Conspiracy? Bias? Dumb luck? Why do LFC get shit decisions?

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sms1986

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It's really easy to see why the media could have inherent bias and prejudice without needing a coordinated conspiracy. Because the reporters etc are biased from a lifetime of conditioning.
Nobody is saying there isn't bias, just that it's not the only reason why we sometimes get bad decisions.

Scousers do get a lot of stick from the media, both as part of the general working class and as a group, that's certainly true.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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Nobody is saying there isn't bias, just that it's not the only reason why we sometimes get bad decisions.

Scousers do get a lot of stick from the media, both as part of the general working class and as a group, that's certainly true.
I think what you are saying and what the others on your side of the debate are saying are 2 different things. However after reading what you have debated you do seem to move the goalposts. The others have stuck 100% to there is no bias at all against LFC, the city or it's people. Which quite frankly is hard to fathom.
 

sms1986

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I think what you are saying and what the others on your side of the debate are saying are 2 different things. However after reading what you have debated you do seem to move the goalposts. The others have stuck 100% to there is no bias at all against LFC, the city or it's people. Which quite frankly is hard to fathom.
Epsomred says he 100% agrees with me yet I've been saying that there is bias, just that every club has bias for/against it to varying degrees.
 

Spitfire

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https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/45087444

According to their criteria list, the only one that can be put down to luck is the deflected goals stat.
All of the others on that list are down to officiating.

Be interesting to see what this season brings up after we've won it.
Saw a post somewhere pointing out 5/6 incidents this year that would suggest we are closer to the luckiest........re offside goals given etc. The question would be how many points has it gained us of course. Swings and round abouts I guess.

I find the stance on officiating interesting particualry re VAR. In other sports that have used it for years you still see errors made with technology and it interupts the game in a negative way a lot of the time.

As a result of this part of me is glad football has been slower to embrace this, yes it potentially leads to variance but I guess the question is how much and based on a sample size would it end up even. If you ran the analysis over 10 season for example would you see some teams benefitting greatly that leave others at a major disadvantage or not.

The catch to this of course is the only decisions fans remember is the last one that shafted them:)
 

lfc.eddie

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Don't think VAR will stop the biases against Liverpool though, it's all down to the referees and official running the VAR to call for a review. If the referee and the VAR officials don't see a problem or didn't call it, then there's fuck all anyone could do.
 

Quicksand

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It's really easy to see why the media could have inherent bias and prejudice without needing a coordinated conspiracy. Because the reporters etc are biased from a lifetime of conditioning.
Encapsulated argument into one sentence. Throw in the influence of Murdoch, SKY, Ferguson and you start to see how the level of bias effects the club. I am not from Liverpool, but have witnessed this behaviour. Hard to know how to stop it, except from a football perspective just being the best.
 

Dutch

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I honestly think if your not from Liverpool you don't realize the amount of bias and predjudice there is against Liverpudlians. I don't mean that as Scousers vs out of towners either.
I am Dutch and not from Liverpool. I live in The Hague and my local is O'Caseys a nice Irish pub in the historical district. Supporters from all over the world come and see their favourite teams play and there is always batter going around but I can confirm that my fellow Liverpool supporters and me, some who are true scousers, are getting the most, it's not even close. It's not only from mancs but from all over England. I have heard it all from bin dippers to thieves, from everyone is on the dole to murders and so on, It is all supposed to be good fun and we give some too but for some reason, they love to give it to Liverpool supporters (they even call me a scouse bastard :shocked:).

Must be because they fear us so much. lol
 
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Mascot88

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Levels of denial reaching rock bottom now.
Someone once called me a haggis basher, so dont know what you scousers have to complain about :rolleyes:
When you’ve finished with the sarcasm, I’m asking a genuine question to actual scousers. I don’t come from Liverpool, and I’m interested how much this goes on.
 

Mascot88

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Or how about you and the other mods address the problem? One you either can't see or don't understand.
How about you read the forum rules. Despite how you’ve strutted round here since you joined, they do apply to you.
 

