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Conspiracy? Bias? Dumb luck? Why do LFC get shit decisions?

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Quicksand

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Anyone up for this? At least it will prove it once and for all...................or will it?

Heliocentrism, the flat-earthers claim, is a widespread government conspiracy.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6828041/Flat-Earthers-planning-trip-Antarctica-reach-end-world.html

You might also find some people on the trip that you feel you know already...
Why?
I get your scepticism about the content of the thread, your unwillingness to admit that certain biases exist, your already stated views are quite clear....
So why do this? Does it make you feel a bit superior, as you think you have an understanding of how things are in football and those of us who question the veracity and non partisan nature of media and officials are beneath argument?
If all you can be bothered doing is adding tedious links to nonsense, then why bother?
Easier to deride than engage?
 

epsomred

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Why?
I get your scepticism about the content of the thread, your unwillingness to admit that certain biases exist, your already stated views are quite clear....
So why do this? Does it make you feel a bit superior, as you think you have an understanding of how things are in football and those of us who question the veracity and non partisan nature of media and officials are beneath argument?
If all you can be bothered doing is adding tedious links to nonsense, then why bother?
Easier to deride than engage?
I’m going to stick my head above the parapet and suggest that maybe, just maybe @Rambler was making a little joke. Not a jibe or an attempt to feel superior, just a bit of humour for his fellow lfc fans. Try lightening up every now and then, you will live longer.
 

Quicksand

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I’m going to stick my head above the parapet and suggest that maybe, just maybe @Rambler was making a little joke. Not a jibe or an attempt to feel superior, just a bit of humour for his fellow lfc fans. Try lightening up every now and then, you will live longer.
I am around for a while, long enough to discern a joke from a smug jibe.
 

sms1986

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Anyone watch 'behind the curve' about the flat earthers? Some guy Mark Sargent seems to be the new leader. They tried to prove the earth is flat using a laser and some basic target boards and seemed to find that it was curved. Scratching their heads, back to the drawing board lol
I'm not actually sure if the below is real or not!

 



Mascot88

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Anyone watch 'behind the curve' about the flat earthers? Some guy Mark Sargent seems to be the new leader. They tried to prove the earth is flat using a laser and some basic target boards and seemed to find that it was curved. Scratching their heads, back to the drawing board lol
Watched tonight. Really great documentary.

There was also the guy who spent $20,000 buying a precision gyroscope to disprove the spin of the earth, and only proved it was in fact spinning. Was he deterred? Was he fuck :celebrating::celebrating::celebrating::-(
 

Zinedine Biscan

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Watched tonight. Really great documentary.

There was also the guy who spent $20,000 buying a precision gyroscope to disprove the spin of the earth, and only proved it was in fact spinning. Was he deterred? Was he fuck :celebrating::celebrating::celebrating::-(
Funny, but depressing. When I hear this stuff I always feel like the Professor in Futurama, when he gets so dispirited by humanity he announces "I don't want to live on this world any more" and fires himself into space.

That tweet just above is hilarious as well. Having members all around the circle doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
 

Irishanfield

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Funny, but depressing. When I hear this stuff I always feel like the Professor in Futurama, when he gets so dispirited by humanity he announces "I don't want to live on this world any more" and fires himself into space.

That tweet just above is hilarious as well. Having members all around the circle doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
Obviously it's a flat globe though
 

SBYM

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I always like Eddie Bravo when he joins Joe Rogan.
He is so out there.
I‘m not sure if there is a conspiracy theory he doesn‘t like.
Why do you think the earth is flat, Eddie?
Because I'm crazy.
That's not an argument.
But I'm craaaaaaaay-zeeeeeeeeeeeeee maaaaaaaaaaannnnnnn....
 



RaoulDuke

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Why do you think the earth is flat, Eddie?
Because I'm crazy.
That's not an argument.
But I'm craaaaaaaay-zeeeeeeeeeeeeee maaaaaaaaaaannnnnnn....
Last Rogan podcast with Alex Jones was insane.
Eddie pretends to choke Alex out as a joke and then stops.
Alex Jones insists:
„Come on. Let‘s do it. Let‘s not be pussies. Choke me out!“
 



FilthyBloke

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Although I don’t think we are treated unfairly nor do I think there is a grand conspiracy against us, what I would say is the spurs game last year stunk of something only Jesse Ventura could explain.
Another reason I want to batter them this Sunday.
 

