but the board backed him, Busby over at Utd the same. Then when Shanks steped down we went with Continuity, Utd did not and the two clubs went down differant paths. Liverpool went on to domonate where Utd choped and changed and ended up in what was then the 2nd tier.

Then came along Fergie nearly sacked after being in the job a few years but the board stuck with him and look at what the have done since, we on the other hand seems to loose are way after Kenny left the first time and have since not had the kind of sucess we could have had. Arsenal can be said the same they maynot have won much over the last few years but they have always been in the mix and other than Utd have qualified for the CL for most of not all the time since the first qualifed.

One thing in commen clubs who stick with a manager tend to better than those who don't. Even Chelsea have not had that much sucess compared to the money spent, the Tinker man laid the foundation and was sacked in favour of the special one who all though did not win the CL did give them sucess since then they have choped and changed and spent a lot of money.

Same can be said for City they have spent shed loads of money to get to the postion they are in now, they have changed a few times but they stuck by the current manager who is delivering sucess. Time is the comodity clubs and fans don't give to managers and yet it shows unless you give time then you will struggle, yes a having a shed load of money may help but it still takes time.
 

Sweeting

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Regarding Rafa; end of the day I think Rafa had to leave. Not because of results, but literally for his own well being.

War with the owners had taken its toll. He still looks fatigued now.
 

lfc.eddie

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Regarding Rafa; end of the day I think Rafa had to leave. Not because of results, but literally for his own well being.

War with the owners had taken its toll. He still looks fatigued now.
One of the the many reasons why he is highly regarded still in the supporters group.... well at least in here.
 

Hope in your heart

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[font=Helvetica Neue'][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]
(...)

Its better to be grounded see the good and bad, rather that think everything is hunky dory and success under Rodgers is only a matter of time. (...)
Completely agree with this. It does my head in that errors comitted by managers seem immediately sack-worthy to some people.

Let's take Rafa: his infights with g+h took their toll on him, and indeed, with hindsight, he could have handled this better, as well as his spats with Parry, and then with Purslow. I have a serious beef with him about how he handled some player issues: almost singlehandedly convincing Alonso that his future was elsewhere, driving first Warnock, and then Riise out of the club and starting off a perennial left-back crisis at the club, driving several promising youngsters out of the club before they could show what they were worth for us (Hamill among many others), generally not giving enough chances to youth players, being sometimes tactically rigid and not going for the jugular when it was obvious that plan A wasn't working and a draw wasn't enough for us to keep pace in the league (thinking about a few games in that 08-09 season which were driving all of us mad). Etc. etc. He was far from perfect. Did I think he deserved the sack though? No, never. He was a big enough man to correct his errors and progress. I still miss him and those last years have proven how much we miss his experience and tactical nous at the club.

As for Kenny, it's the same: he made errors in the transfer market, he froze out more than decent players in Maxi and Kuyt, and seemed to struggle towards the end of last season. But as with Rafa, he didn't deserve the sack, because he's a big man who is able to learn from his own mistakes. His sacking is even worse than Rafa's, because Rafa had at least some time to forge his project, and enjoyed some great success with his team. Kenny didn't come that far. His project was destroyed before it could come to fruition.

What makes my blood boil about this, is that I can clearly see how sacking him weakened us terribly, just when the club was about to find some stability again, after the woeful and destructive Hodgson-spell. The owners threw us back into turmoil. They surely thought they wanted to do as well as possible, but in reality, they started off a costly and time-consuming turn-around, both at coaching and player positions. I'm quite sure they didn't expect to see that much turn-around, and the look on Ayre's and Werner's exhausted faces when presenting BR to the media was a clear sign that they weren't as happy as they pretended to be, and that they had to cope with much more negative side-effects than they would have expected.[/background]
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[font=Helvetica Neue'][background=rgb(255, 255, 255)]Liveforthereds is spot on. Time is the most valuable item. It is not only precious, but also vital for any credible project. Everytime you sack a gaffer, the club is thrown back and loses valuable time. In my humble opinion, it's way better to settle for a good gaffer with acceptable credentials (both Rafa and Kenny had this in aboundance), accept his unavoidable shortcomings, and then let the man do his work for a good chunk of time.

My view (a conservative one, I know), is that five/six years is the absolute minimum to see if a manager can fulfil his project or not.[/background]
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