Anfield Expansion - Main Stand and potential Anfield Road End

dockers_strike

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Was it September 2019 the deadline to announce plans for Annie Road? Forgot, so just checking. Will the delay over Kirkby for a year also delay plans for this?
Yes the outline planning approval for ARE runs to September 2019. No the development of Kirkby should not delay ARE. The club is still looking at the best options for joining ARE to the Main and KD stands plus whether boxes are feasible and other facilities etc. I also understand the club is looking closing off Anfield Road, diverting it up to the park boundary or simply building over and behind it.

So in all probability the club will apply for extended planning permission well before it is due to run out.
 

dockers_strike

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The problem with safe standing is say a section was built into the Kop those people not in the safe standing will still stand as they do now. The idea that a 3000 or 5000 standing section in a 12000+ seat stand will mean the other 7000 will all sit down is pretty ludicrous to me. Yes it works at Celtic because they didnt have 12000 people in that stand standing up all game. Thats not the case at Anfield.
 

jaffod

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I’d say if you’re having it in part of a stand (Kop for example) it needs to be all or nothing
Agreed. The old paddock that ran the length of the pitch would have been ideal but has now been swallowed up by the new stand. Probably held the best part of 5000 people and was shallow enough for crushing not to be an issue with the right sort of barriers in place.
Don't know where they got that 5% figure from, seems ridiculously low to me and if anything just shows how much the traditional working class support has been watered down over the years.
 

Arminius

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Agreed. The old paddock that ran the length of the pitch would have been ideal but has now been swallowed up by the new stand. Probably held the best part of 5000 people and was shallow enough for crushing not to be an issue with the right sort of barriers in place.
Don't know where they got that 5% figure from, seems ridiculously low to me and if anything just shows how much the traditional working class support has been watered down over the years.
There are two key pieces:

1. That is 5% who wish to stand for the whole game. That is a fairly high bar, compared to being able to stand at various times during the match. Other polls have shown a majority of fans wish to be able to stand.

2. There is a form of sample bias in the method the PL used. The population they used is all match-attending fans, which has a certain logic. However, if I were to be flying in for my once-in-a-lifetime PL game and was surveyed, selfie stick in hand, my response would count the same as the season ticket holder who goes to every match, home and away. The percentage of fans who would be willing to stand for the whole match in any given match-stadium combination is probably well above 5%, because that 5% is probably strongly correlated to more frequent attendance.
 

jaffod

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There are two key pieces:

1. That is 5% who wish to stand for the whole game. That is a fairly high bar, compared to being able to stand at various times during the match. Other polls have shown a majority of fans wish to be able to stand.

2. There is a form of sample bias in the method the PL used. The population they used is all match-attending fans, which has a certain logic. However, if I were to be flying in for my once-in-a-lifetime PL game and was surveyed, selfie stick in hand, my response would count the same as the season ticket holder who goes to every match, home and away. The percentage of fans who would be willing to stand for the whole match in any given match-stadium combination is probably well above 5%, because that 5% is probably strongly correlated to more frequent attendance.
I don't get the whole 'stand up for part of the match' thing. How does that work? Stand up for 10 minutes and then sit down for 10? Who decides when to stand? It's a load of bollocks.
 

rupzzz

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Who stands, and for how long, is entirely down to the match being played.

Generally, in my experience, it's a mix, which usually sees standing when the ball is at the other end of the pitch for a set piece, or as an attack is forming and looking like it will result in a clear chance - basically waiting for wild celebrations to start.

I've been at games at Anfield where the Kop stood for the entire match - largely European nights, but occasionally for big PL games also. I agree, it should be an all or nothing rail seating stand. I was in the main stand for the Man City game, and we pretty much were stood the whole night.

If the Kop were to be made a full rail seating stand, then those who have seats (season tickets) there now, that want to sit, can be offered up Main Stand seats, whilst others in other sections can be offered the safe standing one.

You hear the argument that "old Jim is now too old to stand for 90 mins in the Kop, but why should he move from the Kop - he's always been there". Whilst I agree that sentiment has a part to play, I'd also argue that back when there were terraces, Jim would have had no choice.

No idea who Jim is.

Away stands should be safe standing. I don't think I've been to an away Liverpool game and sat other than before kick off, or at HT.
 