Spitfire

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Oh if only it was that simple.
It pretty much is....The team I play for has a cross section of supporters for but not limited to:

City
Arsenal
United
Spurs
Everton
Brighton
Derby and
Liverpool

At any given post match beer you can be sure that more than one group or supporters of a club are complaining or moaning about anyone of the following:

Fixtures
Ref Decisions
Effects of international breaks (its always worst for them - the Brighton and Derby supporters exlcuded)
FFP
The list goes on...........

This is why I like Klopp - he's not in the business of excuses............
 

Scott Jones

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Klopp has complained a couple of times about decisions he cannot understand at all,whether he thinks they're just wank officials who knows but the point is that he has mentioned it,he also said his comments will be mocked as moaning and an excuse rather than really being looked in to and criticising a referee every fucking now and then,seems fair.
 

epsomred

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It pretty much is....The team I play for has a cross section of supporters for but not limited to:

City
Arsenal
United
Spurs
Everton
Brighton
Derby and
Liverpool

At any given post match beer you can be sure that more than one group or supporters of a club are complaining or moaning about anyone of the following:

Fixtures
Ref Decisions
Effects of international breaks (its always worst for them - the Brighton and Derby supporters exlcuded)
FFP
The list goes on...........

This is why I like Klopp - he's not in the business of excuses............
Spitfire
I fully agree with you but we are up to page 15 of a thread full of people who think it is vastly more complicated than that. “Corrupt” refs and Murdoch orchestrated media bias are the current favourite excuses as to why we haven’t won the league in 30 years. Personally I can’t stand it, just adds fuel to the “always the victims” shit we get at every way ground. I’m with you and Jurgen, if we win anything it’s because we deserved it and if we lose we weren’t good enough.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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For the record not a single post on here appears to be saying this (whatever you want to term it) is the one and only reason we haven't won the league. Despite several references to how embarrassing it is nobody appears to be saying it.
 



epsomred

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Fa
For the record not a single post on here appears to be saying this (whatever you want to term it) is the one and only reason we haven't won the league. Despite several references to how embarrassing it is nobody appears to be saying it.
Fair point. I think there are only 3 posters @jaffod, @Quicksand and @Dane who are repeatedly claiming that it is not a fair fight and I don’t think any of them are citing this as the only reason we haven’t won the league in 30 years so yes you’re right I should have said “alongside other reasons, orchestrated media bias and corrupt refs” are the current favourite excuses” .

I think my wider point still stands that in my opinion these baseless allegations embarrass the rest of us and contribute to anti lfc sentiment from other fans.
 

Dane

NEXT!
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Fa

Fair point. I think there are only 3 posters @jaffod, @Quicksand and @Dane who are repeatedly claiming that it is not a fair fight
It only appears as repeatedly, because those comments are always countered.
Leading to an exchange of views, commonly referred to as a debate.

I think my wider point still stands that in my opinion these baseless allegations embarrass the rest of us and contribute to anti lfc sentiment from other fans.
Baseless in your opinion.
It may well be viewed that dismissing concerns over unfair treatment, basically shrugging and accepting it is equally embarrassing.

And, here we go again :J
 
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epsomred

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It only appears as repeatedly, because those comments are always countered.
Leading to an exchange of views, commonly referred to as a debate.



Baseless in your opinion.
It may well be viewed that dismissing concerns over unfair treatment, basically shrugging and accepting it is equally embarrassing.

And, here we go again :J
Ok let’s bring this to a conclusion as I am sure it is getting dull for everybody else. In simple factual terms (not your subjective opinion) what verifiable objective evidence do you have that referring officials are bias against LFC ?
 

Dane

NEXT!
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Ok let’s bring this to a conclusion as I am sure it is getting dull for everybody else. In simple factual terms (not your subjective opinion) what verifiable objective evidence do you have that referring officials are bias against LFC ?
Do something in one post that 15 pages hasn't achieved?

I cant provide evidence, as that would require proof.
Similarly you cant disprove apparent favourable or bias decisions, that would also require proof.
Both sides are subjective opinions, and will more than likely remain that way.

If people find it dull, there are hundreds of other threads they can visit instead.
 

Quicksand

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Ok let’s bring this to a conclusion as I am sure it is getting dull for everybody else. In simple factual terms (not your subjective opinion) what verifiable objective evidence do you have that referring officials are bias against LFC ?
You originally reckoned the Murdoch and corruption arguments are being used to explain why we have not won the league. You retracted that when naming 3 members, myself included. But I dont understand why you made the original statement. I dont think anyone is saying that. Its a little unfair to corall our argument into nonsense, even if you revisited it later?

