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Anfield Expansion - Main Stand and potential Anfield Road End

liveforthereds

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I don't really understand why it is a big thing, for either the City Council or the Club. The amount of fans that would use the Trains would not make any difference as the amount of trains required to run to move thousands of fans would not be practical, If Merseyrail run the services along this line it would be at most a 6 car set which would be about 500 passengers (Not sure of actual figure), so would that make a big difference to the thousands that attend a game, Merseyrail currently run a 15 minute service and yes Grand National week they run 7 minute services, but that impacts on the rest of the network, would they want to do this every weekend of midweek game I doubt it, so if my Figures are right the most that could use the train would be roughly 4k in the 2 hours before the game. If Northern was to run services I think it would be less as the new train/current stock they can only put at most a 4 car set on which holds far less than the Merseyrail trains. So while a small amount can be moved in this way it would not really make that much of a difference in the great scheme of things.

So for me this would be more about the Council/Government getting a much needed rail link on the cheep
 

Arminius

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I don't really understand why it is a big thing, for either the City Council or the Club. The amount of fans that would use the Trains would not make any difference as the amount of trains required to run to move thousands of fans would not be practical, If Merseyrail run the services along this line it would be at most a 6 car set which would be about 500 passengers (Not sure of actual figure), so would that make a big difference to the thousands that attend a game, Merseyrail currently run a 15 minute service and yes Grand National week they run 7 minute services, but that impacts on the rest of the network, would they want to do this every weekend of midweek game I doubt it, so if my Figures are right the most that could use the train would be roughly 4k in the 2 hours before the game. If Northern was to run services I think it would be less as the new train/current stock they can only put at most a 4 car set on which holds far less than the Merseyrail trains. So while a small amount can be moved in this way it would not really make that much of a difference in the great scheme of things.

So for me this would be more about the Council/Government getting a much needed rail link on the cheep
I think you are dramatically underestimating capacity - one of those Alstom two car sets can carry up to 600 people with standing. On match days, the train at the Allianz runs every 5 minutes from downtown, with apparently some six car sets. But even with the smaller ones, that is 7200 per hour from a single line. In Munich most of the traffic originates from the centre, I would guess at Anfield that would still be true, albeit it somewhat better balanced. Assuming say 3k per hour from the opposite direction, and using your two hour window, a single line could manage 1/3rd of the current capacity - which in turn takes a lot of pressure off the other alternatives.
 

dockers_strike

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I think you are dramatically underestimating capacity - one of those Alstom two car sets can carry up to 600 people with standing. On match days, the train at the Allianz runs every 5 minutes from downtown, with apparently some six car sets. But even with the smaller ones, that is 7200 per hour from a single line. In Munich most of the traffic originates from the centre, I would guess at Anfield that would still be true, albeit it somewhat better balanced. Assuming say 3k per hour from the opposite direction, and using your two hour window, a single line could manage 1/3rd of the current capacity - which in turn takes a lot of pressure off the other alternatives.
I cannot speak for German fans but, historically, English fans have a record for trashing trains especially after games so, brand new Alstom 2 and 3 car trains arent going to be risked carrying footie fans and, there's a reason 'football specials' were eventually stopped by British Rail. They basically got wrecked trains back each Saturday which were only good for the scrappers.

Also, the infrastructure isnt in place on UK railways to make this much vaunted benefits of a station viable, people are wedded to their cars and dont want to have to hop on a bus or train to make a short journey to a park and ride then queue up with everyone else all trying to get out the car park at the same time. I know I dont. A train generally only goes to one destination even though it has stops but people come from different directions to get to games. There arent going to be hordes of trains coming from different parts of Merseyside, Lancashire or Cheshire.

Home and away fans travelling together on the same train to a station serving Anfield? Yeah, I can see that going well. Training in manchester united or say chelsea fans on match days? Yeah, a good pinch point for trouble. Even then, the station and line would likely only be used every other week for 3 or 4 hours. The idea that everton fans would swell the numbers and therefore benefits is pie in the sky thinking to me.

Talks of 70,000 and 80,000 capacity was fanciful when this new stadium in Stanley Park was being considered. Anything over 65,000 and even that is going to be very difficult to achieve at Anfield. People go into fanciful mode talking about increasing the Kop. They ignore the buildings and Walton Breck immediately behind it.

