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amazingly.....

DEVGRU

Banned for the umpteenth time
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And we are still paying the price. The owners did not last long, neither did Purslow. I only wish Rafa had.
I wish that too but you know, that last season...nothing went right for him...the team were inconsistent, were struggling to score and win games, Torres was lost at sea, Lucas was getting slaughtered by supporters and it was a one man army show for Rafa v the owners.
 

1988greatestteam

Wishing for number 6
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rafa benitez won the biggest prize in club football in his first year at LFC, a year later and he returned the FA cup to the clubs coffers, he also has in his CV at this club probably our best shot at winning the league since sky invented football.

Kenny Dalglish was and is a club legend, had us playing some fantastic football before leveling off a fair bit, won our first trophy since the 2006 FA cup mentioned before, and had won leagues championships with us previously....

so.....

amazingly, Dalglish and Rafa were not afforded patience by fans and club officials, despite a proven track record, yet Rodgers needs to be given time, regardless of results, to implement his style....its at least a 3 year plan, yet rafa was sacked within 4 years of actually achieving something....

so apparently passing sideways and walking forward is more important than winning stuff......

am i slagging off rodgers? yeah, a bit, but the point i make is, are we getting bogged down with rhetoric and future driven promise over actually doing what counts?...ie winning trophies?

has our approach become too scientific, that retaining possesion is more important than winning games, because at some point in the future keeping possession will win us games?????
Jaysus your a very hard task master. Brendan Rodgers has had "20 games" in charge and you want a trophy. Its this type of madness that infects a club supporters. Give the man some time, we are playing decent football just not converting the chances, and I believe this will come with a run of good wins and some confidence.
 

The Elusive 19th

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I genuinely think we need to wait two years before we judge this tenure.

I know that's a decent amount of time and people are going to be reluctant to wait that long but that's what we have to do. Let's remember Rodgers is basically a rookie manager, we have a team that is full of players who are either old (Gerrard, Carragher...), shit (Downing, Cole...) or young (Sterling, Borini...) - we have maybe two world class players in Agger and Suarez. We are only 17 games into Rodgers tenure, hasn't been an amazing start, but it was never going to be with the fixtures we have.

It took Swansea three managers and seven years to become the footballing side they are now - we can't expect to do it in 3 months.
In terms of playing style(tiki-taka) in England, Swansea is a scale against which we are going to measure ourselves. Since tiki-taka needs a very different kind of player than what we already have.

We need to wait 7 years to play good styled Tiki-taka. We may have to wait for 3/4 windows to make sure that we have at least some players of the required type and at the same time span our youngsters will have matured also.

But Swansea is not the scale against which we should measure ourselves since our ambitions and theirs couldn't be much different. We are trying to get out of the pit and reclaim our perch - at least thats what all us fans want us to do.

And this makes the process of implementing the philosophy all the more difficult since we can't loose a lot. This is why i believe we are still seeing the long balls and direct plays even after this much time of Rodgers.

Rafa was not sacked by FSG and if we really want to compare it has to be Kenny's tenure. The actual plan of FSG about Football or any sport as a matter of fact - i believe is sell-sustainability - in a nutshell Moneyball signings at initial few years (and then with added revenue streams some high profile signings)

Kenny/Comoli never gave FSG moneyball signings. I believe with Kenny's performance in the initial 6 months, he must have assured FSG of a top 4 finish and if possible a close title challenge and FSG must have been sold out to the idea. He once/twice said something about title challenge in interviews.

But when Kenny failed to deliver the promises made, FSG went back to their concept of moneyball signings and hence BR and so many changes at all levels.

And since its going to their favorite approach - moneyball, i believe BR will be given some more time than Kenny even if BR doesn't deliver all the promises.

I believe that Kenny was a little out of touch and Comoli screwed big time and bloody hell - the King needed some more time - a season.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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Jaysus your a very hard task master. Brendan Rodgers has had "20 games" in charge and you want a trophy. Its this type of madness that infects a club supporters. Give the man some time, we are playing decent football just not converting the chances, and I believe this will come with a run of good wins and some confidence.
it only takes six games to win the world cup, whats he dilly dallying for......
 

Never Say Never

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Look I feel like, myself, redbj, Dane, ISMF, and to a lesser extent hope are getting painted like we're leading the Rodgers out! campaign, which isn't true.