Dane

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When you’ve finished with the sarcasm, I’m asking a genuine question to actual scousers. I don’t come from Liverpool, and I’m interested how much this goes on.
Well having been married into a Scouse family (albeit 90% of them are Blueshite) for 30 years, and with a 25 year old son who was born in Liverpool, I do have a bit of insight on the subject.
And haggis bashing is a serious subject too btw
 

Spitfire

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Don't think VAR will stop the biases against Liverpool though, it's all down to the referees and official running the VAR to call for a review. If the referee and the VAR officials don't see a problem or didn't call it, then there's fuck all anyone could do.
Is this to suggest that you believe refs go out to ref our matches and show conscious bias towards the other team in the way they make decisions?
 

sms1986

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Encapsulated argument into one sentence. Throw in the influence of Murdoch, SKY, Ferguson and you start to see how the level of bias effects the club. I am not from Liverpool, but have witnessed this behaviour. Hard to know how to stop it, except from a football perspective just being the best.
Under Klopp we can soon be the best, City have a financial advantage but we're keeping up with them and we'll only get better.
 

lfc.eddie

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Is this to suggest that you believe refs go out to ref our matches and show conscious bias towards the other team in the way they make decisions?
My post states very different from what you read. In VAR thread I’ve been saying the process that make a referee review his own decision or lack of is flawed. So if they are having any form of bias towards us, contentious call against us may not be reviewed.
 

epsomred

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I think what you are saying and what the others on your side of the debate are saying are 2 different things. However after reading what you have debated you do seem to move the goalposts. The others have stuck 100% to there is no bias at all against LFC, the city or it's people. Which quite frankly is hard to fathom.
I have never ever said there is no bias against the city or it’s people. I have lived and worked in the city in the past and been going to away games for 40 years so now full well how much other fans hate us and the city. I can live with the feed the scousers etc but it crosses a line when they start signing about Hillsborough. That said a few quick observations

Every country in the world has regional prejudices against each other that we are not aware of. I lived in Portsmouth for a while and their hatred of neighbouring Southampton is off the scale. Nobody else knows about it or cares. You could go to any city in the world and somewhere else in that country will hate them. It’s everywhere. We are tribal people and instinctively hate other tribes.

It’s a painful truth to acknowledge but some people from the city have made their careers fuelling these lazy prejudices in the name of entertainment. Top of my head Carla lane (scousers are benefit fiddlers), Alan bleasedale (scousers are desperately poor and the Council is corrupt) and ken Dodd (scousers are tax evaders).

Our fans pride themselves on being different (the “we’re not English we’re Scouse” chant really pisses people off) then complain about prejudice.

My only point throughout this long and dreary thread is that I don’t see tangible evidence of this bias in the sports media and I don’t think it effects referees. I am not denying bias against the city and it’s inhabitants, I’ve experienced it for years now but people also hate cockneys, mancs (quite a lot of posters on here say pretty vile things about Manchester fans), the welsh etc etc and their fans are not claiming it effects the refs
 

Quicksand

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My only point throughout this long and dreary thread is that I don’t see tangible evidence of this bias in the sports media and I don’t think it effects referees.
I think we all get that, thus you and another posters constant craving for undeniable proof. Despite the lenghty efforts to point out some evidence, despite the references to such honest and noble characters, Dalglish and Benitez, despite the incredible and meaningful contribution from @Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend, despite what is staring you in the face you still want more.

I get that you are opposing my stance, and respect that, honestly. But why describe the thread as long and dreary? You are not compelled to follow it. Its not as if you are going to have a Eureka moment when you discover the truth.
 

sms1986

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I think we all get that, thus you and another posters constant craving for undeniable proof. Despite the lenghty efforts to point out some evidence, despite the references to such honest and noble characters, Dalglish and Benitez, despite the incredible and meaningful contribution from @Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend, despite what is staring you in the face you still want more.

