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Asmir Begović (GK) - Stoke

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HarryFloyd

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lfc.eddie said:
We lost one leader and now going to scalp the other? Perhaps looking for a way to excuse ourselves when results don't come our way with - "we have new line of defence, give them time to bed in"
Why do I get a feeling that those words will turn out to be prophetic.
 


rab

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lfc.eddie said:
Everyone is going about replacing thr keeper, central defenders and all this is done in one season. That is going to cost us for sure. You don't dismantle the entire backline and goalkeeper in one window. It is suicide.

Rafa replace Henchoz with Carragher but kept Dudek in goal. Moved Dudek off for Reina the following season.

We lost one leader and now going to scalp the other? Perhaps looking for a way to excuse ourselves when results don't come our way with - "we have new line of defence, give them time to bed in"
Well you can't delay Carraghers retirement so we have to do something about changing the central defence. If Reina is itching for the move, and who could blame him, you then either have to keep a player whose been playing below his best for 2-3 years and that's unhappy about being denied a move to his boyhood club where he'd be challenging for titles or sell him and bring in someone new.

A lot of people point out how much we'll miss Reina's character around the dressing room if he goes but if we deny him a move to Barca and he reacts badly then who knows what effect that could have on other players. If he doesn't push to leave then great but if an offer comes in from Barca you'd imagine he'd be asking the club to find a deal that works so he can be off.
 

Clive

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I've heard people argue that Reina's poor form is down to disillusionment that his mates Rafa, Xabi, Mash, Torres, Mierelas et have been jettisoned. Well won't Pepe's departure have the same effect on the rest of the remaining group?

It's a bad sign to other players and supporters when you sell a player you'd ideally keep for a profit. That's why I'm against selling Pepe.
 

Kontra

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Hope in your heart said:
After that, we never really had a player able to thrive off these long balls as much as Torres. Luis for instance is a completely different player, who prefers to receive the ball in his feet. But since Sturridge has come in, we have gained much pace and strength again however, and given time and training, Pepe could pinge his balls towards Daniel with as much effect as when he did it with Torres.
Sturridge crossed my mind too. You are right about sheer power and pace of Rafas attack. If Sturridge develops the right way and if we can get one proper player instead of Downing we might be on the way of getting there (there = season 08/09) again.

Anyway I wouldn't put too much trust into this source anyway, so here is hoping Pepe will stay.
 

SirBillShankly

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Well, Pepe hasn't been at the top of his game for some time. He isn't as commanding or dominant in the air as Begovic. Don't get me wrong,I love Reina and will be sad to see him go but Begovic could well make us even more solid.

I would go as far to say he reminds me of big Ray Clemence.
 



Hope in your heart

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One question to all of you who think that Pepe is out of form, not as good as before etc: why are Barca interested in making him their new goalie then, according to you?

Do you think their scouts have tomatoes on their eyes, or do they want to weaken themselves with such an out-of-form goalie??
 

RichLFC

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Hope in your heart said:
One question to all of you who think that Pepe is out of form, not as good as before etc: why are Barca interested in making him their new goalie then?

Do they have tomatoes on their eyes, or do they want to weaken themselves with such an out-of-form goalie??
2 year contract. Stop gap until one of their main targets matures with experience. Ter Stegen appears to be on their radar for the long term

With Valdez leaving they probably want a safe option familiar with their methodology

Actually it may be the only reason why Reina might say no, the short term nature of the deal being offered. Doesn't speak of them having faith he's their permanent successor to valdez's role

It may be a more upmarket goalie version of why we seem to be looking at kolo Toure except Reina won't be free, but the fee they will be offering for Reina won't be that high unfortunately. Up to Ayre and co to make sure we won't be bullied but the culture of the club when it comes to selling has been bend over and take it up the arse because 'no ones bigger than the club'. Even if players leave a to win trophies with better teams. Something dont quite compute there for me but why let that get in the way of a crappy cliche?

Having said that I expect us to be a lot better dealing with set plays next season with a new CB and if we sign begovic at the very least. A consistent problem that but it may be one we might be able to solve. Just hope it doesn't open up others in turn but we will see
 

Nikola

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Hope in your heart said:
One question to all of you who think that Pepe is out of form, not as good as before etc: why are Barca interested in making him their new goalie then, according to you?

Do you think their scouts have tomatoes on their eyes, or do they want to weaken themselves with such an out-of-form goalie??
Well, Valdes isn't exactly a quality 'keeper, mate, to put it as mildly as I can and he wants to leave. Pepe knows what Barca is all about, having trained there as a kid, he also knows a lot of their players from national team. Also, they like to bring back their players from abroad once they matured. I don't think there is a goalkeeper in the world who ticks as many Barca's boxes as Pepe. As Rich said, he's the safest of options.
 