Regarding conclusion.......
No. Not going to just lay down arms to come to a conclusion for convenience. This thread is designed for debate on the biases that exist. It has thus far fulfilled its purpose insofar as the cheap jibes regarding so called conspiracy theorists are not derailing other threads.

Liverpool have not won the league because they have not been good enough. Thats not the debate from my viewpoint. I am lucky enough to have watched football from the seventies on, when we were great. The demise has been horrendous, despite some peak periods when we dared to dream again. But good enough? No.

Now, all that said the media bias continues. Like it or not Murdoch has fuelled the media narrative for a couple of decades now, including SKY. Loads of references to it in this thread.
Its been explained before, and I am fed up explaining the points over and over. So, I have offered argument with examples, perhaps without proof per say, but with what could be seen as reasonable evidence. What proof can you offer that I am wrong? Just more opinion maybe? Please dont use the argument from Blue Moon or other fan sites. That doesnt equalise the issue.

Food for thought?
Is it not slightly worrying that we are concerned about a fair game on Sunday next, particularly after Kane and the officials show at Anfield last year. Arguably two decisions in Spurs favour that made little sense. Particularly how they were handled.
I hope fairness prevails, but the fact remains, that visit of Spurs was hardly a level playing pitch.
I hope your "conclusion" comment isnt an attempt to close the debate?
 



Anfield rd Dreamer

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As nobody at all asked for it here is a summary of what I believe.

1; There is no organised conspiracy targeting LFC trying to hold us back.

2; There is general corruption in the game. Authority figures willing to bend or break rules in unethical ways in exchange for some form of game. Look at the legal bodies assisting City, Fifa officials, Redknap and Allardyce for recent examples. This will not necessarily be targeted against LFC but some corruption in the game will help or hinder us.

3; A large part of the media in this country over the last few decades has been controlled by a man who openly hates and dispises LFC and Scousers. There's been a negative portrayal of LFC and Scousers repeated so often that it's become commonly accepted. If the overriding media narrative is Scenario A not many stories regarding Scenario B will exist. Those stories aren't wanted, media cater to what sells. In the end even "neutral" sources like Match of the Day end up feeling quite LFC with their choices of what to discuss and highlight.

4; There's been a political push to demonize Merseyside and paint our people as trouble makers, the guilty, horrible low life's who always complain about being the victims when we really have the best of reasons to protest. This smear campaign is older than me and I'm in my mid thirties. Most have known no other stereotype.

5; Referees are human beings. Even being 100% honest and virtuous in their motivations their ability to make decisions will be influenced by what they know and believe going into games. Same with other authority figures acting as decision makers. If going into a game you've heard nothing but stories all over the media about Salah or Suarez diving you're going to be more careful awarding penalties. As one example. Klopp remarked about the number of penalties incorrectly turned down for us on a run didn't he? Being influenced by public opinion and the media is just simply something that happens with human beings. In my job we receive specific training to try and spot ourselves doing it to try and counteract it.

6; Referees can literally have their careers affected by how the media reacts to big calls that turn out to be incorrect. The more media hoohah the more likely they'll get demoted a league or two or less likely to be called up for international games. This isn't fair on referees but you damn well know they understand it. Due to this bigger clubs have tended to get more contentious decisions go their way than smaller clubs. Studies have always highlighted that as a general rule. And it makes sense. What's the bigger story? Burnley robbed of 12th place due to penalty not being awarded? Or United denied Champions League spot due to referee error? It's always going to effect the game. And no it doesn't all balance out and it never will I don't even know how people can really believe that.

7; Although the media are quick to call attention to many of the big sides suffering due to big calls it doesn't seem to happen in our favour. An incident when a player of ours goes down a little easily under contact will be debated as a dive and labelled as one for days in articles. Bad calls in favour of big clubs get glossed over but ours get highlighted for weeks. The benefit other big clubs get over media influence on officials seems to work the other way on us.

8; For a long time whilst Ferguson was at United he had far too much influence over the officials. Many have actually spoken about it since. Rafa bravely(/naively?) Tried to combat this at the time and the pushback turned him into a laughing stock. As our main rivals this influence did have negative effects on us as it had positive effects on them. We weren't great back then but it didn't help to not be on a level playing field either.

