• This website uses cookies. More information.
  • The This Is Anfield Forums community is moving to a new home. Click here for more information on the transition.

amazingly.....

lfc55555

TIA First Team
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
2,253
if you want to prove youre good enough youve got to do more than meeting low expectations. otherwise not just the fans but the players too will have their doubts.
 

wembley 65

TIA Youth Team
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
396
does anyone even remember that "bucks" mentor was easily the best manager in the world bar none? and mourinho personally recommended him for the liverpool job!!
 

i_still_miss_fowler

Open Your Eyes Morty!
Moderator
Joined
Jun 23, 2005
Messages
7,750
No offense, but if that is the conclusion you draw from those situations, then you at a fundamental level fail to understand the footballing philosophy Rodgers is building.

'Tiki-taka' (can we stop using this fucking expression?) isn't some anal retentive, obsessed, blinkered insistence on only possession and passing the ball 5 yards. A major component of the approach is the idea that a.) you can pass the ball faster than a defender can run, and b.) patient play draws out a defense which can then suddenly and intentionally be exploited by bursts of direct play. Being more selective of when to play long balls by no means indicates that whenever we do so we're going against what Rodgers wants. Yet many people cite instances of longer-ball goals as somehow 'disproving' our tactical approach or invalidating Rodgers as a manager.

The fact that anyone can look at our squad this season and expect to be competitive is beyond me. Seriously, what the fuck did you people expect from this season? We're playing a bunch of unexperienced teenagers half the time. Every game where we struggle to score people go and complain in the post-match thread as if they somehow expect Rodgers to come up with a magical way of our poor squad to turn things around. We all know things aren't going to improve until at least January, yet we place expectations on every single game from now until then. It's madness.

At some point we all need to get on board and go along with Rodgers' assertion that learning to control the game will lead to success. If we agree that this goal will in fact bring us success, then our lack of results in the immediate future will be the price we pay. But people who are expecting Rodgers to become super pragmatic are missing the entire point of what he's trying to do, which is internalising into our squad a certain way of playing. Tito Vilanova's comments after the loss to Celtic were illuminating:

"The conclusion is that we have to keep coming out and playing the same way, come out like we did today, have chances, persist and try right up until the end, being at all times recognizable as a team. I don't like to lose, but I prefer to lose this way."

Until we reach that level of commitment, we will struggle. And that takes time.

Just thought I would put a few stats out there:

Average Possession
Rafas last season 09/10 - 58%
Kenny's last season 11/12 56%
Rodgers so far 11/12 57%

These stats should make it clear to anyone that controlling possession does not win matches. It also shows Rodgers has not brought some huge shift in our approach in the aspect of controlling the game more than we ever did in the past.

Granted most teams that win matches have a higher possession stats, as Rodgers has stated himself in justifying his system. Someone said the other day, say its been proved that possession brings better results........... yet is possession really what causes better results, or simply something that correlates ?

I am sure you could probably say, the team that wins the most corners, wins the most matches. Sure corners correlate, but no one would argue for the vast majority of teams thats their reason for success, its a side effect of being the more attacking team. Likewise possession, are Barca successful because of their system, or because they have the worlds best players ? Are United, Chelsea and City near the top of possession stats because of their style of play, or because they have the better players and dominate the opposition ?

Now there is nothing wrong with believing in a philosophy , but for me player talent should always come first a system second. Chelsea,Milan and even the mighty Celtic clearly illustrate the flaws of relying too heavily upon a philosophy, as even the best players in the world can be beaten if your too rigid in your approach. Whilst we are not Barcelona the flaws in their philispohy mirror our own (except we dont have nearly the same talent). What happens, when the opposition defense isn't drawn out by tika-taka ? How many teams in our league especially away from home are happy to adopt a British long ball approach, happy to sit deep let you have the ball and force you out wide, knowing their CBs can handle crosses to your short attackers ?

Slow patient attack, drawing out the opposition may work if they expect to have the ball, want themselves to play passing football but many teams do not get frustrated are well organised, like to use their physical advantage and have no problem using long balls on the counter eg Stoke, Sunderland etc or even Everton and WBA to an extent.