Cortez

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Hope in your heart said:
One question to all of you who think that Pepe is out of form, not as good as before etc: why are Barca interested in making him their new goalie then, according to you?

Do you think their scouts have tomatoes on their eyes, or do they want to weaken themselves with such an out-of-form goalie??
This seems like a statement rather than a question. It seems like you're trying to say that because Barca - a quality side - are in for him, he hasn't been getting gradually worse for the last 2 or 3 seasons. Until his recent run of good form over the last couple of months, since the Barca chatter started, he has quite obviously been playing poorly and looked like he didn't care all that much. I don't have to list, I'm sure, just how many players top clubs have signed who haven't been what the clubs thought they were. He's Spain's number 2, a Barca boy, very much liked in Spain and has a great reputation built up over the Rafa years.

Barca being in for him doesn't change the fact that his saves to shot ratio has been plummeting from being some of the best in the league, to one of the worst in the league. It doesn't mean he hasn't cost us points by not making saves he's reasonably expected to. It sure doesn't mean that those clangers haven't happened. He's still a good keeper, but he's not what he once was. Barca being in for him doesn't change that.
 

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It wasn't a statement, it was a question.

Ok, so if I understand you guys well, he's good enough for Barca (safe short/middle-term option), but not good enough anymore for LFC? Right?

Edit: sorry for taking the focus away from Begovic btw, but discussing Begovic as our new potential goalie means discussing Reina as well imo...
 



Kontra

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Back to Begovic, did some more digging and in one other article unrelated to Begovic directly but to young prodigy Halilovic, the journalist mentioned, among other things, that Dzeko&co will get time off during friendlies with Oman and Latvia while Begovic might not feature since he might fly back to England to sign a contract with his new club. Does not say which club or if it's definite he will fly back to England.

Article for those who speak the language is here
 

Cortez

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Hope in your heart said:
It wasn't a statement, it was a question.
Okay then. I've no idea. I've no idea why Barca want him. I'd wager that they want an experienced goalkeeper - one who is liked, grew up at the club, and is part of the national team and speaks the language - to act as a stop gap for one of the world's brightest talents in Ter Stegen, who doesn't speak the language. That's just a guess.

Ok, so if I understand you guys well, he's good enough for Barca (safe short/middle-term option), but not good enough anymore for LFC? Right?
At his best, he's definitely good enough for LFC. I'm saying I don't think he has been at his best for a very long time. Do you think that he has?
 

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Cortez said:
Okay then. I've no idea. I've no idea why Barca want him. I'd wager that they want an experienced goalkeeper - one who is liked, grew up at the club, and is part of the national team and speaks the language - to act as a stop gap for one of the world's brightest talents in Ter Stegen, who doesn't speak the language. That's just a guess.

At his best, he's definitely good enough for LFC. I'm saying I don't think he has been at his best for a very long time. Do you think that he has?
He has had difficult times during Rafa's last season (who hadn't?), then under Hodgson and at times with Kenny. This season however, I've found him pretty solid, bar two/three blunders happening in the first part of the season.

Lately, I've found him outstanding.
 

Cortez

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We're in agreement then. Really good in the last few games, few months even. But under the previous three managers, during the 2009/10, 10/11, 11/13 and at least the first half of this season was poor (as the table below shows). In fact, he declined gradually over those seasons.



I know it's almost sacrilegious to some to talk about Reina like this, but I think some are so defensive of him that they miss the obvious, which is that bar the last little while (and there's an argument about why that is) he's not the keeper he once was. With that in mind, and another club waiting in the wings, it might be worth moving on from him whilst he till commands a transfer fee. It's not about Pepe the man, he's quite clearly awesome.
 



lfc.eddie

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rab said:
A lot of people point out how much we'll miss Reina's character around the dressing room if he goes but if we deny him a move to Barca and he reacts badly then who knows what effect that could have on other players. If he doesn't push to leave then great but if an offer comes in from Barca you'd imagine he'd be asking the club to find a deal that works so he can be off.
You don't give the man enough credit. We have been selling our top players for nearly every single season, and if we are serious about wanting to mount a challenge, wanting depth of quality I suggest we should stop thinking like that. Don't see Alonso throwing hissy fit after knowing he was thrown into the market to swap for Barry.

His character is what made him who he is, and if he is disruptive, it would have happened during Hodgson's reign. At that time he is very much as valuable in the market as he is today, if not more.

I seriously would love to not hear this line - "the club is bigger than one man" cliche in this situation.
 

