Conspiracy? Bias? Dumb luck? Why do LFC get shit decisions?

Status
Not open for further replies.

sms1986

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2018
Messages
2,007
In games against the other top six (City, United, Arsenal, Spurs and Chelsea) the record reads:

Moss: 4 games, 2 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss (when we were the better side until he sent Mane off against City last year)

Taylor: 7 games, 1 win, 2 draws, 4 losses (we've lost both games against Chelsea he's refereed).
That's a fair point, but it doesn't mean that bias was to blame. I'm not trying to say with the statistics that bias doesn't come into it, I'm just saying that it doesn't appear that it has a major effect.

Unless we analyse every decision made in all of those games, we can't know how much was bias and how much was incompetence. Even then, how do we get rid of the bias? VAR will only do so much if used correctly.
 

sms1986

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2018
Messages
2,007
When managers get fined for criticising officials it appears the FA don't take into account whether the criticism is reasonable or in fact a reality of how the officials performed,a big part of the problem is the OTT protection of really piss poor officiating.
They seem to fear undermining the authority of the officials but I think that fear is mostly unfounded.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
14,423
I'm not saying that bias definitely wasn't displayed, my point was that we still win the majority of their matches.
We still win the majority of all matches.

Were we to lose a majority of matches that they referee'd there'd certainly be questions asked.

However, 5 points out of 21 from matches Taylor has referee'd against City, Chelsea, Arsenal, United and Spurs seems under par, wouldn't you say? The only game we've won against the other top six was Spurs at Anfield two years ago when we absolutely battered them (it finished 2-0 but should have been more).

We've never won any of the 3 games we've played against the Manchester clubs that the Manchester resident has ref'd. We've lost both games against Chelsea and the only game he's ref'd that we've played against Arsenal (the only league game we've lost against Arsenal in the last five seasons).

Just saying... ;)
 

sms1986

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2018
Messages
2,007
We still win the majority of all matches.

Were we to lose a majority of matches that they referee'd there'd certainly be questions asked.

However, 5 points out of 21 from matches Taylor has referee'd against City, Chelsea, Arsenal, United and Spurs seems under par, wouldn't you say? The only game we've won against the other top six was Spurs at Anfield two years ago when we absolutely battered them (it finished 2-0 but should have been more).

We've never won any of the 3 games we've played against the Manchester clubs that the Manchester resident has ref'd. We've lost both games against Chelsea and the only game he's ref'd that we've played against Arsenal (the only league game we've lost against Arsenal in the last five seasons).

Just saying... ;-)
I do think that is under par, I just don't think we can prove whether bias or incompetence is more to blame. Taylor is certainly one of the worst referees, though, I do agree with that.
 

Dane

NEXT!
Ad-free Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
6,816
We still win the majority of all matches.

Were we to lose a majority of matches that they referee'd there'd certainly be questions asked.

However, 5 points out of 21 from matches Taylor has referee'd against City, Chelsea, Arsenal, United and Spurs seems under par, wouldn't you say? The only game we've won against the other top six was Spurs at Anfield two years ago when we absolutely battered them (it finished 2-0 but should have been more).

We've never won any of the 3 games we've played against the Manchester clubs that the Manchester resident has ref'd. We've lost both games against Chelsea and the only game he's ref'd that we've played against Arsenal (the only league game we've lost against Arsenal in the last five seasons).

Just saying... ;-)
So bias may be in existence, but never mind because we usually win despite it.
All good then.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
14,423
I do think that is under par, I just don't think we can prove whether bias or incompetence is more to blame. Taylor is certainly one of the worst referees, though, I do agree with that.
Is he though? If he was why does he get a lot of the high-profile games? Perhaps not everybody thinks he's the worst? ;)

So bias may be in existence, but never mind because we usually win despite it.
All good then.
If only :)
 

sms1986

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2018
Messages
2,007
Is he though? If he was why does he get a lot of the high-profile games? Perhaps not everybody thinks he's the worst? ;-)
Fans are generally going to see him differently than the governing bodies do.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
14,423
Anthony Taylor league games re top six (games, win, draw, loss):

Chelsea 6 games 4 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss (2.2pts/game)
Arsenal 7 games 3 wins, 3 draws, 1 loss (1.7pts/game)
City 5 games 2 wins, 2 draws, 1 loss (1.6pts/game)
Spurs 4 games 1 win, 1 draw, 2 losses (1pt/game)
United 5 games 1 win, 1 draw, 3 losses (.8pts/game)
Liverpool 7 games 1 win, 2 draws, 4 losses (.7pts/game)

(Period 11/12 to date)
 

Commando

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
2,767
Anthony Taylor league games re top six (games, win, draw, loss):