ARE represents the only viable space for expansion, one the club needs to get right to give the best sight lines and capacity increase. 63,000 is, imvho, going to be the best the club can squeeze in.
 

Arminius

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I cannot speak for German fans but, historically, English fans have a record for trashing trains especially after games so, brand new Alstom 2 and 3 car trains arent going to be risked carrying footie fans and, there's a reason 'football specials' were eventually stopped by British Rail. They basically got wrecked trains back each Saturday which were only good for the scrappers.

Also, the infrastructure isnt in place on UK railways to make this much vaunted benefits of a station viable, people are wedded to their cars and dont want to have to hop on a bus or train to make a short journey to a park and ride then queue up with everyone else all trying to get out the car park at the same time. I know I dont. A train generally only goes to one destination even though it has stops but people come from different directions to get to games. There arent going to be hordes of trains coming from different parts of Merseyside, Lancashire or Cheshire.

Home and away fans travelling together on the same train to a station serving Anfield? Yeah, I can see that going well. Training in manchester united or say chelsea fans on match days? Yeah, a good pinch point for trouble. Even then, the station and line would likely only be used every other week for 3 or 4 hours. The idea that everton fans would swell the numbers and therefore benefits is pie in the sky thinking to me.

Talks of 70,000 and 80,000 capacity was fanciful when this new stadium in Stanley Park was being considered. Anything over 65,000 and even that is going to be very difficult to achieve at Anfield. People go into fanciful mode talking about increasing the Kop. They ignore the buildings and Walton Breck immediately behind it.

ARE represents the only viable space for expansion, one the club needs to get right to give the best sight lines and capacity increase. 63,000 is, imvho, going to be the best the club can squeeze in.
On the other hand, I can't see light rail being the main method for away fans arriving. Derbies would be a particular challenge, but that is manageable - the Milan derby is not always a cheerful one, they just lay on 'red' and 'blue' trains. You are probably right about the challenges of the tradition of English fan culture, but on the other hand, weren't those all football specials intercity? A train from central Liverpool to Anfield would not even be 10 minutes, would it?

Regarding the overall transport infrastructure, you are probably correct, but isn't the fundamental point that that quadrant of the city is underserved and therefore at present a challenge to improve? I don't think anyone would see this as a single station and short line extension project.

Agree about the capacity point, made similar arguments myself - the fact that league cup games don't sell out suggests that demand is not as enormous as some think - the curve is probably an odd one, with fairly intense demand along most of it rather than an enormous pool, i.e. of the people who want tickets, a high percentage of them want tickets for every league game, rather than the sort of 'tailing off' in demand that most events have.
 

liveforthereds

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I cannot speak for German fans but, historically, English fans have a record for trashing trains especially after games so, brand new Alstom 2 and 3 car trains arent going to be risked carrying footie fans and, there's a reason 'football specials' were eventually stopped by British Rail. They basically got wrecked trains back each Saturday which were only good for the scrappers.
Main Reason they stopped Football Specials was in 1995 the rail network was franchised off to private companies who 1 saw no benefit in running these types of train services, why you may ask reason being to run these services would mean having rolling stock sitting around for most of the year doing nothing meaning they are paying to have trains sitting doing nothing. In todays train market companies only have enough trains to cover the timetable as they rent the trains they use unlike in BR days when they owned the trains. Railways are basically split into 3 areas infrastructure (Network Rail) train operators and then a little know fact the leasing companies who own the trains. 2nd reason most football specials where put on by the clubs so they would be cheaper for the fans to get to games and usually they would only be used for major games like finals.

Now in Liverpool we run the Soccer bus from Sandhills to both grounds, it was a well used service a number of years back but today I don't know who well it is used. In Manchester - Utd run trains from Oxford Road station to the ground years ago it was 3 trains used to ferry fans back and forth today I am not sure what happens but I know there was talk of ripping up the Halt to make way for something else, they do have an advantage in today the trams are running and are quite frequent, we don't have that in Liverpool and it could be something Merseytravel and CC should revisit
 

dockers_strike

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On the other hand, I can't see light rail being the main method for away fans arriving. Derbies would be a particular challenge, but that is manageable - the Milan derby is not always a cheerful one, they just lay on 'red' and 'blue' trains. You are probably right about the challenges of the tradition of English fan culture, but on the other hand, weren't those all football specials intercity? A train from central Liverpool to Anfield would not even be 10 minutes, would it?