Cortez

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That all said, I don't want him to go unless we're getting somebody like Begovic or on that level. Getting in Vorm just isn't going to cut it. He has 3 years left on his contract, so we hold the cards. Whilst I'm more than open to him being replaced, if we're looking at players like Vorm and not exceptionally good keepers like Adler or Begovic, then he should be made to stay until we're in a position to get one. Pragmatism works both ways. It's either to out benefit - and I believe getting a good fee and a keeper like Begovic is in our interest - or it isn't. Getting some one season wonder isn't to out benefit.
 

rab

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lfc.eddie said:
You don't give the man enough credit. We have been selling our top players for nearly every single season, and if we are serious about wanting to mount a challenge, wanting depth of quality I suggest we should stop thinking like that. Don't see Alonso throwing hissy fit after knowing he was thrown into the market to swap for Barry.

His character is what made him who he is, and if he is disruptive, it would have happened during Hodgson's reign. At that time he is very much as valuable in the market as he is today, if not more.

I seriously would love to not hear this line - "the club is bigger than one man" cliche in this situation.
Alonso was different, we were trying to push him out rather than his boyhood club trying to buy him back. I can't imagine Pepe kicking off if he we denied him the chance of a move but I'd imagine there would be some niggling resentment or disappointment as it's unlikely he'd ever get that opportunity again.

He didn't have the chance to go back to Barca during Hodgesons reign so you can't say having been through that period without angling to leave that he won't be tempted now. He's a very good keeper but I wouldn't say he's world class, there's at least four keepers ahead of him in the pecking order for Spain these days for a start.

I'm not saying I want him gone but if he wanted the Barca move to happen and we could agree a fee that allows us to purchase a suitable replacement then I'd say that was preferable to denying the player his dream move and keeping someone whose form has been patchy for the last three seasons just because he's a character around the dressing room.
 

rab

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Hope in your heart said:
One question to all of you who think that Pepe is out of form, not as good as before etc: why are Barca interested in making him their new goalie then, according to you?

Do you think their scouts have tomatoes on their eyes, or do they want to weaken themselves with such an out-of-form goalie??
I'd guess that it's because they are being forced to change keeper with Valdes leaving. Valdes won't command a huge fee and with the likes of Neymar rumoured to be arriving this summer they'll see Reina as the best like for like and cost for cost replacement around so as not to eat into their spending plans too much.

Add in he's Spanish and from Barcelona originally so he shouldn't have any problems settling in. He's been trained in the way they like their keepers to play, he's stagnated at Liverpool in the last couple of seasons and could perhaps be keen for a new challenge given our decline in recent seasons. They also know that former graduates of their youth system on the whole all seem to want to go back there so they can rely on the emotional draw as well as the draw of challenging titles to get him pushing for the move and therefore not have to pay way over the odds.

I don't think anyone is doubting Reina's quality even if his performances have not been of the same standard for the last two or three seasons so given all these factors I think that's why they want him.
 

funkynoise74

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I had a chat to few colleagues of mine who are season ticket holders at Stoke, and they rate Begovic highly. They said he commands his area well, quite vocal and is good at coming for crosses and shot stopping. Might be worth pursuing if Reina does decide to leave for Barca.
 



Lucas

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The Echo is reporting that we aren't even after him, time to close up for now?

[URL="http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/asmir-begovic-liverpool-fc-move-4011998"]http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/asmir-begovic-liverpool-fc-move-4011998[/url]



But Stoke have moved swiftly to dampen such claims, and the ECHO understands that Liverpool are not preparing a move for Begovic at this stage, even if current first-choice 'keeper Pepe Reina leaves the club.
 

Cortez

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I think that comes from the tweet posted by Neil from the echo, who was guessing based on his understanding that Vorm was number 1 choice last season.

Edit. Sorry, on phone, just clicked link.
 

Lucas

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Cortez said:
I think that comes from the tweet posted by Neil from the echo, who was guessing based on his understanding that Vorm was number 1 choice last season.

Edit. Sorry, on phone, just clicked link.
Ah you might be right, we'll see how it progresses. Personally I'd be more happy to get Mignolet as he's far better at playing with his feet, whereas Begovic always looks slightly nervous when it's put onto his wrong foot.
 

i_still_miss_fowler

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Cortez said:
We're in agreement then. Really good in the last few games, few months even. But under the previous three managers, during the 2009/10, 10/11, 11/13 and at least the first half of this season was poor (as the table below shows). In fact, he declined gradually over those seasons.



