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Anfield Atmosphere Discussion

DEVGRU

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To be honest Liverpool in the 80s was far shittier than it is today. The Docks closed down as well as most of the factories leading to mass unemployment, huge population decrease (15% homes derelict) as well as a bankrupt council, riots, and yes drugs (most of the UKs drugs came through Liverpool !!) . It was not a great place to raise kids !

Lets not paint it as some rosy picture because it wasn't. Contrast that with today. Walk into Liverpool city centre and it will rival virtually any city centre in the UK, there has been huge investment. Unemployment stands at around 1 or 2%, in contrast to the 10 to 20 % 30 years ago. The city is transforming its self.

To be honest I actually think that's one of the reasons the atmosphere was brilliant. For many people football was their only outlet, their only joy. They lived for the weekend because they had nothing else. They lived and breathed the club and were more passionate come the weekend. Today many who we deem working class are not poor in the same way. Most will have a 42" telly, an xbox, internet and go on holiday to Riga, Lisbon or Prague.

If you truly are poor you could attend to match in the 80s, a season ticket cost less than attending a single game does today. To be a regular match goer today you probably need £150 a month disposable income. To be honest its no wonder the crowd looks like this:





Ignore playing staff, and the average age of people must be 50 to 60. Those with disposable income.

Its not OOT that are the problem, its the shift in demographic of the people who attend the match from Liverpool. We cater for the middle class, those who have no problem leaving early because football is there to entertain them, rather something they are there to support.
Sorry mate, but half the family back there are jobless and can't get jobs..the area around Anfield is run down and an absolute mess...drugs are everywhere...crime is high...and there really is no re-generation around these area's. A lot of locals remain jobless..I don't know the figures but..it's still pretty bad and life is not so good for many...
 

redsamba82

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Sorry mate, but half the family back there are jobless and can't get jobs..the area around Anfield is run down and an absolute mess...drugs are everywhere...crime is high...and there really is no re-generation around these area's. A lot of locals remain jobless..I don't know the figures but..it's still pretty bad and life is not so good for many...
And along with all of that unfair Benefit sanctioning which the government puts pressure on job centre staff to sanction the most vulnreble and after you have been sanctioned it's off to the foodbank in the 5th richest country in the world.

And people say so where are the locals when there are empty seats at a carling cup game ?

A ticket is nearly half there weekly dole money to survive on or they have been sanctioned or they are too busy selling a bit of weed to put food on the table, the crazy thing is even people in jobs are in the same boat as people on the dole.

So as someone said it isn't half as bad as the 80's I suggest they try a week living on the breadline with a government making it harder and harder to survive.
 

DEVGRU

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And along with all of that unfair Benefit sanctioning which the government puts pressure on job centre staff to sanction the most vulnreble and after you have been sanctioned it's off to the foodbank in the 5th richest country in the world.

And people say so where are the locals when there are empty seats at a carling cup game ?

A ticket is nearly half there weekly dole money to survive on or they have been sanctioned or they are too busy selling a bit of weed to put food on the table, the crazy thing is even people in jobs are in the same boat as people on the dole.

So as someone said it isn't half as bad as the 80's I suggest they try a week living on the breadline with a government making it harder and harder to survive.
Well said redsamba82.
 

hugo the horrible

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To be honest Liverpool in the 80s was far shittier than it is today. The Docks closed down as well as most of the factories leading to mass unemployment, huge population decrease (15% homes derelict) as well as a bankrupt council, riots, and yes drugs (most of the UKs drugs came through Liverpool !!) . It was not a great place to raise kids !

Lets not paint it as some rosy picture because it wasn't. Contrast that with today. Walk into Liverpool city centre and it will rival virtually any city centre in the UK, there has been huge investment. Unemployment stands at around 1 or 2%, in contrast to the 10 to 20 % 30 years ago. The city is transforming its self.

To be honest I actually think that's one of the reasons the atmosphere was brilliant. For many people football was their only outlet, their only joy. They lived for the weekend because they had nothing else. They lived and breathed the club and were more passionate come the weekend. Today many who we deem working class are not poor in the same way. Most will have a 42" telly, an xbox, internet and go on holiday to Riga, Lisbon or Prague.