But there's nothing wrong with not being totally sold on him. How are you all so sure he IS the right guy for the job? He may or he may not be out of his depth and his tactics might not adapt. Or he could be a world beater. We'll support him, of course. We're just not drinking the Rodgers kool-aid yet.
 

lancashirelad

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Chart shows Luis's contribution to Liverpool this season, and where we'd be without him...​

I believe if Luis was to get injured in any serious way, grown men and diehard LFC fans the world over would be reduced to sheer frustration with our owners and manager​

There would be mass condemnation of the FSGs transfer policy, which has us in this sorry state of praying that nothing harmful happens to our Luis at any time this season.​

Obviously the table is slightly misleading because if Luis was not playing, somebody else would be, BUT WHO ????, and they may have scored a goal or two, so we may not be rock bottom, but the situation would still be dire.​


Will anyone really arrive in January that will actually help this situation?????.​
 

RedSeven

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Look I feel like, myself, redbj, Dane, ISMF, and to a lesser extent hope are getting painted like we're leading the Rodgers out! campaign, which isn't true.

But there's nothing wrong with not being totally sold on him. How are you all so sure he IS the right guy for the job? He may or he may not be out of his depth and his tactics might not adapt. Or he could be a world beater. We'll support him, of course. We're just not drinking the Rodgers kool-aid yet.
With only about 1% of the vote in the summer,i'm surprised so many seem to be sure he is the right man for the job.He hasn't got us playing better than how swansea were last season,on which that 1% would have been based,but everyone has the right to have their own opinion and it seems that quite a lot have changed that opinion since the poll during the summer,either that or a lot on here now didn't take part in the poll.
My opinion is given time and money he will see us right within the medium term(2-3 yrs).If he not given decent money it'll take longer.
 

LFC-Orlando

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Look I feel like, myself, redbj, Dane, ISMF, and to a lesser extent hope are getting painted like we're leading the Rodgers out! campaign, which isn't true....
Glad you didn't list me. I support and question Brendan.

Just like I supported and questoned KK.

Just like I supported and questioned Rafa.

Just like I supported and questioned GH.
 

Prolix

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Against Newcastle, a long hopeful punt from Enrique, and an unlikely individual exploit from Suarez rescued us a point.

Against Reading, Sterling scored from a direct, defence-splitting pass from Suarez through the middle.

So much about 'tiki-taka'. We haven't scored many goals actually playing like that. There was one against WBA (Suso, Assaidi, Sahin if I remember well). The rest has always been resulting from much more direct actions, or from dead ball situations.
No offense, but if that is the conclusion you draw from those situations, then you at a fundamental level fail to understand the footballing philosophy Rodgers is building.

'Tiki-taka' (can we stop using this fucking expression?) isn't some anal retentive, obsessed, blinkered insistence on only possession and passing the ball 5 yards. A major component of the approach is the idea that a.) you can pass the ball faster than a defender can run, and b.) patient play draws out a defense which can then suddenly and intentionally be exploited by bursts of direct play. Being more selective of when to play long balls by no means indicates that whenever we do so we're going against what Rodgers wants. Yet many people cite instances of longer-ball goals as somehow 'disproving' our tactical approach or invalidating Rodgers as a manager.

The fact that anyone can look at our squad this season and expect to be competitive is beyond me. Seriously, what the fuck did you people expect from this season? We're playing a bunch of unexperienced teenagers half the time. Every game where we struggle to score people go and complain in the post-match thread as if they somehow expect Rodgers to come up with a magical way of our poor squad to turn things around. We all know things aren't going to improve until at least January, yet we place expectations on every single game from now until then. It's madness.

At some point we all need to get on board and go along with Rodgers' assertion that learning to control the game will lead to success. If we agree that this goal will in fact bring us success, then our lack of results in the immediate future will be the price we pay. But people who are expecting Rodgers to become super pragmatic are missing the entire point of what he's trying to do, which is internalising into our squad a certain way of playing. Tito Vilanova's comments after the loss to Celtic were illuminating:

"The conclusion is that we have to keep coming out and playing the same way, come out like we did today, have chances, persist and try right up until the end, being at all times recognizable as a team. I don't like to lose, but I prefer to lose this way."

Until we reach that level of commitment, we will struggle. And that takes time.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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dont really see the point in this thread?
post number 20 should shed some light.

credit to the forums for some of the decent debate though, and that, within itself, means the thread is not pointless.

loosen up a bit, its only the bloody internet.
 

