Conspiracy? Bias? Dumb luck? Why do LFC get shit decisions?

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Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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Taking your point re Portsmouth versus Southampton, that’s not just rivalry it’s almost war at times. I remember In the summer nights gangs of lads drive to each other cities and roam the streets looking for lads on their own to kick the shit out of. It’s not reported much in the mainstream press but my point is lots of cities all over the world hate each other it’s just we are more acutely aware of what people think about Liverpool. It doesn’t make it right though but have a look at what people on here say about manc fans before you ascend to the moral high ground.
Southampton vs Portsmouth wasn't my point it was yours. I was using your point to help you understand the difference between local rivalry/hate (which is wrong but not what were discussing) and prejudice against a city of people from the rest of it's own country.

Moral high ground? My days that's pot/kettle black. "I've followed LFC for 40 years blah blah I know more than you."

Let's see some stereotypes:
Jocks - tight
Yorkshire - forthright, tight
Welsh - do naughty things to sheep (who really believes this?)
Cockneys - Cheeky chappies who eat jellied eels
Geordies - Fatty's who go topless at football matches
Irish - lack intelligence/stupid
Scousers - thieving murdering bin dippers on the dole.

So Bread influenced people? Could it have influenced people who became referees, officials, part of the EFL, FA etc?
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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It's like me saying I know racism exists. But do I really know. Do I know what it's like to be a muslim with a rucksack on my back on the train or bus and know that people are looking at me thinking Is he wearing a bomb? Or to be black and face discrimination and the the condescending attitude of positive discrimination?

Bias, prejudice, discrimination, racism - Does it happen to everyone on an equal scale?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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At the risk of boring everybody let me try to summarise what I have been saying:
There is anti Liverpool prejudice in this country undoubtedly.
I think the uncomfortable truth is that Carla lane, Alan bleasdale and other writers from Liverpool itself contributed to much of it in the 1980s when there were fewer tv channels so their programmes were much more influential.
I don’t think this bias is orchestrated by Murdoch as revenge for the sun boycott.
I don’t think the sports media in 2019 are anti Lfc. If anything they are pro.
I don’t think referees are consistently bias against us because of this wider prejudice. There is no evidence for this.
I don’t think referees are corrupt.
We get some desisions in our favour, we don’t get others.
That’s all folks !
I shouldn't have come out of hiding on this thread. Thought there was a chance to at least find some common ground. But it's 100% crystal clear you have absolutely no concept of even basic psychology.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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I shouldn't have come out of hiding on this thread. Thought there was a chance to at least find some common ground. But it's 100% crystal clear you have absolutely no concept of even basic psychology.
It's not even psychology, it's common sense. You can have an idea but not really understand If you're not from Liverpool. You live in London you will not have listened to anti scouse jokes every single day of your life.
 

epsomred

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It's not even psychology, it's common sense. You can have an idea but not really understand If you're not from Liverpool. You live in London you will not have listened to anti scouse jokes every single day of your life.
I’m genuinely sorry to hear that. Must be boring after a while. I get it in London but not everyday. Anyway I’m not going to post any more in this thread. I have said it before but this time I’m definitely out. I don’t think anybody will ever agree with anybody else and we are just getting nasty with each other. We are fans of the same football club and we are top of the league so let’s enjoy the ride.
 

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Bread was the third highest viewed show on the telly in the 1980s, ran for 7 series and at one point had 21m viewers. You may be too young to remember it but in its day, a lot of people who were living and working in the city (including me) hated it for its lazy reinforcement of prejudice. There a good link to an article here about how awful it was

Even the shows own producers admitted afterwards that they were embarrassed by it. So that’s 7 years of a tv show being watched by millions of people that gave birth to the cliches we still live with today but Carla lane is given a free pass because she was a scouser herself. Personally I think she did more to damage the reputation of the city and its inhabitants than any other cultural (not political) figure of the last fifty years. I know from own role at the Council at the time that people watched this shit then decided to invest and build factories elsewhere hence accelerating the economic decline but giving her more material to make money out of. I fucking hate her.
I'm afraid I am old enough to remember it well. I don't recall much local antipathy towards it at the time, if there had been I don't think it would have lasted as long as it did. I also don't think 21 million people tuned in to be outraged at the ludicrous antics of a bunch of scousers in a 3rd rate sitcom either. I think you are overplaying it's role in how the rest of the country perceived this city and it's people. Much of the stereotyping we still see to this day was already in place, Liverpool was awash with all sorts of social problems but programmes like Bread and Boys From The Black Stuff - while not exactly helping - didn't contribute that much to the jaundiced view people had of the city.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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I’m genuinely sorry to hear that. Must be boring after a while. I get it in London but not everyday. Anyway I’m not going to post any more in this thread. I have said it before but this time I’m definitely out. I don’t think anybody will ever agree with anybody else and we are just getting nasty with each other. We are fans of the same football club and we are top of the league so let’s enjoy the ride.
Not a problem in itself after a while it's water off a duck's back. I'm just explaining from my experience how I think Liverpool the city faces more bias than any other place in the UK except maybe the Irish but that's a people not a city.
 