If you truly are poor you could attend to match in the 80s, a season ticket cost less than attending a single game does today. To be a regular match goer today you probably need £150 a month disposable income. To be honest its no wonder the crowd looks like this:





Ignore playing staff, and the average age of people must be 50 to 60. Those with disposable income.

Its not OOT that are the problem, its the shift in demographic of the people who attend the match from Liverpool. We cater for the middle class, those who have no problem leaving early because football is there to entertain them, rather something they are there to support.
You are so right,ISMF,said it all perfectly.
The part about football being the thing many could afford nails,for sure,the main reason,although there are others,that the atmosphere has been watered down,as it has.
That word again...affordability.
I live the other side of the world now,but I'd question the unemployment rate,would expect it to be lower than the 80's when the dock work was pretty well gone though.
 

DEVGRU

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You are so right,ISMF,said it all perfectly.
The part about football being the thing many could afford nails,for sure,the main reason,although there are others,that the atmosphere has been watered down,as it has.
That word again...affordability.
I live the other side of the world now,but I'd question the unemployment rate,would expect it to be lower than the 80's when the dock work was pretty well gone though.
Things have not really changed all that much since the 80s...the watered down statistics and reality in the city I think tell's the story more so than what the politicians want us to see/believe..
 

football.tiger

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4.5 millions in the NW, 1 million are inactive in the labour market (16-64), 200,000 unemployed, just over 50% of 18-24 year olds have a job with unemployment rates hovering around 20%... So, the more deprived areas most likely get the brunt of that very slack labour market.
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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To be honest we are arguing a side point.

I doubt many people (like me) who lived during this period, would say they would rather be living in Liverpool in the late 1970s/1980s, rather than today. As someone who lived there in the 80s, and regularly makes visits I have seen the city continuously improve. People still have it hard, but honestly we are a long way away from people rioting in the street. However we might just to agree to disagree.

However we all agree on the fundamental point I made. If you are on the dole, or low to medium income you cant afford to attend the match. 7 years ago the average income of those at a Liverpool game was £39,000 (PL fan survey), this figure is probably higher today.

The reason is in todays money attending the match is a big outlay. We cant escape that. If you live on a budget you weigh up your options. If you attend the match you really do have to make a sacrifice. Over half your weekly money if you are on benefits and even if your not, attending a couple of games is enough to pay for a holiday, or a number of nights out, or a fairly big expenditure (mobile/laptop etc).

This is where team performance comes into play. People in Liverpool will make those sacrifices if the team are playing well. Rafa in the CL is a good example, or the year before last under Rodgers. However Is the team is heading for midtable, few wish to make that sacrifice.

The choices are simple to improve atmosphere.
Improve team performance so that people make the personal sacrifice and attend the game.
Change ticket price structure to give access to younger and poorer fans. (Our cheapest ticket is one of the most expensive in the country)
 

ptt

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Thatcher urged 'let Liverpool decline' AFTER 1981 riots

Key word highlighted there.
 

DEVGRU

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To be honest we are arguing a side point.

I doubt many people (like me) who lived during this period, would say they would rather be living in Liverpool in the late 1970s/1980s, rather than today. As someone who lived there in the 80s, and regularly makes visits I have seen the city continuously improve. People still have it hard, but honestly we are a long way away from people rioting in the street. However we might just to agree to disagree.

However we all agree on the fundamental point I made. If you are on the dole, or low to medium income you cant afford to attend the match. 7 years ago the average income of those at a Liverpool game was £39,000 (PL fan survey), this figure is probably higher today.

The reason is in todays money attending the match is a big outlay. We cant escape that. If you live on a budget you weigh up your options. If you attend the match you really do have to make a sacrifice. Over half your weekly money if you are on benefits and even if your not, attending a couple of games is enough to pay for a holiday, or a number of nights out, or a fairly big expenditure (mobile/laptop etc).

This is where team performance comes into play. People in Liverpool will make those sacrifices if the team are playing well. Rafa in the CL is a good example, or the year before last under Rodgers. However Is the team is heading for midtable, few wish to make that sacrifice.