I get that you are opposing my stance, and respect that, honestly. But why describe the thread as long and dreary? You are not compelled to follow it. Its not as if you are going to have a Eureka moment when you discover the truth.
But that's why everyone in this thread is never going to fully agree, because it's subjective. Yes, we get a lot of bias against us (and you already know my position on other biases) but we can't know how much it effects us in comparison to the referees being as shit as they are. Say we have a stonewall penalty shout denied - some might say it was done due to bias, some might say incompetence. How would we know unless the referee said so? Like you said earlier on in the thread, maybe one day a referee will blow the whistle. If that happens, then it's a good thing.

One thing I think we agree on - both the bias and the incompetence need to be tackled.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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I have never ever said there is no bias against the city or it’s people. I have lived and worked in the city in the past and been going to away games for 40 years so now full well how much other fans hate us and the city. I can live with the feed the scousers etc but it crosses a line when they start signing about Hillsborough. That said a few quick observations

Every country in the world has regional prejudices against each other that we are not aware of. I lived in Portsmouth for a while and their hatred of neighbouring Southampton is off the scale. Nobody else knows about it or cares. You could go to any city in the world and somewhere else in that country will hate them. It’s everywhere. We are tribal people and instinctively hate other tribes.

It’s a painful truth to acknowledge but some people from the city have made their careers fuelling these lazy prejudices in the name of entertainment. Top of my head Carla lane (scousers are benefit fiddlers), Alan bleasedale (scousers are desperately poor and the Council is corrupt) and ken Dodd (scousers are tax evaders).

Our fans pride themselves on being different (the “we’re not English we’re Scouse” chant really pisses people off) then complain about prejudice.

My only point throughout this long and dreary thread is that I don’t see tangible evidence of this bias in the sports media and I don’t think it effects referees. I am not denying bias against the city and it’s inhabitants, I’ve experienced it for years now but people also hate cockneys, mancs (quite a lot of posters on here say pretty vile things about Manchester fans), the welsh etc etc and their fans are not claiming it effects the refs
It's honestly not on the scale of hate that Liverpool as a city recieves. You are talking about rivalry- Southampton vs Portsmouth, I'm talking about a whole country vs Liverpool. I'm not joking. I'm convinced there is no other city in the UK that is prejudiced as much. And that is where the "We're scouse not English" attitude comes from. At one stage in Liverpool during the 80's 1 in 5 people was unemployed. Carla Lane didn't revel in that, boys from the blackstuff wasn't glorifying it was highlighting the problem. You've missed the point mate. Managed decline. Bias? Prejudice? Tip of the iceberg. Does this affect referees, FA, league etc? Of course because as people they have a streotypical view from growing up.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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I sound as if I've a big chip on my shoulder but I'll tell you a story (Ken Dodd).

I lived in London for about 15 years. Went for a job as courier. The firm was like the united nations. The owner was from East Ham. Not racist at all. But he told me he nearly didn't give me the job because I was a Scouser. Wasn't sure I'd be able to control my temper with the clients. Now in 10 years I became his depot manager he was a good guy. Inherent bias, prejudice? You tell me.
 

jaffod

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I have never ever said there is no bias against the city or it’s people. I have lived and worked in the city in the past and been going to away games for 40 years so now full well how much other fans hate us and the city. I can live with the feed the scousers etc but it crosses a line when they start signing about Hillsborough. That said a few quick observations

Every country in the world has regional prejudices against each other that we are not aware of. I lived in Portsmouth for a while and their hatred of neighbouring Southampton is off the scale. Nobody else knows about it or cares. You could go to any city in the world and somewhere else in that country will hate them. It’s everywhere. We are tribal people and instinctively hate other tribes.

It’s a painful truth to acknowledge but some people from the city have made their careers fuelling these lazy prejudices in the name of entertainment. Top of my head Carla lane (scousers are benefit fiddlers), Alan bleasedale (scousers are desperately poor and the Council is corrupt) and ken Dodd (scousers are tax evaders).

Our fans pride themselves on being different (the “we’re not English we’re Scouse” chant really pisses people off) then complain about prejudice.