9; Several times over the years there has been tables created trying to see the influence on incorrect official decisions on the table. Consistently LFC suffer quite badly on those tables. I haven't seen them all but I must have seen at least 5 over the last 10-15 years. I don't remember seeing one without us being worst done by in the league. Once or twice ok but at least a 3rd?

So they're my beliefs. Call me a crackpot if you like I don't care.
 

sms1986

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As nobody at all asked for it here is a summary of what I believe.

1; There is no organised conspiracy targeting LFC trying to hold us back.
I think we all agree on this point.

2; There is general corruption in the game. Authority figures willing to bend or break rules in unethical ways in exchange for some form of game. Look at the legal bodies assisting City, Fifa officials, Redknap and Allardyce for recent examples. This will not necessarily be targeted against LFC but some corruption in the game will help or hinder us.
Again, I think we all agree on this one.

3; A large part of the media in this country over the last few decades has been controlled by a man who openly hates and dispises LFC and Scousers. There's been a negative portrayal of LFC and Scousers repeated so often that it's become commonly accepted. If the overriding media narrative is Scenario A not many stories regarding Scenario B will exist. Those stories aren't wanted, media cater to what sells. In the end even "neutral" sources like Match of the Day end up feeling quite LFC with their choices of what to discuss and highlight.
Again, I agree, although Murdoch generally hates all working class people.

4; There's been a political push to demonize Merseyside and paint our people as trouble makers, the guilty, horrible low life's who always complain about being the victims when we really have the best of reasons to protest. This smear campaign is older than me and I'm in my mid thirties. Most have known no other stereotype.
This is part of the general anti-working class sentiment found in the conservative media.

5; Referees are human beings. Even being 100% honest and virtuous in their motivations their ability to make decisions will be influenced by what they know and believe going into games. Same with other authority figures acting as decision makers. If going into a game you've heard nothing but stories all over the media about Salah or Suarez diving you're going to be more careful awarding penalties. As one example. Klopp remarked about the number of penalties incorrectly turned down for us on a run didn't he? Being influenced by public opinion and the media is just simply something that happens with human beings. In my job we receive specific training to try and spot ourselves doing it to try and counteract it.
I agree with this. I believe most mistakes by refs are due to human error rather than malice.

6; Referees can literally have their careers affected by how the media reacts to big calls that turn out to be incorrect. The more media hoohah the more likely they'll get demoted a league or two or less likely to be called up for international games. This isn't fair on referees but you damn well know they understand it. Due to this bigger clubs have tended to get more contentious decisions go their way than smaller clubs. Studies have always highlighted that as a general rule. And it makes sense. What's the bigger story? Burnley robbed of 12th place due to penalty not being awarded? Or United denied Champions League spot due to referee error? It's always going to effect the game. And no it doesn't all balance out and it never will I don't even know how people can really believe that.
I agree with this. I want to add that in the "unluckiness table", Stoke got relegated instead of Huddersfield which is a lot more damaging to them than losing 12 points was to us. I personally couldn't care less about Stoke, but whilst we were the unluckiest big team, I would say that Stoke were the unluckiest overall.

7; Although the media are quick to call attention to many of the big sides suffering due to big calls it doesn't seem to happen in our favour. An incident when a player of ours goes down a little easily under contact will be debated as a dive and labelled as one for days in articles. Bad calls in favour of big clubs get glossed over but ours get highlighted for weeks. The benefit other big clubs get over media influence on officials seems to work the other way on us.
I think other fans would disagree with this, we're always going to notice it more when it's against our own team.

8; For a long time whilst Ferguson was at United he had far too much influence over the officials. Many have actually spoken about it since. Rafa bravely(/naively?) Tried to combat this at the time and the pushback turned him into a laughing stock. As our main rivals this influence did have negative effects on us as it had positive effects on them. We weren't great back then but it didn't help to not be on a level playing field either.
I guess I can't really disagree with this.

9; Several times over the years there has been tables created trying to see the influence on incorrect official decisions on the table. Consistently LFC suffer quite badly on those tables. I haven't seen them all but I must have seen at least 5 over the last 10-15 years. I don't remember seeing one without us being worst done by in the league. Once or twice ok but at least a 3rd?
I think you mentioned these tables before in the thread, although I've only seen the one that got a lot of publicity. If someone could link to them, it would be interesting to see them.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I think we all agree on this point.



Again, I think we all agree on this one.



Again, I agree, although Murdoch generally hates all working class people.



This is part of the general anti-working class sentiment found in the conservative media.