SoueysTash

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post number 20 should shed some light.

credit to the forums for some of the decent debate though, and that, within itself, means the thread is not pointless.

loosen up a bit, its only the bloody internet.
Ah...I'm 4 pints of cider in this eve, I probably need more ;-)
 

TFC

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Yet many people cite instances of longer-ball goals as somehow 'disproving' our tactical approach or invalidating Rodgers as a manager.
I like this point right here.

Something thats been clear to me recently is that no one has any clue what kind of manager Rodgers is. We all have made assumptions, but none of us have followed his career enough to know what he really wants with any certainty.

There has been a lot of harping about how Rodgers only plays a certain formation, and when discussing player purchases or even predicting starting lineups there has been a lot of "Are you serious? Rodgers would never play that formation (or buy that player) - he only uses this formation (or this kind of striker)." Its been made so clear that no one has a clue as to what Rodgers really wants.

When long balls have been played I haven't seen Rodgers shaking his head or muttering under his breath about it. I don't think he cares if players play a proper/intelligent longball. All we really know is he wants the players to be patient and wait for that opening, and until it arrives to keep passing it - even if its sideways or backwards - until that opening comes. Beyond the fact that we know he wants to be patient (something he's said) none of us have watched Rodgers enough to know much of anything about his style or preference or anything else.
 

lfc55555

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No offense, but if that is the conclusion you draw from those situations, then you at a fundamental level fail to understand the footballing philosophy Rodgers is building.

'Tiki-taka' (can we stop using this fucking expression?) isn't some anal retentive, obsessed, blinkered insistence on only possession and passing the ball 5 yards. A major component of the approach is the idea that a.) you can pass the ball faster than a defender can run, and b.) patient play draws out a defense which can then suddenly and intentionally be exploited by bursts of direct play. Being more selective of when to play long balls by no means indicates that whenever we do so we're going against what Rodgers wants. Yet many people cite instances of longer-ball goals as somehow 'disproving' our tactical approach or invalidating Rodgers as a manager.

The fact that anyone can look at our squad this season and expect to be competitive is beyond me. Seriously, what the fuck did you people expect from this season? We're playing a bunch of unexperienced teenagers half the time. Every game where we struggle to score people go and complain in the post-match thread as if they somehow expect Rodgers to come up with a magical way of our poor squad to turn things around. We all know things aren't going to improve until at least January, yet we place expectations on every single game from now until then. It's madness.

At some point we all need to get on board and go along with Rodgers' assertion that learning to control the game will lead to success. If we agree that this goal will in fact bring us success, then our lack of results in the immediate future will be the price we pay. But people who are expecting Rodgers to become super pragmatic are missing the entire point of what he's trying to do, which is internalising into our squad a certain way of playing. Tito Vilanova's comments after the loss to Celtic were illuminating:

"The conclusion is that we have to keep coming out and playing the same way, come out like we did today, have chances, persist and try right up until the end, being at all times recognizable as a team. I don't like to lose, but I prefer to lose this way."

Until we reach that level of commitment, we will struggle. And that takes time.
i think many too have to understand that we havent hired pepe guardiola. this is what baffles me at times.

we have manager who prior to last season was managing in the championship division. that fact eludes people at times.

ian holloways philosophy is pass and move. in fact many managers in the premiership talk about pass and move and thats how they want their players to play. but adopting a pass and move style of play, even mark hughes often talks about it, doesnt mean given enough time theyll be able to play like liverpool of the 80's. its just talk.

rodgers isnt coming from barcelona to teach us how to play, he and all his backroom staff have come from swansea after 1 year in the premier league. yet that reality is consistently being brushed aside.
 