The choices are simple to improve atmosphere.
Improve team performance so that people make the personal sacrifice and attend the game.
Change ticket price structure to give access to younger and poorer fans. (Our cheapest ticket is one of the most expensive in the country)
Cost of living, raising a family and then trying to make ends meet week to week...dole or no dole..is tough enough as it is...things have gotten progressively worse for the lower middle class worker because in part wages have not kept up with inflation as well. And the cost to raise a child in this day and age...is not cheap.
 

datapolo

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A pretty good portrayal of life in Liverpool in the 80`s .
Well worth a watch
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0083689/
When we watched this in the 80's it was hilarious. I bought the boxed set in 2006 and found it extremely depressing. The main characters all wanted to work in a legit job with the associated dignity but the system seemed diametrically opposed to that. Looking back you can see how this affected society so negatively. Painful but compelling to watch.
 

redsamba82

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When we watched this in the 80's it was hilarious. I bought the boxed set in 2006 and found it extremely depressing. The main characters all wanted to work in a legit job with the associated dignity but the system seemed diametrically opposed to that. Looking back you can see how this affected society so negatively. Painful but compelling to watch.
They wasn't as evil back then with sanctions and foodbanks we see in the modern Britain of today.


5th richest economy in the world and they treat the poor of the UK like this.


Just one of the reasons the working class and the poor people of Liverpool who could once go the game are no longer part of football and there club and it was one of there enjoyments to escape the unfair society of the UK today.
 

zagueiro

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I don't buy any discussion that low benefits is the reason people can't afford to go to the game. If you are healthy and on benefit (as most will be) there is a simple answer - GET A F*CKIN JOB! Why should people's hard earned taxes be used to pay for luxuries like going the game??? And before all the liberal excusers come out on me about the lack of work, hundreds of thousands of Eastern European immigrants seems to have managed to come here and work hard for a living. There isn't a shortage of jobs, just a shortage of the indigenous population willing to do the shite jobs as benefit make it too easy not to work.
 

ptt

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They wasn't as evil back then with sanctions and foodbanks we see in the modern Britain of today.


5th richest economy in the world and they treat the poor of the UK like this.


Just one of the reasons the working class and the poor people of Liverpool who could once go the game are no longer part of football and there club and it was one of there enjoyments to escape the unfair society of the UK today.
I watched that BFTBS episode out of interest, have often heard it referenced but never watched it. Can you please explain who was treating the poor unfairly there? Seemed to me (quite obviously) that the government was providing a safety net whilst the charachters in the program were working illegally.
 

peter roberts

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I watched that BFTBS episode out of interest, have often heard it referenced but never watched it. Can you please explain who was treating the poor unfairly there? Seemed to me (quite obviously) that the government was providing a safety net whilst the charachters in the program were working illegally.
You obviously know very little about recent British political history or the desolation that the Tories wreaked on the North of England and Liverpool in particular if you need to ask that. Just think today's austerity misery and multiply it by ten.
 

ptt

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I was refering specifically to the video posted to prove a point.
 

mattyhurst

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I don't buy any discussion that low benefits is the reason people can't afford to go to the game. If you are healthy and on benefit (as most will be) there is a simple answer - GET A F*CKIN JOB! Why should people's hard earned taxes be used to pay for luxuries like going the game??? And before all the liberal excusers come out on me about the lack of work, hundreds of thousands of Eastern European immigrants seems to have managed to come here and work hard for a living. There isn't a shortage of jobs, just a shortage of the indigenous population willing to do the shite jobs as benefit make it too easy not to work.
Hello Liberal excuser here (waves) yeah you are quite right we shouldn't be funding games through benefits that's fair enough.

Not sure why you bothered with the ill informed slightly pathetic rant that followed it mind. I had a pay off after taking voluntary redundancy (15k nice earner) it took me 4 months to find another job, had plenty of interviews across the country. I actually didn't claim benefits for the month or two I could have I suppose but why get responses like yours thrown at your face if you can afford not too.

I've worked in the DWP, I have also worked for CAB, trust me there is far more to it than your pathetic simplistic view you've come out with.

Though as I said I agree we shouldn't be funding game attendance for those on benefits though it might give them a break from trying to find work.
 

redsamba82

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I watched that BFTBS episode out of interest, have often heard it referenced but never watched it. Can you please explain who was treating the poor unfairly there? Seemed to me (quite obviously) that the government was providing a safety net whilst the charachters in the program were working illegally.
Hahahahaha a safety net ?