I agree with this. I believe most mistakes by refs are due to human error rather than malice.



I agree with this. I want to add that in the "unluckiness table", Stoke got relegated instead of Huddersfield which is a lot more damaging to them than losing 12 points was to us. I personally couldn't care less about Stoke, but whilst we were the unluckiest big team, I would say that Stoke were the unluckiest overall.



I think other fans would disagree with this, we're always going to notice it more when it's against our own team.



I guess I can't really disagree with this.



I think you mentioned these tables before in the thread, although I've only seen the one that got a lot of publicity. If someone could link to them, it would be interesting to see them.
The problem with the tables are they are all called different things, done by different people on different platforms. It's hard to track them down years later. There are ones from last year that don't take into account deflections and stuff though. It was called luck table, just based on how lucky you are to get the correct calls or bad calls in your favour.
 

epsomred

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As nobody at all asked for it here is a summary of what I believe.

1; There is no organised conspiracy targeting LFC trying to hold us back.

2; There is general corruption in the game. Authority figures willing to bend or break rules in unethical ways in exchange for some form of game. Look at the legal bodies assisting City, Fifa officials, Redknap and Allardyce for recent examples. This will not necessarily be targeted against LFC but some corruption in the game will help or hinder us.

3; A large part of the media in this country over the last few decades has been controlled by a man who openly hates and dispises LFC and Scousers. There's been a negative portrayal of LFC and Scousers repeated so often that it's become commonly accepted. If the overriding media narrative is Scenario A not many stories regarding Scenario B will exist. Those stories aren't wanted, media cater to what sells. In the end even "neutral" sources like Match of the Day end up feeling quite LFC with their choices of what to discuss and highlight.

4; There's been a political push to demonize Merseyside and paint our people as trouble makers, the guilty, horrible low life's who always complain about being the victims when we really have the best of reasons to protest. This smear campaign is older than me and I'm in my mid thirties. Most have known no other stereotype.

5; Referees are human beings. Even being 100% honest and virtuous in their motivations their ability to make decisions will be influenced by what they know and believe going into games. Same with other authority figures acting as decision makers. If going into a game you've heard nothing but stories all over the media about Salah or Suarez diving you're going to be more careful awarding penalties. As one example. Klopp remarked about the number of penalties incorrectly turned down for us on a run didn't he? Being influenced by public opinion and the media is just simply something that happens with human beings. In my job we receive specific training to try and spot ourselves doing it to try and counteract it.

6; Referees can literally have their careers affected by how the media reacts to big calls that turn out to be incorrect. The more media hoohah the more likely they'll get demoted a league or two or less likely to be called up for international games. This isn't fair on referees but you damn well know they understand it. Due to this bigger clubs have tended to get more contentious decisions go their way than smaller clubs. Studies have always highlighted that as a general rule. And it makes sense. What's the bigger story? Burnley robbed of 12th place due to penalty not being awarded? Or United denied Champions League spot due to referee error? It's always going to effect the game. And no it doesn't all balance out and it never will I don't even know how people can really believe that.

7; Although the media are quick to call attention to many of the big sides suffering due to big calls it doesn't seem to happen in our favour. An incident when a player of ours goes down a little easily under contact will be debated as a dive and labelled as one for days in articles. Bad calls in favour of big clubs get glossed over but ours get highlighted for weeks. The benefit other big clubs get over media influence on officials seems to work the other way on us.

8; For a long time whilst Ferguson was at United he had far too much influence over the officials. Many have actually spoken about it since. Rafa bravely(/naively?) Tried to combat this at the time and the pushback turned him into a laughing stock. As our main rivals this influence did have negative effects on us as it had positive effects on them. We weren't great back then but it didn't help to not be on a level playing field either.

9; Several times over the years there has been tables created trying to see the influence on incorrect official decisions on the table. Consistently LFC suffer quite badly on those tables. I haven't seen them all but I must have seen at least 5 over the last 10-15 years. I don't remember seeing one without us being worst done by in the league. Once or twice ok but at least a 3rd?

So they're my beliefs. Call me a crackpot if you like I don't care.
I don’t think you’re a crackpot but.....
I think the problem with the Murdoch bias argument is the prevalence of ex LFC players employed by Sky. If they were pursuing an anti LFC agenda at Rupert behest, why employ carragher, Thommo and Souness all three of whom are notoriously partial in favour of LFC. Doesn’t make sense to me.
 



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