Prolix

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To recap:
  • Rodgers is facing an even weaker squad than Dalglish had to work with (although the core of the XI still largely preserved) and significantly less financial backing to rebuild than Kenny was afforded (for obvious reasons). Outside of that core, he has essentially burnt the squad to the ground and had to spread his resources thin to begin constructing a healthier, younger side that can play to the level that is required. One thing for which he has not been given enough credit, in my opinion, was his rebuild of our midfield. People concentrate on our problems in attack, but he changed our midfield almost entirely because he decided that it was in the biggest need of tweaking to his needs. I agree with that assessment.
  • With that bare thin squad, he is at the same time trying to implement a tactical approach more demanding than we have played since perhaps Rafa's days at the club. There are superficial similarities to what Kenny was trying to do, but I do not think they are as pervasive as has been suggested. Despite needing to really ingrain an automatic way of playing into his players, many are suggesting that Rodgers should more or less abandon or postpone this project for the sake of immediate results. I quite simply don't understand why delaying the inevitable transformation would be a good thing for the club. We were never going to be competitive this season, so why not work out as many kinks as we can while it doesn't matter if we're inconsistent?
  • Nothing is going to change until January at the earliest. As hard as Rodgers works on improving our attacking play, we have a very harsh upper limit on our effectiveness because of our shortage of good options up top. This was undoubtedly a major problem with our summer transfer window, but we look set to emphatically deal with it. Until then, though, why don't we all chill the fuck out and see how much better the team can get with Rodgers' ideas instead of asking altogether too much of them?
  • I've said it before: the key to this tactical approach is belief in the system. Rodgers has to teach our players not to panic, not to break from the plan, but to keep doing what he tells them to even if it seems like we're bashing our head against the wall. As long as we believe, eventually the results will come. But they will not come without that belief. Simple as.
In other words: there are far too many confounding factors at the moment for it to be fair to judge Rodgers in a general sense. I am a critic of a number of his team selections/arrangements and don't think he has done enough to implement the style. But that doesn't mean I am ready to throw him under the bus. It also doesn't mean I'm convinced that he's right for us. But I'm definitely going to give him time to show that he is. We really don't have another choice.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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i think many too have to understand that we havent hired pepe guardiola. this is what baffles me at times.

we have manager who prior to last season was managing in the championship division. that fact eludes people at times.

ian holloways philosophy is pass and move. in fact many managers in the premiership talk about pass and move and thats how they want their players to play. but adopting a pass and move style of play, even mark hughes often talks about it, doesnt mean given enough time theyll be able to play like liverpool of the 80's. its just talk.

rodgers isnt coming from barcelona to teach us how to play, he and all his backroom staff have come from swansea after 1 year in the premier league. yet that reality is consistently being brushed aside.
good debating point that.

is this something we actually should take into account?, if so, then rich is 100% spot on.

Rodgers should be judged by our expectations(the clubs, not the forums, which can be admittedly a bit off the radar), not our expectations lowered by his inexperience.

at least, thats the way a successful club should be run in my eyes.

great point to debate though, well worthy of its own thread.
 

steve10

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The Jan transfer window and the subsequent summer window will determine whether we will progress with Rodgers at the helm. FSG off course have to put their hands deep into their pockets because the squad is very thin and it is clear that if Rodgers had his way- Hendo, Downing, Carroll, Enrique, Cole and 1-2 others in the first team squad would be on their way.

Out of Rodgers 2 major buys my personal opinion is that 11mill was wasted on Borini as I dont think he will make the grade. Allen is a good player but he wasnt a priority in my opinion and that money could have been spent on a striker.
 

TFC

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Rodgers should be judged by our expectations(the clubs, not the forums, which can be admittedly a bit off the radar), not our expectations lowered by his inexperience.
Your right that we shouldn't be judging him by any lowered expectations at all, but rather by our expectations but we have to judge him by our expectations given what he has at his disposal.

Our expectations of him as a manager handling the transfer window without a DoF (his own demand) with one of the higher budgets in the league, something that fell short of most of our expectations.

Then there is our expectations of him as a manager of the squad itself, where we have to take into account the squad when developing our expectations. Its not enough to say "We're LFC so we should win, Rodgers isn't winning to he's not meeting my expectation", but rather we have to look at what realistic expectations we could have on any manager going into a season with the lack of depth in our front 3 that we have - and then hold Rodgers to the highest of the realistic expectations one could have given the current situation, because we want the best.
 

lfc.eddie

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Your right that we shouldn't be judging him by any lowered expectations at all, but rather by our expectations but we have to judge him by our expectations given what he has at his disposal.

Our expectations of him as a manager handling the transfer window without a DoF (his own demand) with one of the higher budgets in the league, something that fell short of most of our expectations.
As you said though, in his own demand. If he does not shoulder the blame then there nobody else in the club should be taking on the criticism thrown at them, be it the media, pundit or fans. Fact is, he asked for no middle man, he asked to have full control, again, much like Rafa with everything under the sun of the club, should shoulder all the blame that the squad is thin.
 