Dare I say even the team the Liverpool team that won the CL.

You quote Tito

"The conclusion is that we have to keep coming out and playing the same way, come out like we did today, have chances, persist and try right up until the end, being at all times recognizable as a team. I don't like to lose, but I prefer to lose this way."


The problem is the belief that the way they play is "the right way" as if others are less valid or not becoming of Barca. Whilst it may not be pretty on the eye I have as much respect for the battling qualities, the determination, the organisation the tactical chess that Rafa played to help us win the CL, as I do the Barclonia approach. Personal opinion I know but I would rather play the "wrong way" and win, than play the "right way" and lose.

Which bring us on to being competitive, now in other threads we are told again and again Carroll, Adam, Spearing, Maxi Kuyt etc are no big loss, as they didnt contribute much scoring what 8 goals (or some other low stat)......So why complain ? We are constantly told they would not make much of a difference. Yet on the other hand we are told we should expect to do worse, not have the same expectations as last year despite spending another 30M :scratch: How does that add up ? Investment + "older players replaced with better youngsters" but expect to finish worse than a disappointing season with Kenny? We cant have it both ways.

This rant will be seen as anti-Rodgers, but while some can put faith in a system, its far too ideological for me with not enough experience to results to back it up.
 

TFC

TIA Squad Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2011
Messages
7,464
if your CV is weak you need to hit the ground running. if you dont have the pedigree, titles, experience to back you up, simply not doing that great doesnt show anything significant.
So your opinion is that the squad at hand makes no difference? Thats an interesting perspective but I can't agree at all with it.
 

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts.
Admin
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
24,408
(...)

Rodgers is facing an even weaker squad than Dalglish had to work with

(...)
Had Kenny stayed put, we wouldn't look at this problem.

That present situation is of his own choice, even though fsg/Ayre seem to have had their word as well... don't you agree that he deserves a part of the blame? He made the choice to shift several senior players elsewhere, and rely more on the youngsters.

It's something I for one can understand looking at it from a broader point of view, but there should be no complaints from him then, just go on when shit hits the fan, and don't complain about lack of squad depth. He has to lie down in the bed he prepared for himself, that's the destiny of any gaffer in the world. I didn't hear Kenny complain about a lack of squad depth last season.

Hopefully BR can adress some of his own errors in the next transfer windows. I'm quietly confident he will. In the same way I was sure that Kenny would adress the problems facing his project. The key word being 'time', or 'not enough time'.
 

mogggg

TIA Squad Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
620
Rafa had terrible owners to deal with. How much he left and how much he was forced out is still much debated, and that is certainly something which I look back on with regret.

Kenny had the problem which a number of managers have conquered, but unfortunately for FSG, was a bridge to far with the poor showing in the league - I think they ultimately saw him as being too old to really turn the club around. They wanted someone younger, who could implement his vision and spend years in charge. If Rodgers fails, so be it, but my impression was that they're all about the long term, and that's why Kenny, in spite of all performances, was never going to be given long enough to bring the club full circle.

But I find the tone of this thread somewhat strange. We all acknowledge the problems facing BR with a thin squad, and we all appreciate that it will take time for him to implement his vision. We know it will take time for him to get the right players and we know it will take time for the club to rebuild. So why are we jumping on his back after less than a third of the season in the job? Everyone wants to make comparisons between past and present, but unfortunately this is the way it is now. There's no shame in that, I personally think that BR has the knowledge and understanding of the game to make a telling difference at this football club. It's going to take time though, and if it doesn't work, at least we'll have given it a run... Something about loyalty and patience ;)
 

Never Say Never

FSG are the iluminati
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
2,860
Kenny had Paul Konchesky, Christian Poulsen, Milan Jovanavic, and Phillip Deggen in his squad. Your argument is invalid.
 

Quagmire81

TIA Regular
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
6,815
Kenny had Paul Konchesky, Christian Poulsen, Milan Jovanavic, and Phillip Deggen in his squad. Your argument is invalid.
To be fair he also had a shit load of money to build his own side, which became his downfall. Ironicly he actually had better results with hodgson's guys in the squad than his own.
 