Quicksand

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At the risk of boring everybody let me try to summarise what I have been saying:
There is anti Liverpool prejudice in this country undoubtedly.
I think the uncomfortable truth is that Carla lane, Alan bleasdale and other writers from Liverpool itself contributed to much of it in the 1980s when there were fewer tv channels so their programmes were much more influential.
I don’t think this bias is orchestrated by Murdoch as revenge for the sun boycott.
I don’t think the sports media in 2019 are anti Lfc. If anything they are pro.
I don’t think referees are consistently bias against us because of this wider prejudice. There is no evidence for this.
I don’t think referees are corrupt.
We get some desisions in our favour, we don’t get others.
That’s all folks !
There is bias against the city and the club. Murdoch media has perpetuated this for years. There is current media bias. There is referee bias. You may not see it but it exists. A number of compelling pieces of evidence of this have been posted here.

It isnt conpiracy, it isnt orchestrated, it isnt a grand scheme but it exists. I think the likes of Kenny Dalglish and Rafa Benitez being cognisant of this adds proof. If we are "conspiracy theorists", are they buying into the theory? Or is there a truth in what they said? Rafas rant? If Ferguson or Wenger had said it SKY would have respected them. Rafa was ridiculed and pilloried. But he was correct.
Ferguson was allowed by SKY to bully and demoralise Kevin Keegan, an honest, if naive man who dared to challenge. He was mocked and humiliated by SKY. Because the regime were Utd driven at the time. Now its City and Guardiola. Decisions have gone City's way quite a lot recentley. For certain.
Wonder why? Because the narrative is the greatest team ever will win the quadruple......SKY want it and that need to over analyse Liverpool decisions and put referees under pressure is perpetuated.
Decisions we get dont effect outcomes. Decisions City get effect outcomes.
Read the evidence compiled by posters.
 

sms1986

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It isnt conpiracy, it isnt orchestrated, it isnt a grand scheme but it exists. I think the likes of Kenny Dalglish and Rafa Benitez being cognisant of this adds proof. If we are "conspiracy theorists", are they buying into the theory? Or is there a truth in what they said? Rafas rant? If Ferguson or Wenger had said it SKY would have respected them. Rafa was ridiculed and pilloried. But he was correct.
Why Wenger? What makes him special to Sky in your opinion?

Decisions have gone City's way quite a lot recently. For certain.
How many were purely bias and how many were simple incompetence, though?

Wonder why? Because the narrative is the greatest team ever will win the quadruple......SKY want it and that need to over analyse Liverpool decisions and put referees under pressure is perpetuated.
How would Sky putting pressure on referees in the Premier League help City in the Champions League?

Do they over analyse every Liverpool decision or was it just that one you mentioned earlier in the thread? How do you know they overanalyse our decisions more than those for other clubs?

Decisions we get dont effect outcomes. Decisions City get effect outcomes.
We've had a few decisions where the outcome was affected or even determined by it, though - for example, the penalty against Fulham last month.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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Ok. Here's my last attempt. Liverpool the city and it's people are open game to the rest of the UK's inhabitants. Comments are made by people which if they were against gays, women, migrants or whatever other minority group would not be tolerated in this politically correct climate but it's deemed as harmless banter against Scousers.

I think this affects LFC as a club whether on or off the pitch. Epsomred mentioned 3 football writers of the year has gone to Liverpool players as proof of positive bias. How many knights of the realm does Manure have?
 

Prolix

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[...]
I think this affects LFC as a club whether on or off the pitch.
Genuine question: how?

One aspect posited has been about the media creating "diving" narratives around certain players but not others, which directly impacts goals for and against, match outcomes, etc. Are there other things you're suggesting that happen on the pitch?

imo there's been a lot of waffling on this point, along the lines of "I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that bias exists against Liverpool, and I THINK this has an impact on the pitch, but, erm, well, I don't know how exactly...", "how dare you suggest that this bias isn't real!!!" etc. etc.

Because if the implication is that English referees look at, e.g., a 50-50 challenge and go "I'm giving this call against the Egyptian/Senegalese/Brazilian/Dutch/non-Scouse English bloke because he plays for LFC and I watched a sitcom about the city of Liverpool in the 1980s" I think we're on shaky ground.