Chelsea 6 games 4 wins, 1 draw, 1 loss (2.2pts/game)
Arsenal 7 games 3 wins, 3 draws, 1 loss (1.7pts/game)
City 5 games 2 wins, 2 draws, 1 loss (1.6pts/game)
Spurs 4 games 1 win, 1 draw, 2 losses (1pt/game)
United 5 games 1 win, 1 draw, 3 losses (.8pts/game)
Liverpool 7 games 1 win, 2 draws, 4 losses (.7pts/game)

(Period 11/12 to date)

Taylor is probably the worst out of the whole lot IMO. I've talked elsewhere about how his failure to send off Brede Hangellande in a game against us ended up sending Birminham City down.
 

epsomred

Give yourselves the chance to be heros
Ad-free Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
1,760
I’m not really following this bit. Are we now saying that the statistics imply that certain named referees like Taylor are bias against us and this is because they have been influenced by the media ? This is a genuine question so I can keep up with the rest of the class.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
14,423
I’m not really following this bit. Are we now saying that the statistics imply that certain named referees like Taylor are bias against us and this is because they have been influenced by the media ? This is a genuine question so I can keep up with the rest of the class.
I've got no idea whether what I'm saying has been influenced by the media or by the thought-control device fixed to Murdoch's sky box I had for ten years. Did I swallow the red or the blue pill? Fuck.

I don't know whether I'm rushing to conclusions here but I think that the stats, combined with where a referee's from, crucial dodgy decisions being made against us by people who've never referee'd a professional league game (Derek Eaton, anyone?), the evident agenda amongst the media, pundits and managers to smear our best players, the favouring of rival players over ours purely on grounds of 'sentiment', the fact that we haven't won the league since Sky invented football...it's because of our "curse of the Bambino".

We should never have sold Peter Beardsley.
 

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts.
Admin
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
23,747
(...)

The biggest area where, I believe, officials can lose their objectivity is with diving. Notwithstanding the increase in the amount of foreign managers I do not believe we have a problem where diving is encouraged on a team-by-team basis. So I don't think it's right to say that Spurs, for example, are a team of divers. I do, however, think that players get that reputation and then find it hard to get a penalty even when deserved. Dele Alli, Raheem Sterling, Gareth Bale, Suarez have all been affected by this perception (rightly or wrongly). That players like Salah are also being disadvantaged as being perceived as a 'diver' is where it then negatively impacts upon us. I don't believe Salah is a diver. I don't believe he's ever gone down without contact but there has been an effort in some parts to paint him as such and that has come from media, pundits and managers alike.

That's bound to affect officials, imo.
Regarding referee bias: one obvious bias is the one from PL referees in favour of English players (maybe it extends to British ones too) and against foreign players, especially regarding diving and cheating, and also giving penalties easier when English players are fouled in the box. Paul Tomkins once made a thorough research on that and came out with numbers over a lot of seasons. That's something which never gets talked about in the media and yet, it can be seen week after week in the PL.

Here is the link to the article if anyone is interested: https://tomkinstimes.com/2018/03/bi...ers-a-look-at-how-to-win-a-penalty-in-the-pl/
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
14,423
Regarding referee bias: one obvious bias is the one from PL referees in favour of English players (maybe it extends to British ones too) and against foreign players, especially regarding diving and cheating, and also giving penalties easier when English players are fouled in the box. Paul Tompkins once made a thorough research on that and came out with numbers over a lot of seasons which show that there is something in it. That's something which never gets talked about in the media and yet, it's something which can be seen week after week in the PL.

Here is the link to the article if anyone is interested: paul tiompkins referee bias against foreign players
Your link didn't work at the time of writing this but is it up to date?

The players that immediately spring to mind as being regularly overlooked for penalties are Bale, Young, Alli, Sterling, Suarez, Salah...obviously only two of them are foreign. Kane and Vardy are the only players that immediately spring to mind that, I'd argue, continue to get penalties despite exaggeration (/diving).

Of the six I mentioned I would say that Sterling and Salah don't get the number of penalties they deserve whereas Bale, Young, Alli and Suarez all had a reputation for simulation that was/is deserved to varying degrees.

I'm still amazed by the Niasse retrospective decision.
 

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts.
Admin
Joined
Jul 16, 2007
Messages
23,747
Your link didn't work at the time of writing this but is it up to date?

The players that immediately spring to mind as being regularly overlooked for penalties are Bale, Young, Alli, Sterling, Suarez, Salah...obviously only two of them are foreign. Kane and Vardy are the only players that immediately spring to mind that, I'd argue, continue to get penalties despite exaggeration (/diving).

Of the six I mentioned I would say that Sterling and Salah don't get the number of penalties they deserve whereas Bale, Young, Alli and Suarez all had a reputation for simulation that was/is deserved to varying degrees.

I'm still amazed by the Niasse retrospective decision.
Sorry, I've put the correct link in my post now.
 