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Red Armada

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Danny_

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The problem with safe standing is say a section was built into the Kop those people not in the safe standing will still stand as they do now. The idea that a 3000 or 5000 standing section in a 12000+ seat stand will mean the other 7000 will all sit down is pretty ludicrous to me. Yes it works at Celtic because they didnt have 12000 people in that stand standing up all game. Thats not the case at Anfield.
Dortmund and other German clubs have safe standing and it works for them.
 

Iluvatar

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I reckon it will be the full Kop going standing, and then ARE being seated with an expansion. We'll then push towards 65k.
 

Mascot88

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Safe Standing or rail seating is still going problematic for a club like Liverpool, because the circumstances around ticket sales and how supporters engage with the stadium have changed.

There used to be an informal graduation process at Anfield, and I’d imagine most of the big stadiums worked in a similar way. Kids would start off in the boys pen, and then when old enough move into the Kop. When the Kop got too much for the older lads they’d move over to one of the seated stands.

Nowadays there isn’t the option for someone who is finding it tough to stand up to simply move to another part of the ground. The clamour for tickets is too great and there is far less flex in the way tickets are sold to allow people and element of choice about where they sit/stand.

I remember the first time I went to Anfield, in the late eighties, me and my family, rocked up, paid cash on the turnstile, and went into the Kop.

I’m not against standing for safety reasons or anything like that, in fact I’m broadly in favour - but there needs to be a complete rethink of ticketing and waiting lists alongside it.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Safe Standing or rail seating is still going problematic for a club like Liverpool, because the circumstances around ticket sales and how supporters engage with the stadium have changed.

There used to be an informal graduation process at Anfield, and I’d imagine most of the big stadiums worked in a similar way. Kids would start off in the boys pen, and then when old enough move into the Kop. When the Kop got too much for the older lads they’d move over to one of the seated stands.

Nowadays there isn’t the option for someone who is finding it tough to stand up to simply move to another part of the ground. The clamour for tickets is too great and there is far less flex in the way tickets are sold to allow people and element of choice about where they sit/stand.

I remember the first time I went to Anfield, in the late eighties, me and my family, rocked up, paid cash on the turnstile, and went into the Kop.

I’m not against standing for safety reasons or anything like that, in fact I’m broadly in favour - but there needs to be a complete rethink of ticketing and waiting lists alongside it.
Regardless of that I think we are well overdue a restructure of the ticketing process.
 

dockers_strike

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Dortmund and other German clubs have safe standing and it works for them.
Indeed they do and thank god they havent had any accidents.

The simple point is this though; You introduce a 'safe standing' in a part of the ground. Then, the rest of the people in the stand and maybe other parts of the ground that dont have standing go 'they are standing up so I want to stand up' even though they arent in a 'safe standing' area. You only have to look at the Kop now. During many matches, Id say a good 60+% of people are standing. The whole Kop isnt going to be made 'safe standing' so it's pretty clear what's going to happen.
 

ILLOK

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Indeed they do and thank god they havent had any accidents.

The simple point is this though; You introduce a 'safe standing' in a part of the ground. Then, the rest of the people in the stand and maybe other parts of the ground that dont have standing go 'they are standing up so I want to stand up' even though they arent in a 'safe standing' area. You only have to look at the Kop now. During many matches, Id say a good 60+% of people are standing. The whole Kop isnt going to be made 'safe standing' so it's pretty clear what's going to happen.
By your own logic, if 60% are already standing why aren't the other 40% standing?
 

ILLOK

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Safe Standing or rail seating is still going problematic for a club like Liverpool, because the circumstances around ticket sales and how supporters engage with the stadium have changed.

There used to be an informal graduation process at Anfield, and I’d imagine most of the big stadiums worked in a similar way. Kids would start off in the boys pen, and then when old enough move into the Kop. When the Kop got too much for the older lads they’d move over to one of the seated stands.

Nowadays there isn’t the option for someone who is finding it tough to stand up to simply move to another part of the ground. The clamour for tickets is too great and there is far less flex in the way tickets are sold to allow people and element of choice about where they sit/stand.

I remember the first time I went to Anfield, in the late eighties, me and my family, rocked up, paid cash on the turnstile, and went into the Kop.