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TFC

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As you said though, in his own demand. If he does not shoulder the blame then there nobody else in the club should be taking on the criticism thrown at them, be it the media, pundit or fans. Fact is, he asked for no middle man, he asked to have full control, again, much like Rafa with everything under the sun of the club, should shoulder all the blame that the squad is thin.
Yeah your right. I just mean to say its a separate issue when we're judging how he manages games and/or the season, and when we are considering how he handles matches we should consider the squad itself when developing our own expectations.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
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Your right that we shouldn't be judging him by any lowered expectations at all, but rather by our expectations but we have to judge him by our expectations given what he has at his disposal.

Our expectations of him as a manager handling the transfer window without a DoF (his own demand) with one of the higher budgets in the league, something that fell short of most of our expectations.

Then there is our expectations of him as a manager of the squad itself, where we have to take into account the squad when developing our expectations. Its not enough to say "We're LFC so we should win, Rodgers isn't winning to he's not meeting my expectation", but rather we have to look at what realistic expectations we could have on any manager going into a season with the lack of depth in our front 3 that we have - and then hold Rodgers to the highest of the realistic expectations one could have given the current situation, because we want the best.
i really dont think you needed to add all of this stuff, it kinda goes without saying that our expectations should be graded.i dont think i gave the impression that 'Rogers shud win da league man cos we iz LFC YNWA dood' which is what your virtually saying here.

but they're still higher than 12th in the league (after half a season or so, i think thats acceptable), i cant emphasise that enough.
 

TFC

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i really dont think you needed to add all of this stuff, it kinda goes without saying that our expectations should be graded.i dont think i gave the impression that 'Rogers shud win da league man cos we iz LFC YNWA dood' which is what your virtually saying here.
I don't think I implied that you said that either...
 

lfc55555

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Your right that we shouldn't be judging him by any lowered expectations at all, but rather by our expectations but we have to judge him by our expectations given what he has at his disposal.

Our expectations of him as a manager handling the transfer window without a DoF (his own demand) with one of the higher budgets in the league, something that fell short of most of our expectations.

Then there is our expectations of him as a manager of the squad itself, where we have to take into account the squad when developing our expectations. Its not enough to say "We're LFC so we should win, Rodgers isn't winning to he's not meeting my expectation", but rather we have to look at what realistic expectations we could have on any manager going into a season with the lack of depth in our front 3 that we have - and then hold Rodgers to the highest of the realistic expectations one could have given the current situation, because we want the best.
i could put mark hughes in charge of us and say our expectations are low this season so things are fine. having low expectations and then having those low expectations met, doesnt prove anything.
 

LFC-Orlando

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I think if we took the "amazingly" thread and merged it with the "Brendan" thread we would witness some type of chemical reaction or discover a new breakthrough drug for intoxicated LFC supporters.
 

TFC

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i could put mark hughes in charge of us and say our expectations are low this season so things are fine. having low expectations and then having those low expectations met, doesnt prove anything.
I don't understand the point your trying to make.
 

lfc55555

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I don't understand the point your trying to make.
if your CV is weak you need to hit the ground running. if you dont have the pedigree, titles, experience to back you up, simply not doing that great doesnt show anything significant.
 

lfc.eddie

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if your CV is weak you need to hit the ground running. if you dont have the pedigree, titles, experience to back you up, simply not doing that great doesnt show anything significant.
Well it is a tough task for him to live up if you ask me. Rafa and Kenny holds the accolades only Ferguson can safely say he is better than these two. Wenger may have been better than Rafa in terms of league trophies, but far off without any Europe triumph. It is hard to argue when he brought us into 2 finals in 3 years, and Kenny with his past glory. Rodgers will never live up to that sort of standard right away.

I think the problem is because of the hype that was build around the man that makes his job harder. His constant preaching of his philosophy and the media keep rehashing it, coupled with that documentary focusing on him, does not help him one bit. Apart from him being adamant of his methods which bears very little fruit now, the firing of a legend and him replacing the man, to top it off the results not coming his way, make his job more or less impossible.

That said, he should also take on some of the shit that we are going through. His insistent of having full control and not bringing in a seasoned goal scorer (not dempsey, mind you), slating players publicly as a manager of the club and now talking about how thin our squad is just makes it worse.
 
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