Kopstar

★★★★★★
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Messages
14,423
Sorry, I've put the correct link in my post now.
Cheers, it's a long article which I won't finish right now but it occurs to me...maybe players from the British Isles (the 41.5%) are more often fouled in the area than overseas players? I'd be surprised if the article goes into that sort of detail though so it's difficult to judge.

By all means correct me if I'm wrong but at one point he says "Without micro-analysing every incident – both awarded and waved away (good luck to you if you have a spare year) – the data tells us so."

Surely for the stat he puts forward to have any meaning you'd need to do precisely that?
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
572
Not posted for ages but I always read. This debate has compelled me to wade in.
I am from Liverpool and I can 100% guarantee Scousers are biased against. In fact it is racism really. I get all the time no matter where I am in Britain comments made such as "ay up Scouser in the room hold on to your wallets", "careful with your car you'll find it on bricks" hey Scouse I locked my keys in the car you should be able to get in it in a jiffy. It's brushed under the carpet as banter and if as I usually do just ignore it I get, where's your famous scouse humour? Does this bias affect LFC FC? You bet your ass it does.

Funny though because wherever I travel in the world I get nothing but respect about the city and the club.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
23,296
I honestly think if your not from Liverpool you don't realize the amount of bias and predjudice there is against Liverpudlians. I don't mean that as Scousers vs out of towners either.
Is it worse that other regional stereotypes? I’m origi all for Yorkshire and I’ve heard plenty of ‘tightarse’ banter.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
23,296
@jaffod. Knock off the baiting. Long posts like that slagging off another poster are just going to get deleted.
 

Commando

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2016
Messages
2,767
Is it worse that other regional stereotypes? I’m origi all for Yorkshire and I’ve heard plenty of ‘tightarse’ banter.
Hello Divock. lol

I'm not denying that you've heard it. But whenever I've heard similar about Yorkshire folk in my travels, it's usually from Yorkshire folk themselves. I've been on the end of "scouse thieves" banter and it's hurtful. When I've pulled people up on it, their comeback was along the lines of "it's only banter. But it's not.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
23,296
Yeah, I expected that.

The thing is it's been eating away at me for over a week now. There's a stench on these boards I don't much care for. If that gets me a ban that's fine.
You are welcome to leave any time you like.
 

Mascot88

Yours for £1m. Need to make room for Dean Saunders
Admin
Joined
May 24, 2007
Messages
23,296
Hello Divock. lol

I'm not denying that you've heard it. But whenever I've heard similar about Yorkshire folk in my travels, it's usually from Yorkshire folk themselves. I've been on the end of "scouse thieves" banter and it's hurtful. When I've pulled people up on it, their comeback was along the lines of "it's only banter. But it's not.
It says a lot about what I spend my time doing, when ‘originally’ auto-corrects to ‘origi’.

Still, not as bad as sending texts to the missus saying ‘Lovren you, sweetheart’.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
572
Is it worse that other regional stereotypes? I’m origi all for Yorkshire and I’ve heard plenty of ‘tightarse’ banter.
Tightarse or thief? You tell me which is worse.

I honestly don't know any other situation where it is ok to call someone a thief openly and then be the offended one because it didn't make me chuckle at the sheer genius of their humour.
 

FilthyBloke

Undervalued member.
Joined
Feb 26, 2018
Messages
2,441
I have no idea what this thread is evolving into. I don’t want to go back a few pages to find out.
Seems s lot of unhappy folk in here.

What id like to see is every game this season we have been involved in to have each goal and controversial moment (for and against us) to be listed.
If anyone can do that that would be good. I don’t have copies of all games.
 

ILLOK

In the Danger Zone.
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
16,665
Is it worse that other regional stereotypes? I’m origi all for Yorkshire and I’ve heard plenty of ‘tightarse’ banter.
Quite obviously so, I'm surprised you'd even need to ask. I'm sure the usual suspects will brush it off as paranoia but scousers get more 'banter' thrown at them then the average, and usually about being thieves, criminals or poor rather than being 'tight' or other harmless steroetypes. I'm fairly softly spoken (given I'm from the Wirral) and I've heard enough shit Scouse jokes to last me a lifetime.

You only have to take notice of football songs to see that Liverpool gets stuff thrown at it that other cities don't.
 
Last edited:

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
572
Quite obviously so, I'm surprised you'd even need to ask. I'm sure the usual suspects will brush it off as paranoia but scousers get more 'banter' thrown at them then the average, and usually about being thieves, criminals or poor rather than being 'tight' or other harmless steroetypes. I'm fairly softly spoken (given I'm from the Wirral) and I've heard enough shit Scouse jokes to last me a lifetime.

You only have to take notice of football songs to see that Liverpool gets stuff thrown at it that other cities don't.
It's really easy to see why the media could have inherent bias and prejudice without needing a coordinated conspiracy. Because the reporters etc are biased from a lifetime of conditioning.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.