I’m not against standing for safety reasons or anything like that, in fact I’m broadly in favour - but there needs to be a complete rethink of ticketing and waiting lists alongside it.
Surely the rail seating would go to STHs first, and if so this concern really isn't an issue. If somebody doesn't want to stand they can apply to move and somebody else will take their place.
 

Iluvatar

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Safe Standing or rail seating is still going problematic for a club like Liverpool, because the circumstances around ticket sales and how supporters engage with the stadium have changed.

There used to be an informal graduation process at Anfield, and I’d imagine most of the big stadiums worked in a similar way. Kids would start off in the boys pen, and then when old enough move into the Kop. When the Kop got too much for the older lads they’d move over to one of the seated stands.

Nowadays there isn’t the option for someone who is finding it tough to stand up to simply move to another part of the ground. The clamour for tickets is too great and there is far less flex in the way tickets are sold to allow people and element of choice about where they sit/stand.

I remember the first time I went to Anfield, in the late eighties, me and my family, rocked up, paid cash on the turnstile, and went into the Kop.

I’m not against standing for safety reasons or anything like that, in fact I’m broadly in favour - but there needs to be a complete rethink of ticketing and waiting lists alongside it.
I think that's part of the problem, but I don't think it's mainly down to the club. There are a few factors;

1st point is that there are far too many old arses still holding onto their Kop tickets, as you say there was always a natural migration to the quieter stands, but it has really slowed down to a point its hardly happening.
2nd point is that there is nowhere for people to go, yes there was an opportunity when the Main Stand expanded, so hopefully with an ARE expansion similar could happen.

One of the big blockages to atmosphere is the lack of like minded fans sitting together, I've been in the Kop in recent years and there are loads of oldies who just sit there and grumble all game.. Which is sad as I'd bet 20 years ago they were pissing down a newspaper and singing till horse. They need to move on, and the club needs to help with that process. Telling them it was going standing only would shift a good number!
 

dockers_strike

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By your own logic, if 60% are already standing why aren't the other 40% standing?
That's pretty easy to determine, isnt it? It's because the other 40% want to sit down, not everyone wants to stand! And those 40% probably do have to stand at many points during the game to see because the other 60% will not sit down at all. In any event, 60+% of the Kop equates to over 7200 fans standing, there's no way the club is making a 'safe standing' area to accommodate over 7000 fans.

I think people are missing a point about 'older' fans should move out of the Kop. The Kop is one of the cheapest, if not the cheapest seating in the whole ground. Not every arl arse has pots of money to afford the cost of the KD or Main Stand. Ergo, they keep their seat and their match going costs down.
 

dockers_strike

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So, tell me why they'd suddenly stand if safe standing was introduced elsewhere?
You've clearly not been to many games at Anfield if you think most people are not standing on the Kop.

OK, I suggested 60% of a 12000 capacity stand are currently standing. That equates to around 7000 people. So, you're trying to suggest that if the club introduces a 'safe standing' section for say 3000 (like Celtic) that 4000 other people (7000 less 3000) who also currently stand are suddenly going to sit because they arent in the 'safe standing' area? Behave.
 

Caradoc

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There’s a big difference between standing when your side are on the attack or just scored and then sitting back down and standing up throughout the match.

If the regulations change then maybe the club should think about incorporating a safe standing area in the redeveloped Anfield Road end first and taking it from there. It would probably be better to introduce changes gradually because of the costs involved.

As for standing in seated areas, the SKD stand is an accident waiting to happen. The amount of foot room before you trip over the seat back in front of you is very small. I can’t remember if its as bad on The Kop. Still if some on here get there way The Kop will out of bounds for people of my age soon.

One thought - if there is a council limit on the capacity for Anfield, if the club push ahead with their existing plans for the Anfield Road end what (if anything) would be the effect of introducing safe standing areas on the stadium capacity? How would they decide on the capacity of a safe standing area compared with the equivalent seated only area? Would the permitted capacity be increased/decreased and if so by how much? At Anfield with the existing narrow standing room I guess capacity changes would be negligible compared with say stadia in Germany.
 
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ILLOK

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You've clearly not been to many games at Anfield if you think most people are not standing on the Kop.