Never Say Never

FSG are the iluminati
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
2,860
To be fair he also had a shit load of money to build his own side, which became his downfall. Ironicly he actually had better results with hodgson's guys in the squad than his own.
It was more Rafa's guys, tbh. None of those worthless sacks saw much time under Kenny. I forgot to add cole to that list.

Actually the majority of the players that are still are top players were brought here by Rafa. Even three years out. (Lucas, Agger, Skrtel, Glen, Pepe, and he molded Stevie into a more complete player). Hell even Suso and Shelvey were Rafa buys. Hmmmm
 

Quagmire81

TIA Regular
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
6,815
It was more Rafa's guys, tbh. None of those worthless sacks saw much time under Kenny. I forgot to add cole to that list.

Actually the majority of the players that are still are top players were brought here by Rafa. Even three years out. (Lucas, Agger, Skrtel, Glen, Pepe, and he molded Stevie into a more complete player). Hell even Suso and Shelvey were Rafa buys. Hmmmm
True true, our spine is still rafa's boys no doubt, not the same spine he won his trophys with but still. You could say both Roy and Kenny failed to build on that. Only player Roy actually bought I still wish were here is Meireles hmmm didn't he also buy Suarez now I'm thinking about it. Anyway Roy had to go, kenny not so sure but he put his trust in the wrong players, the ones he bought that is, guess the owners either knew or guessed that he would continue doing so, and got rid.
I still think it's way too early to make any conclusion on rodgers, some good thing and bad things, let's see if he can make up for the bad things in the next reansfer window before we go all roy on him.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
26,632
With only about 1% of the vote in the summer,i'm surprised so many seem to be sure he is the right man for the job.He hasn't got us playing better than how swansea were last season,on which that 1% would have been based,but everyone has the right to have their own opinion and it seems that quite a lot have changed that opinion since the poll during the summer,either that or a lot on here now didn't take part in the poll.
My opinion is given time and money he will see us right within the medium term(2-3 yrs).If he not given decent money it'll take longer.
That poll is not really worth interpreting that way. Klopp was my number one choice, so I voted that way. Rodgers was my second.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
26,632
rodgers isnt coming from barcelona to teach us how to play, he and all his backroom staff have come from swansea after 1 year in the premier league. yet that reality is consistently being brushed aside.
Sure, but the squad that got them into the PL had many players who had been with them in League One. They picked up 4 points of 6 available against us last season, and that sure as hell was not down to their massive transfer budget. At some point, one has to give Rodgers some credit for what he did at Swansea - teach how to play that particular discipline.

They made us look impotent at Anfield with journeymen, I think seeing what he can do with some talent is worth a punt.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
15,504
That poll is not really worth interpreting that way. Klopp was my number one choice, so I voted that way. Rodgers was my second.
Snap but apparently I'm always being placed in the category of those who didn't want him. Odd conclusion.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
26,632
True true, our spine is still rafa's boys no doubt, not the same spine he won his trophys with but still. You could say both Roy and Kenny failed to build on that. Only player Roy actually bought I still wish were here is Meireles hmmm didn't he also buy Suarez now I'm thinking about it. Anyway Roy had to go, kenny not so sure but he put his trust in the wrong players, the ones he bought that is, guess the owners either knew or guessed that he would continue doing so, and got rid.
I still think it's way too early to make any conclusion on rodgers, some good thing and bad things, let's see if he can make up for the bad things in the next reansfer window before we go all roy on him.
Suarez came in the January transfer window that Torres left in, near the end. Hodgson was gone by the end of the first week, Dalglish took over and managed against the Mancs on a day's notice that weekend.
 

Quagmire81

TIA Regular
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
6,815
Suarez came in the January transfer window that Torres left in, near the end. Hodgson was gone by the end of the first week, Dalglish took over and managed against the Mancs on a day's notice that weekend.
:huh: So you are saying it was Roy who signed him then.
I remember Carroll being Torres replacement and definetly Kenny's signing.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
26,632
:huh: So you are saying it was Roy who signed him then.
I remember Carroll being Torres replacement and definetly Kenny's signing.
No, Suarez was signed three weeks after Hodgson was gone, and apparently had been scouted by Dalglish anyway. We might have to begrudgingly give Comolli some credit too.
 

lfc55555

TIA First Team
Joined
Oct 25, 2009
Messages
2,253
Sure, but the squad that got them into the PL had many players who had been with them in League One. They picked up 4 points of 6 available against us last season, and that sure as hell was not down to their massive transfer budget. At some point, one has to give Rodgers some credit for what he did at Swansea - teach how to play that particular discipline.