My only point throughout this long and dreary thread is that I don’t see tangible evidence of this bias in the sports media and I don’t think it effects referees. I am not denying bias against the city and it’s inhabitants, I’ve experienced it for years now but people also hate cockneys, mancs (quite a lot of posters on here say pretty vile things about Manchester fans), the welsh etc etc and their fans are not claiming it effects the refs
I think you'll find the prejudice pre-dates the "we're not English we're scouse" stuff.

As for the '80's sitcom reference I don't know what to say. Do you still associate cockneys with rag and bone men or people from Torquay with dodgy hotels?
 

Commando

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I think you'll find the prejudice pre-dates the "we're not English we're scouse" stuff.

As for the '80's sitcom reference I don't know what to say. Do you still associate cockneys with rag and bone men or people from Torquay with dodgy hotels?

Ay, ay, ay, calm down!!!!! lol


Sorry, I couldn't resist.
 

epsomred

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I think you'll find the prejudice pre-dates the "we're not English we're scouse" stuff.

As for the '80's sitcom reference I don't know what to say. Do you still associate cockneys with rag and bone men or people from Torquay with dodgy hotels?
Bread was the third highest viewed show on the telly in the 1980s, ran for 7 series and at one point had 21m viewers. You may be too young to remember it but in its day, a lot of people who were living and working in the city (including me) hated it for its lazy reinforcement of prejudice. There a good link to an article here about how awful it was

Even the shows own producers admitted afterwards that they were embarrassed by it. So that’s 7 years of a tv show being watched by millions of people that gave birth to the cliches we still live with today but Carla lane is given a free pass because she was a scouser herself. Personally I think she did more to damage the reputation of the city and its inhabitants than any other cultural (not political) figure of the last fifty years. I know from own role at the Council at the time that people watched this shit then decided to invest and build factories elsewhere hence accelerating the economic decline but giving her more material to make money out of. I fucking hate her.
 

epsomred

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It's honestly not on the scale of hate that Liverpool as a city recieves. You are talking about rivalry- Southampton vs Portsmouth, I'm talking about a whole country vs Liverpool. I'm not joking. I'm convinced there is no other city in the UK that is prejudiced as much. And that is where the "We're scouse not English" attitude comes from. At one stage in Liverpool during the 80's 1 in 5 people was unemployed. Carla Lane didn't revel in that, boys from the blackstuff wasn't glorifying it was highlighting the problem. You've missed the point mate. Managed decline. Bias? Prejudice? Tip of the iceberg. Does this affect referees, FA, league etc? Of course because as people they have a streotypical view from growing up.
I said a lot more in my response to jaffod but Carla lane was loudly criticised at the time for her lazy prejudiced portrayal of the city. Even the Times called her out on it. Bread was a massive show watched by millions of people throughout the 80s and gave birth to a lot of the bin dipping thieving scousers cliches that we still live with today. If she came from London she’d be rightly despised in the city but because she’s a local people give her a pass. I don’t.
 

epsomred

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It's honestly not on the scale of hate that Liverpool as a city recieves. You are talking about rivalry- Southampton vs Portsmouth, I'm talking about a whole country vs Liverpool. I'm not joking. I'm convinced there is no other city in the UK that is prejudiced as much. And that is where the "We're scouse not English" attitude comes from. At one stage in Liverpool during the 80's 1 in 5 people was unemployed. Carla Lane didn't revel in that, boys from the blackstuff wasn't glorifying it was highlighting the problem. You've missed the point mate. Managed decline. Bias? Prejudice? Tip of the iceberg. Does this affect referees, FA, league etc? Of course because as people they have a streotypical view from growing up.
Taking your point re Portsmouth versus Southampton, that’s not just rivalry it’s almost war at times. I remember In the summer nights gangs of lads drive to each other cities and roam the streets looking for lads on their own to kick the shit out of. It’s not reported much in the mainstream press but my point is lots of cities all over the world hate each other it’s just we are more acutely aware of what people think about Liverpool. It doesn’t make it right though but have a look at what people on here say about manc fans before you ascend to the moral high ground.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Ok @epsomred now I'm fucking confused. I'm not getting into your reasons for why you believe it exists but you've just basically described the public perception of Scousers that you've been arguing blind doesn't exist so can't be influencing referees and other authority figures. I ... I.... I don't know where to start I really don't. You also don't seem to understand the difference between a rivalry/hatred between two cities and one from a whole fucking country shown to a single city.
 