My impression is that a lot of people are approaching this conversation from the entrenched position that anti-Scouser bias must work in some way in football matches as well as their personal lives and then viewing every contentious refereeing decision that occurs through that lens. Unless you have a crystal ball into the referee's head, there needs to be a very clear explanation about why certain patterns actually exist (or not). Which, yeah, is fucking hard. But resorting to "it's just common sense" isn't enough, imo.

Things like hiring decisions have a very clear and direct relationship with that type of negative stereotyping. I'm not so sure that the same can be said for on-the-pitch refereeing decisions (but I am happy to be proved wrong).

Edit: Apologies for the 6549834 edits I made to this after posting.
 
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Quicksand

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@sms1986
I used Wenger as an example.
Do you think City getting a lot of decisions is through incompetence? Kompany not getting a red was biased. Ref afraid of criticism.
You are being pedantic re the Champions league.
It was a cast iron penalty vs Fulham.

Thats it....
I am not going answering any more of your questions. The answers are in the thread, just scroll back. You appear to have changed your stance, a good distance from derailing other threads with the jibes about conspiracies. Maybe this thread has achieved something.
 

sms1986

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@sms1986
I used Wenger as an example.
Do you think City getting a lot of decisions is through incompetence? Kompany not getting a red was biased. Ref afraid of criticism.
You are being pedantic re the Champions league.
It was a cast iron penalty vs Fulham.
I know you said you won't answer any more of my questions, but I would like to respond. Maybe someone who agrees with you can answer them.

Wenger as an example doesn't really answer my question. Could it have been any other manager or did it have to be a top six manager?

It could be bias, it could be incompetence, those with strong feelings either way will see things differently.

Maybe I am being pedantic, but what about the over analysing?

I didn't say it wasn't, I said that it was a decision for us that not only affected the outcome, it determined the outcome.
 

Prolix

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Addendum: Given that we live in a world where Calciopoli happened, it occurs to me that 1.) overt corruption/conspiracy might be more plausible than we think, and 2.) perhaps I am underplaying the notion that certain referees might be softer on certain teams.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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Genuine question: how?

One aspect posited has been about the media creating "diving" narratives around certain players but not others, which directly impacts goals for and against, match outcomes, etc. Are there other things you're suggesting that happen on the pitch?

imo there's been a lot of waffling on this point, along the lines of "I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that bias exists against Liverpool, and I THINK this has an impact on the pitch, but, erm, well, I don't know how exactly...", "how dare you suggest that this bias isn't real!!!" etc. etc.

Because if the implication is that English referees look at, e.g., a 50-50 challenge and go "I'm giving this call against the Egyptian/Senegalese/Brazilian/Dutch/non-Scouse English bloke because he plays for LFC and I watched a sitcom about the city of Liverpool in the 1980s" I think we're on shaky ground.

My impression is that a lot of people are approaching this conversation from the entrenched position that anti-Scouser bias must work in some way in football matches as well as their personal lives and then viewing every contentious refereeing decision that occurs through that lens. Unless you have a crystal ball into the referee's head, there needs to be a very clear explanation about why certain patterns actually exist (or not). Which, yeah, is fucking hard. But resorting to "it's just common sense" isn't enough, imo.

Things like hiring decisions have a very clear and direct relationship with that type of negative stereotyping. I'm not so sure that the same can be said for on-the-pitch refereeing decisions (but I am happy to be proved wrong).

Edit: Apologies for the 6549834 edits I made to this after posting.
Out of the points in my post this is what stood out to you?

Non of us on the bias side of the argument brought up sitcoms as evidence to support our reasoning.

It's all IMO only based on my experiences as a Scouser but on the pitch I think a lifetime of being conditioned about Scousers as a person will affect a referee's decisions to a greater or lesser extent.

Off the pitch I've seen the double standards in reporting, in how disciplinary matters are handled, how Taggart was allowed to make outrageous comments, influence the referees before games etc etc.
 

Prolix

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It's all IMO only based on my experiences as a Scouser but on the pitch I think a lifetime of being conditioned about Scousers as a person will affect a referee's decisions to a greater or lesser extent.
You didn't answer my question. Specifically how does it affect their decisions?

Notice: I'm not saying "it does not affect their decisions". I'm saying I want to know which types of decisions you're saying it influences (and how). Penalties, free kicks, fouls, cards (red vs. yellow etc.), what? I just want to understand what we're describing taking place in concrete terms.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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You didn't answer my question. Specifically how does it affect their decisions?

Notice: I'm not saying "it does not affect their decisions". I'm saying I want to know which types of decisions you're saying it influences (and how). Penalties, free kicks, fouls, cards (red vs. yellow etc.), what? I just want to understand what we're describing taking place in concrete terms.
For example - LFC will only be awarded a peno if it's stonewall and even then it's not guaranteed. The amount of hand balls that were waived on last season against was shocking. This is a product IMO of bias and incompetence.
 