Regarding the overall transport infrastructure, you are probably correct, but isn't the fundamental point that that quadrant of the city is underserved and therefore at present a challenge to improve? I don't think anyone would see this as a single station and short line extension project.

Agree about the capacity point, made similar arguments myself - the fact that league cup games don't sell out suggests that demand is not as enormous as some think - the curve is probably an odd one, with fairly intense demand along most of it rather than an enormous pool, i.e. of the people who want tickets, a high percentage of them want tickets for every league game, rather than the sort of 'tailing off' in demand that most events have.
Why are fans suddenly going to jump on a train from say, Lime Street, when they can either share a taxi or get on a bus? Trains wouldnt be every 10 minutes, they'd have to compete with normal train movements into and out of the station and ability to get on the branch line. Train operators will not be very happy at having their timetable disrupted to accommodate these fan trains. The UK rail system is a hotch potch with Network Rail owning the infrastructure and rail companies running their trains.
 

Arminius

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Why are fans suddenly going to jump on a train from say, Lime Street, when they can either share a taxi or get on a bus? Trains wouldnt be every 10 minutes, they'd have to compete with normal train movements into and out of the station and ability to get on the branch line. Train operators will not be very happy at having their timetable disrupted to accommodate these fan trains. The UK rail system is a hotch potch with Network Rail owning the infrastructure and rail companies running their trains.
To make it work, the matchday 'window' would have to be optimized - which is managed in many other places, including where the lines are not owned by the train operators.

No question to make it work would require some bespoke arrangements at other stations. But in places where it has been put in place, it is fantastically convenient, I think the question of why they would answers itself when you see how a system like that can operate. When you can avoid 40 minutes of traffic with an 8 minute train ride, it is becomes compelling.
 

liveforthereds

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Why are fans suddenly going to jump on a train from say, Lime Street, when they can either share a taxi or get on a bus? Trains wouldnt be every 10 minutes, they'd have to compete with normal train movements into and out of the station and ability to get on the branch line. Train operators will not be very happy at having their timetable disrupted to accommodate these fan trains. The UK rail system is a hotch potch with Network Rail owning the infrastructure and rail companies running their trains.
New services along this line can easily be done as they don't have to all start in Lime Street some services can start at Edge Hill as there is a bay between Platforms one and two that could be reintroduced. The realty though is it would have to be service operated by the Northern franchise as MerseyRail run third rail traction. So unless network rail but down 3rd rail it would need to be diesel services.
 

liveforthereds

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Just to add as well as starting services at Edge Hill there is plenty of space there where they could have a Park and Ride scheme which could also help with the day to day congestion of traffic into the City Center
 

dockers_strike

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Main Reason they stopped Football Specials was in 1995 the rail network was franchised off to private companies who 1 saw no benefit in running these types of train services, why you may ask reason being to run these services would mean having rolling stock sitting around for most of the year doing nothing meaning they are paying to have trains sitting doing nothing. In todays train market companies only have enough trains to cover the timetable as they rent the trains they use unlike in BR days when they owned the trains. Railways are basically split into 3 areas infrastructure (Network Rail) train operators and then a little know fact the leasing companies who own the trains. 2nd reason most football specials where put on by the clubs so they would be cheaper for the fans to get to games and usually they would only be used for major games like finals.

Now in Liverpool we run the Soccer bus from Sandhills to both grounds, it was a well used service a number of years back but today I don't know who well it is used. In Manchester - Utd run trains from Oxford Road station to the ground years ago it was 3 trains used to ferry fans back and forth today I am not sure what happens but I know there was talk of ripping up the Halt to make way for something else, they do have an advantage in today the trams are running and are quite frequent, we don't have that in Liverpool and it could be something Merseytravel and CC should revisit
I stand by my statement that the main reason footie specials were axed is because they were regularly being trashed. Both BR and later, the franchises, knew they'd have no viable stock if they continued to provide them so yes, economics did come into it.

To make it work, the matchday 'window' would have to be optimized - which is managed in many other places, including where the lines are not owned by the train operators.