They made us look impotent at Anfield with journeymen, I think seeing what he can do with some talent is worth a punt.
ive seen plenty of managers from the championship division have a good season. in fact it happens all the time when one of teams that comes up does well.

paul lambert took norwich from league one, to the championship to the premier league, and finished the same as brendan rodgers' swansea last season, when they got promoted at the same time. he did this all in consecutive seasons in the space of 3 years, well done to him, but that doesnt mean he has the nous to manage liverpool.
 

Arminius

FSG PR plant
Moderator
Joined
Aug 13, 2008
Messages
26,632
ive seen plenty of managers from the championship division have a good season. in fact it happens all the time when one of teams that comes up does well.

paul lambert took norwich from league one, to the championship to the premier league, and finished ahead of brendan rodgers' swansea last season, when they got promoted at the same time. he did this all in consecutive seasons in the space of 3 years, well done to him, but that doesnt mean he has the nous to manage liverpool.
Paul Lambert would have made my list, to be honest. Taking League One players into the PL and surviving earns my respect. Give Lambert 5 years and solid backing, and his club will be dangerous.

But what I liked about Rodgers over the past year was above all, his willingness to accept responsibility - the absolute anti-thesis of Hodgson.
 

Quagmire81

TIA Regular
Joined
Jan 14, 2007
Messages
6,815
No, Suarez was signed three weeks after Hodgson was gone, and apparently had been scouted by Dalglish anyway. We might have to begrudgingly give Comolli some credit too.
Well it doesn't take a genius to spot his talent anyway :D
Can only wish for such a signing come jan.
 

mappen1977

TIA Reserve Team
Joined
Sep 4, 2010
Messages
413
One thing that sticks out for me is confusion.For every Pro their is a Con,for me the only real thing that matters is the quality of the players. At the minute we just dont have enough quality regardless of who the manager is. We could have the greatest manager in the world at the minute and he could only do so much.
 

FreakLFC

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
318
Bill Shankly didn't have an amazing tool. He never blamed it. And he made it an amazing tool.

Wonder if Brendan is capable?
 

DEVGRU

Banned for the umpteenth time
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Messages
10,012
Bill Shankly didn't have an amazing tool. He never blamed it. And he made it an amazing tool.

Wonder if Brendan is capable?
You must really have issues with Brendan if you need to keep repeating how much you dislike/hate the fella every single day.

Reminds me of the indian cricket team and their anger during a test cricket match in Australia some years back.
 

FreakLFC

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
318
I love Brendan Rodgers. What gives you the impression I dislike him? i kinda dislike you only.
 

FreakLFC

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
318
I dont believe in slaughtering animals.
And can you please keep off your indian jokes?
You might unintentionally hurt a fellow red who is from India. Please talk about LFC.
Please don't show your class here. Just calm down.
 

RedSeven

On the one road
Joined
Aug 20, 2010
Messages
5,963
That poll is not really worth interpreting that way. Klopp was my number one choice, so I voted that way. Rodgers was my second.
i take you point but there were a few on it higher than him,Avb,martinez etc.Not great choices but they still recieved a higher percentage.He may have been your second,but he wouldn,t have been many peoples 2nd.
 

indianscouser

Anything But Normal
Ad-free Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2011
Messages
14,423
@FreakLFC @DEVGRU
come on lads, cut the crap, dont have a dig at each other. respect each others view. If you disagree you can do it in a subtle manner.

i take you point but there were a few on it higher than him,Avb,martinez etc.Not great choices but they still recieved a higher percentage.He may have been your second,but he wouldn,t have been many peoples 2nd.
I agree. I would have certainly gone for AVB. Well shame people never considered Rafa. Infact it was surprise rogers got the job.