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Wow. :shocked:

"There is anti Liverpool prejudice in this country undoubtedly."
It was highlighted by TV sitcom writers, influencing many of the 21 million viewers.

It's not possible that any of those 21 million viewers turned out to be professional football referees.

Unbelievable.
 

Quicksand

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Not sure how reliable this link is, but if there is a shred of truth to it, it dispels any notion that it's not possible for refs to be biased

https://www.soccerladuma.co.za/news...tional/ex-ref-admits-to-texting-fergie/137681
If there is a grain of truth in this, it is compelling?

Also, with all the questions being posed by:
@sms1986 @epsomred @Prolix

Honest answers here please
"When Rafa Benitez made his now infamous statement, referred to as his rant, was he engaging in conspiracy theories?......or was he informing us on what he was witnessing in football from an honest perspective?"
 

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Addendum: Given that we live in a world where Calciopoli happened, it occurs to me that 1.) overt corruption/conspiracy might be more plausible than we think, and 2.) perhaps I am underplaying the notion that certain referees might be softer on certain teams.
You can add to this that the PL is the league in which the most money ever is circulating. That is bound to attract the cheaters / to transform decent people into cheaters.

However, that has nothing to do with LFC per se. The risk of cheating is very high in this league imo, and I'm just praying that we as a club have nothing to do with potential cheaters and play the game honestly, that's all.
 

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You can add to this that the PL is the league in which the most money ever is circulating. That is bound to attract the cheaters / to transform decent people into cheaters.

However, that has nothing to do with LFC per se. The risk of cheating is very high in this league imo, and I'm just praying that we as a club have nothing to do with potential cheaters and play the game honestly, that's all.
I think we do.
Hence the need to simply "be better".
Most seasons we would be winning the league well at the moment. The decisions receiced by City have made it difficult.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I know I'm trying to stay out of this thread but just a quick note on timelines.

The Toxteth Riots 1981.


The TV series Bread didn't come out till 1986.
 

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I know I'm trying to stay out of this thread but just a quick note on timelines.

The Toxteth Riots 1981.


The TV series Bread didn't come out till 1986.
She may have been urged to but crucially she didn't choose to do so for which she gets little credit....................instead she appointed Michael Heseltine and the regeneration programme was launched. The city owes a great debt to that man and I for one will always be grateful to him.

He's a bit of a hero for me. This sums it all up.

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk...e-in-liverpools-hour-of-need/10018378.article

This is down to his vision https://www.liverpoollep.org/news/tourism-figures-continue-grow/

Latest figures show Liverpool City Region’s Visitor Economy is now worth £4.3bn, last year welcomed over 62m visitors to the region and supports over 51,500 jobs.
 
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sms1986

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If there is a grain of truth in this, it is compelling?

Also, with all the questions being posed by:
@sms1986 @epsomred @Prolix

Honest answers here please
"When Rafa Benitez made his now infamous statement, referred to as his rant, was he engaging in conspiracy theories?......or was he informing us on what he was witnessing in football from an honest perspective?"
He said what he believed he was witnessing in football and there's some truth to what he said seeing as United have declined since Ferguson left, but if he is correct, then it's not just Liverpool who were affected but every team in the Premier League. As I've said, bias affects all teams both positively and negatively to varying degrees,
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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He said what he believed he was witnessing in football and there's some truth to what he said seeing as United have declined since Ferguson left, but if he is correct, then it's not just Liverpool who were affected but every team in the Premier League. As I've said, bias affects all teams both positively and negatively to varying degrees,
A team can benefit from positive bias and still decline. A team can be up against negative bias and still prosper. You and the other guy keep falling back on all or nothing stances.
 

sms1986

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A team can benefit from positive bias and still decline. A team can be up against negative bias and still prosper. You and the other guy keep falling back on all or nothing stances.
Whilst I agree, if Rafa is correct then Ferguson's absence would have some effect.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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She may have been urged to but crucially she didn't choose to do so for which she gets little credit....................instead she appointed Michael Heseltine and the regeneration programme was launched. The city owes a great debt to that man and I for one will always be grateful to him.

He's a bit of a hero for me. This sums it all up.

https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk...e-in-liverpools-hour-of-need/10018378.article

This is down to his vision https://www.liverpoollep.org/news/tourism-figures-continue-grow/

Latest figures show Liverpool City Region’s Visitor Economy is now worth £4.3bn, last year welcomed over 62m visitors to the region and supports over 51,500 jobs.
That posting and programme had already been started when the recommendation was made. I think he was up against it and succeeded despite them (maybe means he should receive more credit in your eyes).

 
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