No question to make it work would require some bespoke arrangements at other stations. But in places where it has been put in place, it is fantastically convenient, I think the question of why they would answers itself when you see how a system like that can operate. When you can avoid 40 minutes of traffic with an 8 minute train ride, it is becomes compelling.
Im sorry but you're applying a European model to UK railways and with respect, that aint going to work. Once again, it wont be an 8 minute train journey despite the relatively short distance.

New services along this line can easily be done as they don't have to all start in Lime Street some services can start at Edge Hill as there is a bay between Platforms one and two that could be reintroduced. The realty though is it would have to be service operated by the Northern franchise as MerseyRail run third rail traction. So unless network rail but down 3rd rail it would need to be diesel services.
Yes, I realise they dont have to start from Lime Street. Irrespective of which station, people have to get there. More importantly, they have to be happy to get to the station as part of their journey planning.
 

Arminius

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Im sorry but you're applying a European model to UK railways and with respect, that aint going to work. Once again, it wont be an 8 minute train journey despite the relatively short distance.
Well, not just European - just about everywhere, including places with a model of rail operation much closer to the UK's than most of Europe. The critical point is that the system has to be adapted to realize the full benefit. If that doesn't happen, then I agree with you - just building a station and hoping for the best is probably pointless.

Based on recent observations of the UK, I suppose we can expect shovels to the ground in short order....
 

Kopstar

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Talks of 70,000 and 80,000 capacity was fanciful when this new stadium in Stanley Park was being considered. Anything over 65,000 and even that is going to be very difficult to achieve at Anfield. People go into fanciful mode talking about increasing the Kop. They ignore the buildings and Walton Breck immediately behind it.

ARE represents the only viable space for expansion, one the club needs to get right to give the best sight lines and capacity increase. 63,000 is, imvho, going to be the best the club can squeeze in.
If we're talking in terms of available space then I think increasing Anfield towards a capacity of 70k is certainly doable. There has long been talk of making the area around the stadium pedestrianised and redirecting the current Walton Breck Road traffic so that would solve the issue of expanding the Kop backwards. The alternative would be that you expand the Kop backwards over Walton Breck Road as they have done at Villa Park.

Of course, were you to introduce rail-seating/safe-standing then you could increase the capacity of the Kop by around 1.4 times its current capacity using the same square footage. If you were to increase the available square footage as well then dreams of a 20,000 capacity Kop would not be too fanciful. Together with increasing ARE to around 15,000 you'd be pushing over 68k.
 

Zoran

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Can anyone answer my query???? Why, when the team leave their changing room, do they line up against the wall on the away team side...why don't the line up , on the wall opposite their own changing room...it always looks so awkward..... (just an observation and I bet there's an obvious answer)
Better question would be, and I already asked this before (will ask the tour guy in May), why did they switch sides of the home dressing room? Even the tunnel is a bit closer to the away end (which will be moved to the corner linking with the Kenny stand when we do the Annie Road end), I thought we'd keep the home dressing room closer to the Kop (if we couldn't build more of a straight tunnel towards the TIA sign to be always visible to everyone heading out). Probably construction issues or whatever, I'm sure there's a good answer to it, just curious what it is.
 

dockers_strike

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Better question would be, and I already asked this before (will ask the tour guy in May), why did they switch sides of the home dressing room? Even the tunnel is a bit closer to the away end (which will be moved to the corner linking with the Kenny stand when we do the Annie Road end), I thought we'd keep the home dressing room closer to the Kop (if we couldn't build more of a straight tunnel towards the TIA sign to be always visible to everyone heading out). Probably construction issues or whatever, I'm sure there's a good answer to it, just curious what it is.
The tunnel was actually moved closer to the Kop end. I guess the question of designing the interior of the Main Stand facilities for the club had a say in these things. For example the home area has a warm up area which Im pretty certain the away team facilities do not have.
 

dockers_strike

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Can anyone answer my query???? Why, when the team leave their changing room, do they line up against the wall on the away team side...why don't the line up , on the wall opposite their own changing room...it always looks so awkward..... (just an observation and I bet there's an obvious answer)
We dont. For the warm up, the players just walk out en mass. For the team presentations, we line up in the tunnel, Kop side. Just watch this video.

 

Wilkored08

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We dont. For the warm up, the players just walk out en mass. For the team presentations, we line up in the tunnel, Kop side. Just watch this video.