OK, I suggested 60% of a 12000 capacity stand are currently standing. That equates to around 7000 people. So, you're trying to suggest that if the club introduces a 'safe standing' section for say 3000 (like Celtic) that 4000 other people (7000 less 3000) who also currently stand are suddenly going to sit because they arent in the 'safe standing' area? Behave.
I think you're confused pal, you seem to be attributing things to me that I've never said.

As for your argument...better to have 3,000 safe standing 'seats' and 4,000 standing in normal seats than 7,000 standing as is currently the case (according to your figures).
 

Gone Kloppo

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One thought - if there is a council limit on the capacity for Anfield, if the club push ahead with their existing plans for the Anfield Road end what (if anything) would be the effect of introducing safe standing areas on the stadium capacity? How would they decide on the capacity of a safe standing area compared with the equivalent seated only area? Would the permitted capacity be increased/decreased and if so by how much? At Anfield with the existing narrow standing room I guess capacity changes would be negligible compared with say stadia in Germany.
Completely depends on the design but extremely unlikely that the capacity would increase. I think the capacity at Celtic Park was the same before and after installing rail seats. The government/FA would never sign off on safe standing like that in the Bundesliga.
 
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Caradoc

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Completely depends on the design but extremely unlikely that the capacity would increase. I think the capacity at Celtic Park was the same before and after installing rail seats, and I cant envisage the FA/Government straying too far from that design and heading down the Westfalenstadion 1.5/seat route.

There are structural, design and spatial issues before we even get to regulations. The 3 older Anfield stands have narrower/smaller space allocation per seat than Westfalenstadion and so are quite probably not suitable for that sort of ratio.
 



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dockers_strike

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I think you're confused pal, you seem to be attributing things to me that I've never said.

As for your argument...better to have 3,000 safe standing 'seats' and 4,000 standing in normal seats than 7,000 standing as is currently the case (according to your figures).
I think you're the confused one 'pal.' You seem intent twisting what I have written. Where's my argument it is better to have 3000 and 4000 standing in normal seats? I have written no such thing. Why do you lie to counter a reasoned argument? I used those figures as examples of 60+% standing and what potentially would happen if 7000 people currently standing had 3000 'safe standing' seats and what the other 4000 would probably do based on current circumstances.

For the record, Im against a 'safe standing' section at Anfield under any circumstances. Im saying people should sit. Obviously there are times when we all stand during an attacking or other decisive moment during a game. But carry on twisting what other people have posted 'pal.'
 

ILLOK

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I think you're the confused one 'pal.' You seem intent twisting what I have written. Where's my argument it is better to have 3000 and 4000 standing in normal seats? I have written no such thing. Why do you lie to counter a reasoned argument? I used those figures as examples of 60+% standing and what potentially would happen if 7000 people currently standing had 3000 'safe standing seats and what the other 4000 would probably do based on current circumstances.

For the record, Im against a 'safe standing' section at Anfield under any circumstances. Im saying people should sit. Obviously there are times when we all stand during an attacking or other decisive moment during a game. But carry on twisting what other people have posted 'pal.'
No, you're still confused.

The bolded was my argument. I'll try again - if there are already 7000 standing, wouldn't it be better if 3000 of those were standing in designated standing areas?

Are you drunk? It's only 11 am, slow it down.
 

dockers_strike

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No, you're still confused.

The bolded was my argument.

Are you drunk? It's only 11 am, slow it down.
Yes, confused by your poorly phrased argument that actually suggested something else on reading. As for your drunk comment, pathetic. But it is usually what people do when shown to be lacking the ability to discuss things.
 

ILLOK

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Yes, confused by your poorly phrased argument that actually suggested something else on
reading. As for your drunk comment, pathetic. But it is usually what people do when shown to be lacking the ability to discuss things.
You still haven't explained why it would be a big problem if the other 4000, who already stand up, would continue to stand up.
 

Kopstar

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No, you're still confused.

The bolded was my argument. I'll try again - if there are already 7000 standing, wouldn't it be better if 3000 of those were standing in designated standing areas?

Are you drunk? It's only 11 am, slow it down.
Tbf, kick off's in just over an hour and if you're going to stand for the game and risk injuring yourself by falling over the seats in front it helps to be a little tipsy.