I take it you didn't live or expierence life under the conservative government in Liverpool in the 1980's with a comment like that.

I'm going to leave it there so this thread doesn't turn into left/right political thread but as I have said in previous posts right wing politics and capitalism is one of the reasons why the atmosphere has become virtually non existent.
 

redsamba82

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I don't buy any discussion that low benefits is the reason people can't afford to go to the game. If you are healthy and on benefit (as most will be) there is a simple answer - GET A F*CKIN JOB! Why should people's hard earned taxes be used to pay for luxuries like going the game??? And before all the liberal excusers come out on me about the lack of work, hundreds of thousands of Eastern European immigrants seems to have managed to come here and work hard for a living. There isn't a shortage of jobs, just a shortage of the indigenous population willing to do the shite jobs as benefit make it too easy not to work.
No doubt you buy the daily mail reader with a rant like that.

The thing that makes me laugh is people are working and they still can't afford to go so no doubt it's a case of well then work harder in a job they can't better themselves in ?

And while your at it let's ban people's kids who don't work from playing football as they obviously don't deserve to play football as they are playing with a football bought with benefits money.

In fact lets just ban anyone not working any enjoyment from football whatsoever.
 

redsamba82

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I think we should allow those on benefits special admission to Anfield but make sure they're seated around zagueiro. They could benefit from his moralising and, of course, learn what dedication and commitment mean when he leaves the game early...
Oh no no you couldn't have unemployed common locals at the match imagine what the hospitality fans would think ?
 

zagueiro

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Hello Liberal excuser here (waves) yeah you are quite right we shouldn't be funding games through benefits that's fair enough.

Not sure why you bothered with the ill informed slightly pathetic rant that followed it mind. I had a pay off after taking voluntary redundancy (15k nice earner) it took me 4 months to find another job, had plenty of interviews across the country. I actually didn't claim benefits for the month or two I could have I suppose but why get responses like yours thrown at your face if you can afford not too.

I've worked in the DWP, I have also worked for CAB, trust me there is far more to it than your pathetic simplistic view you've come out with.

Though as I said I agree we shouldn't be funding game attendance for those on benefits though it might give them a break from trying to find work.

Ill informed? There is no reason for a healthy adult to have a life time of being on benefit, none whatsoever. I would have thought it was pretty obvious that my post wasn't aimed at thiose who find themselver on benefit for a few months inbetween jobs, but at those who have benefit as a lifestyle choice and then piss and moan they can't afford to got he game.
 

zagueiro

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No doubt you buy the daily mail reader with a rant like that.

The thing that makes me laugh is people are working and they still can't afford to go so no doubt it's a case of well then work harder in a job they can't better themselves in ?

And while your at it let's ban people's kids who don't work from playing football as they obviously don't deserve to play football as they are playing with a football bought with benefits money.

In fact lets just ban anyone not working any enjoyment from football whatsoever.
The Guardian actually :)

I never mentioned what working people should and shouldn't be entitled to. They earn what they earn legitimately, I'm not contributing to it so it's no business of mine. But that's the thing with a capitalist socienty, life becomes very unfair doesn't it where one person can work very hard in a low paid but important job, and bankers make millions from doing jack sh*t. I don't have the solution to that sadly. I stand by my point; if healthy people choose to live life on the dole then I have no sympathy if they can't afford to go the game. I do however have alot of sympathy for those who work bloody hard on low wages who can't afford the game.
 

redsamba82

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The Guardian actually :)

I never mentioned what working people should and shouldn't be entitled to. They earn what they earn legitimately, I'm not contributing to it so it's no business of mine. But that's the thing with a capitalist socienty, life becomes very unfair doesn't it where one person can work very hard in a low paid but important job, and bankers make millions from doing jack sh*t. I don't have the solution to that sadly. I stand by my point; if healthy people choose to live life on the dole then I have no sympathy if they can't afford to go the game. I do however have alot of sympathy for those who work bloody hard on low wages who can't afford the game.
Glad you don't read the self serving mail.

All football fans should be treated the same working or not working, a fan should not be frowned upon just because they are out of luck and cannot get a job and be stereotyped as anyone at anytime can end up jobless.