[/QQU. Just an observation as why we use the opposite dressing room....I knew there would be a reason...cheers!
 

Wilkored08

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Just an observation... When we line up to go on the pitch...it looks a bit awkward to walk in front of the opponent, probably a type of mind games...I knew where we lined up, but just wondered why the opposite side to the dressing room.cheers anyway.
 

dockers_strike

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Is the reason for the tunnel being off center because when the ARE is expanded, the pitch length will be extended?
Premier League pitches are a standard size now and have been for the last 2 seasons. All pitches have to be 105m by 68m unless the stadium design cannot accommodate this ie old design and small pitch. PL pitches cannot be larger than these dimensions.

The tunnel is where it is as a nod to the position of the old tunnel position not being on the halfway line.
 

legalalien

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As an aside to last night's tumultuous game, I noticed that in the BBC Sport report the attendance is given as 55,212. I thought our capacity was around 52 or 3, 000. Have we had some work done to enlarge the capacity a bit, or has the BBC got it wrong?
 
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Mascot88

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As an aside to last night's tumultuous game, I noticed that in the BBC Sport report the attendance is given as 55,212. I thought our attendance was around 52 or 3, 000. Have we had some work done to enlarge the capacity a bit, or has the BBC got it wrong?
I think they are counting Van Dijk as 2000 people.
 

bazza66

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I would not expect any more work being done to Anfield for another couple of years as this Summer and next Summer the club have booked the Stadium out for extra events, so Anfield Rd Expansion maybe put back a few years.
Makes sense - there's outline PP isn't there, but nothing else?

As long as we don't aim for 3+ years of public consultation events. No, forget that, I'd accept that if we had some architectural drawings to keep us distracted:

(Traffic routes from Anfield Road end in red)

(Artist's image of the proposed 'Hodgson Nest' media centre, as viewed from Stanley Park car park)

(The proposed, Anfield Road, Moores-Parry club shop)
 



Zoran

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Was at the tour on Saturday, had a short chat with one of the tour guys (there were plenty as it was 24 hours before the Wolves game, the stadium had to be cleared by 5pm). He said that they're exploring ideas whether to build the Annie Road from scratch or raise a third tier. How to link it with the Main Stand. Also mentioned the possibility of removing the first row to make our pitch from 101m in length to 105m. Was glad to hear that. But yeah, he says that it could take a few years. Club is now focused on Kirkby and analyzing the success of the Main Stand and what to do with the Annie Road design wise.
 

Maria

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Was at the tour on Saturday, had a short chat with one of the tour guys (there were plenty as it was 24 hours before the Wolves game, the stadium had to be cleared by 5pm). He said that they're exploring ideas whether to build the Annie Road from scratch or raise a third tier. How to link it with the Main Stand. Also mentioned the possibility of removing the first row to make our pitch from 101m in length to 105m. Was glad to hear that. But yeah, he says that it could take a few years. Club is now focused on Kirkby and analyzing the success of the Main Stand and what to do with the Annie Road design wise.
That is good in a way, it does not mean that the owners will not expand at all, but is on the cards for the future.
 

liveforthereds

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Was at the tour on Saturday, had a short chat with one of the tour guys (there were plenty as it was 24 hours before the Wolves game, the stadium had to be cleared by 5pm). He said that they're exploring ideas whether to build the Annie Road from scratch or raise a third tier. How to link it with the Main Stand. Also mentioned the possibility of removing the first row to make our pitch from 101m in length to 105m. Was glad to hear that. But yeah, he says that it could take a few years. Club is now focused on Kirkby and analyzing the success of the Main Stand and what to do with the Annie Road design wise.
Would be good to see the pitch extended as well as full rebuild of the stand.
 

William Clarke

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New services along this line can easily be done as they don't have to all start in Lime Street some services can start at Edge Hill as there is a bay between Platforms one and two that could be reintroduced. The realty though is it would have to be service operated by the Northern franchise as MerseyRail run third rail traction. So unless network rail but down 3rd rail it would need to be diesel services.
If we are talking about an underground service, then diesel wouldn't be an option, I don't think.
 

liveforthereds

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If we are talking about an underground service, then diesel wouldn't be an option, I don't think.
Merseyrail can still run trains over this line it would just need a 3rd rail laying down, but I would have thought any services that where to run would be by a company that serves the Mainline. This line is fully above ground