I know it's almost sacrilegious to some to talk about Reina like this, but I think some are so defensive of him that they miss the obvious, which is that bar the last little while (and there's an argument about why that is) he's not the keeper he once was. With that in mind, and another club waiting in the wings, it might be worth moving on from him whilst he till commands a transfer fee. It's not about Pepe the man, he's quite clearly awesome.
I would always offer a word of caution with statistics when applied to keepers. They can tell you useful things like if a keeper prefers to punch or hold onto the ball, or if they are good in the air like Begovic clearly is etc but frequently their number reflects the team rather than the individual.

Take the stats you list above, it appears like Begovic is far better but we all know Stoke defend differently to Liverpool. This season Stoke conceded over 106 more shots, yet only differed by 14 for the number on target.

Teams are not worse at shooting, but teams often get frustrated, shoot from distance and are often limited to space as men crowd the box. (in other words they park the bus). Begovic making higher number of saves for shots in general means a lot less then we think it does as things are not equal.

One way to illustrate this. Take shots on target : Goals (which surely is more important than saves from all shots). Begovic saved 70.8% of shots on target. Pepe 70.9 %.

The difference in overall saves (Begovic saving far more off target shots) is therefore likely an effect of the defense/tactics, really than Pepe unable to save off target shots.
 

therealkeano1

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Why would reina want to go to barca. Did they not kick him out to villareal. If it was Ath Madrid I'd understand as ye grew up watching them but I don't think reina would fuss over barca. Begovic would be a excellent replacement.
 



soberphobia

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Lucas said:
The Echo is reporting that we aren't even after him, time to close up for now?

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/asmir-begovic-liverpool-fc-move-4011998
I read that in the echo and was surprised. It seems that the whole thing (Begovic link) is manufactured by a journalist Begovic hadn't even spoken to. If Barca were after Reina it would seem likely they would of contacted us a while back as they have known Valdes is going for a long time.

The longer the window stays open and no links come out the less likely any movement has of happening. Although you never really know with transfers it isa weird world but the Echo don't get it wrong very often.
 

Kontra

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soberphobia said:
I read that in the echo and was surprised. It seems that the whole thing (Begovic link) is manufactured by a journalist Begovic hadn't even spoken to. If Barca were after Reina it would seem likely they would of contacted us a while back as they have known Valdes is going for a long time.

The longer the window stays open and no links come out the less likely any movement has of happening. Although you never really know with transfers it isa weird world but the Echo don't get it wrong very often.
I have read the original article with so called "interview" and explained what they did how they fabricated the statement on the previous page. He never had that interview.
 

Herb

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If we aren't even looking at him then I'm slightly disappointed. Think he already is a top keeper and I imagine he will end up at Arsenal now.
 

rippedshorts

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i_still_miss_fowler said:
I would always offer a word of caution with statistics when applied to keepers. They can tell you useful things like if a keeper prefers to punch or hold onto the ball, or if they are good in the air like Begovic clearly is etc but frequently their number reflects the team rather than the individual.

Take the stats you list above, it appears like Begovic is far better but we all know Stoke defend differently to Liverpool. This season Stoke conceded over 106 more shots, yet only differed by 14 for the number on target.

Teams are not worse at shooting, but teams often get frustrated, shoot from distance and are often limited to space as men crowd the box. (in other words they park the bus). Begovic making higher number of saves for shots in general means a lot less then we think it does as things are not equal.

One way to illustrate this. Take shots on target : Goals (which surely is more important than saves from all shots). Begovic saved 70.8% of shots on target. Pepe 70.9 %.

The difference in overall saves (Begovic saving far more off target shots) is therefore likely an effect of the defense/tactics, really than Pepe unable to save off target shots.
Totally agree with your assessment of to not look at the stats for goalkeepers. Its not fair since not all shots are properly aimed at, and straight at the keeper.

With that said however, based on the few times I've seen Begovic plays, I think he offers:
1. Commanding presence on the back line
2. Great aerial ability and confidence when dealing with crosses
3. Great shot stopping ability (more likely to save than Reina)

I think it's also worth noting that Reina managed to pick up his form at the later part of the season.

I think, we should pursue Begovic. If Reina leaves, Begovic should be number 1 target since I think he's a better keeper than Reina; otherwise, focus on the 2 CBs first.
 

mr mustard

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About the shot stopping stats.... Does it say from where the shots were taken?

I presume that Stoke are more likely to defend with 11 men. That would mean that a lot of the shots from their oppositions would come from outside of the penalty area.

We, on the other hand, attack with a lot of players and are vulnarable to counter attacks. The shots that Reina have faced might just be harder ones to save.

Is it possible to find some sort of graph of the shots the two keepers have faced?
 



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