Going to watch the redmen at anfield was once a form of escapism for the people of Liverpool working or not working but it has been taken away from us and turned into a middle class game.

 

zagueiro

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Glad you don't read the self serving mail.

All football fans should be treated the same working or not working, a fan should not be frowned upon just because they are out of luck and cannot get a job and be stereotyped as anyone at anytime can end up jobless.

Going to watch the redmen at anfield was once a form of escapism for the people of Liverpool working or not working but it has been taken away from us and turned into a middle class game.

As I've already clarified, it's not those who are down on their luck my point was aimed at, people genuinely down on their luck will soon get themselves sorted. My post was aimed at career benefit scroungers who can't go the game. There are some genuine people on benefit for short periods, but no healthy adult should be unemployed for long in this country. There are jobs, it's just whether they can be arsed to do them. The street I live on I've personally witnessed 3 generations of one family all be eternally on benefit. Soon as the kids get old enough they have kids, get houses and the cycle perpetuates. This is not some Daily Mail informed stereotype, this is the actual reality I witness daily. So no, I don't think these type of people should be able to afford to go the game, and I don't feel bad saying it. I once heard one of them slaggin off a lad who got a job by saying " Nah, he's greedy cos he's got a job, benefit wasn;t enough for him". Greedy ffs :(
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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Zag I think you have the argument the wrong way around.

No one is arguing that benefits should pay for someone attending the match, we are arguing that match prices should make the game accessible to all.

They are two different arguments and it confuses the issue by arguing the morality of someone spending their benefit money on leisure activities. The point being made is to attend the game is a similar amount as we expect people to live on. All clothes, food, utilities, transport for a week etc Surely that is wrong ?

This means even if you are working, after taxes and rent your income needs to be double the amount you would receive on benefits.

We cant have our cake and eat it. We cant have a fantastic atmosphere and at the same time only cater for middle class. Something has to gve, and currently it is the atmosphere.
 

gasband

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Unfortunately, with the current money involved to reap from the game and to ensure we stay competitive in the game, its hard to cater to all groups of people. But maybe the club can always set aside a number of subsidized tickets like 1000 tickets every home match for certain groups of people. Are we doing that already? But then if we sell subsidized tickets, is there also a problem of touting/reselling at a normal price? I think its not easy for the club to manage this and ensure everything and everyone is well looked out for.

And for the environment, I think its not about which groups of people are coming to the matches, i think its more herd mentality. More and more, people will feel weird if you are the only one shouting, maybe the club can insert "cheerleaders" (not those in short skirts) or harness the numerous fan clubs members to start the ball rolling whenever the crowds seem to quieten down?
 

zagueiro

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Zag I think you have the argument the wrong way around.

No one is arguing that benefits should pay for someone attending the match, we are arguing that match prices should make the game accessible to all.

They are two different arguments and it confuses the issue by arguing the morality of someone spending their benefit money on leisure activities. The point being made is to attend the game is a similar amount as we expect people to live on. All clothes, food, utilities, transport for a week etc Surely that is wrong ?

This means even if you are working, after taxes and rent your income needs to be double the amount you would receive on benefits.

We cant have our cake and eat it. We cant have a fantastic atmosphere and at the same time only cater for middle class. Something has to gve, and currently it is the atmosphere.
Regardless of the benefit issue, we can't have the best players and be able to pay their wages if we dont have the revenue. For all his faults Ian Ayre has massively increased our revenue but we are still quite low in comparison to other clubs. We sadly live in a capitalist world. Supply and demand dictates that the club could increase prices and we'd still sell out. Given that there is no guarantee that reducing prices or letting in locals on benefit for tuppence hapenny would improve atmosphere what would be the point? We are no longer in 1980's, society has massively changed since that period, the vast majority of people in England are comparitively far wealthier than they were pre-Thatcher days.

I do think some arrangements need to be found to let local kids in, maybe a quota system of pay on the door for kids who can prove a Liverpool postcode or something like that, but for adults I dont; see a way of changing ticket prices downwards given that demand is so high!

I don;t like rugby or the middle classes who typically attend (union), but they seem to create a very good atmosphere............!
 
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