epsomred

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Ok @epsomred now I'm fucking confused. I'm not getting into your reasons for why you believe it exists but you've just basically described the public perception of Scousers that you've been arguing blind doesn't exist so can't be influencing referees and other authority figures. I ... I.... I don't know where to start I really don't. You also don't seem to understand the difference between a rivalry/hatred between two cities and one from a whole fucking country shown to a single city.
I have never ever said that there is no prejudice against scousers in wider society. I have always said that there is no tangible evidence of bias in the much smaller group of people that constitute the UK sports media and if anything they seem to be bias in our favour. The wider group of prejudiced anti scousers and 400 journalists are two different groups. If you can’t comprehend that simple concept that then I don’t know where to start either.
 
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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I have never ever said that there is no prejudice against scousers in wider society. I have always said that there is no tangible evidence of bias in the much smaller group of people that constitute the UK sports media and if anything they seem to be bias in our favour. The wider group of prejudiced anti scousers and 400 journalists are two different groups. If you can’t comprehend that simple concept that then I don’t know where to start either.
So whether you believe it comes from the media or not you accept there is a negative portrayal/accepted view? So regardless of arguments as to where it comes from you accept there is a stereotype of Scousers and Liverpool that is older than some people's memories will stretch back to? Now do you know how unconscious bias works? People who display it don't even realise (otherwise it's conscious bias). The way the human brain works it makes decisions based on what it observes and fills in the blanks with what it knows. Nobody is arguing for an all powerful conspiracy to stop us winning everything. I don't think anyone is even saying there are those with the power to stop us winning things actively engaged in working against us on an individual basis. But a combination of unconscious bias, even some cases of conscious bias, incompetence and even possible stand alone cases of corruption all exist and can combine to place us on an uneven playing field. It doesn't mean we can't still win. It's just harder than if things were fair.
 

Spitfire

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My post states very different from what you read. In VAR thread I’ve been saying the process that make a referee review his own decision or lack of is flawed. So if they are having any form of bias towards us, contentious call against us may not be reviewed.
So is that a specific bias towards liverpool, or just the teams on the field at the time based on context.......
 

epsomred

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So whether you believe it comes from the media or not you accept there is a negative portrayal/accepted view? So regardless of arguments as to where it comes from you accept there is a stereotype of Scousers and Liverpool that is older than some people's memories will stretch back to? Now do you know how unconscious bias works? People who display it don't even realise (otherwise it's conscious bias). The way the human brain works it makes decisions based on what it observes and fills in the blanks with what it knows. Nobody is arguing for an all powerful conspiracy to stop us winning everything. I don't think anyone is even saying there are those with the power to stop us winning things actively engaged in working against us on an individual basis. But a combination of unconscious bias, even some cases of conscious bias, incompetence and even possible stand alone cases of corruption all exist and can combine to place us on an uneven playing field. It doesn't mean we can't still win. It's just harder than if things were fair.
At the risk of boring everybody let me try to summarise what I have been saying:
There is anti Liverpool prejudice in this country undoubtedly.
I think the uncomfortable truth is that Carla lane, Alan bleasdale and other writers from Liverpool itself contributed to much of it in the 1980s when there were fewer tv channels so their programmes were much more influential.
I don’t think this bias is orchestrated by Murdoch as revenge for the sun boycott.
I don’t think the sports media in 2019 are anti Lfc. If anything they are pro.
I don’t think referees are consistently bias against us because of this wider prejudice. There is no evidence for this.
I don’t think referees are corrupt.
We get some desisions in our favour, we don’t get others.
That’s all folks !
 
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