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Conspiracy? Bias? Dumb luck? Why do LFC get shit decisions?

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jaffod

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I think it's interesting indeed. However, I'd want to see how it pans out over a larger time-frame. Can you provide us these stats over the last ten years for instance? If it turns out that there are similar stats than over the time-frame you mentioned, then you're definitely up to something.
It would be interesting to me because I feel it's something that has become pretty stark over the last few seasons, so if the figures over 10 years evened themselves out it would be evidence to me that there has been a shift at some point and would back up what many of us have been saying.
I wanted to compare the big 6 over the last 3 years or so and have already looked at Chelsea, Spurs and City and their results show they have had more pens and gained more points as well.
I'll have a good look later and compare it over the 10 years and see how it pans out.
 


Rambler

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Those penalty statistics do make interesting reading.

Over Premier League history (up to start of this season) Liverpool have been awarded 92 penalties and Manchester United 83.

Chelsea - 88
Spurs - 72
Arsenal - 83
Manchester City - 93 (only they have have been awarded more than us)
 

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Those penalty statistics do make interesting reading.

Over Premier League history (up to start of this season) Liverpool have been awarded 92 penalties and Manchester United 83.

Chelsea - 88
Spurs - 72
Arsenal - 83
Manchester City - 93 (only they have have been awarded more than us)
That's quite surprising, particularly City as they've done that in five fewer seasons.
 



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Ah ok, that's from when City came back up into the PL.
This is the top 5 since it began http://sokkaa.com/referee-darlings-top-5-clubs-awarded-most-penalties-in-premier-league-history/2/

Considering we have never won the Premier League and Manchester United have had such dominance I find it remarkable that we have been awarded so many more penalties.

Liverpool has been the biggest beneficiary of match official’s penalty decisions in Premier League history. The Reds have been awarded 144 spot-kicks so far. A total of 113 were successfully converted, 11 missed and 20 saved by rival goalkeepers.

Manchester United are always on the receiving end, especially during Sir Alex Ferguson tenure. Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool fans, players and managers always believed the Red Devils received favourable treatment from match officials. However, according to the following numbers the Old Trafford side has only benefited from 124 penalties awarded. A total of 100 were converted, 16 missed and 8 were saved.
 
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Kopstar

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This is the top 5 since it began http://sokkaa.com/referee-darlings-top-5-clubs-awarded-most-penalties-in-premier-league-history/2/

Considering we have never won the Premier League and Manchester United have had such dominance I find it remarkable that we have been awarded so many more penalties.

Liverpool has been the biggest beneficiary of match official’s penalty decisions in Premier League history. The Reds have been awarded 144 spot-kicks so far. A total of 113 were successfully converted, 11 missed and 20 saved by rival goalkeepers.

Manchester United are always on the receiving end, especially during Sir Alex Ferguson tenure. Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool fans, players and managers always believed the Red Devils received favourable treatment from match officials. However, according to the following numbers the Old Trafford side has only benefited from 124 penalties awarded. A total of 100 were converted, 16 missed and 8 were saved.
So really, the other factor that's at play here is that combined with only getting penalties against shit teams and at times when we're already winning handsomely we've also been shit at converting those penalties that we have been awarded. Our relatively shit conversion rate is quite odd given our brilliant record in penalty shoot-outs. Something going on there, eh? [eyes]

That number even includes the penalty the ref gave when Fowler was trying to persuade him it wasn't a penalty. I love the fact that Fowler won a fair play award for that. He even went on to miss the pen (it was saved by Seaman who I'm convinced was told by Fowler which way he was going to go) only for McAteer (I think) not to have read the script and bury the rebound. Haha. Masterful from double-trigger.

Just on a side note, apart from Fowler and Seaman my cousin had the best view in the whole stadium of that penalty.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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This is the top 5 since it began http://sokkaa.com/referee-darlings-top-5-clubs-awarded-most-penalties-in-premier-league-history/2/

Considering we have never won the Premier League and Manchester United have had such dominance I find it remarkable that we have been awarded so many more penalties.

Liverpool has been the biggest beneficiary of match official’s penalty decisions in Premier League history. The Reds have been awarded 144 spot-kicks so far. A total of 113 were successfully converted, 11 missed and 20 saved by rival goalkeepers.

Manchester United are always on the receiving end, especially during Sir Alex Ferguson tenure. Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool fans, players and managers always believed the Red Devils received favourable treatment from match officials. However, according to the following numbers the Old Trafford side has only benefited from 124 penalties awarded. A total of 100 were converted, 16 missed and 8 were saved.
It's important to review a couple of important elements that aren't listed there.

1st How many of those penalties awarded were stone wall penalties with very little choice but to award them?

2nd How many of those penalties were incorrectly given through referee error?

3rd How many penalties that should have been given but weren't could be added to those?

4th What was the in game context when the penalty was given? Easiest way is to look at how the penalties change the points awarded for the match, ie a penalty given and scored could equal 2 points in a 1 nil victory. But a game standing at 0-0 could be changed to 3-0 after a keeper is incorrectly sent off and a penalty awarded after a blatant dive.

It's a much more complicated view that is needed.
 

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So really, the other factor that's at play here is that combined with only getting penalties against shit teams and at times when we're already winning handsomely we've also been shit at converting those penalties that we have been awarded. Our relatively shit conversion rate is quite odd given our brilliant record in penalty shoot-outs. Something going on there, eh? [eyes]

That number even includes the penalty the ref gave when Fowler was trying to persuade him it wasn't a penalty. I love the fact that Fowler won a fair play award for that. He even went on to miss the pen (it was saved by Seaman who I'm convinced was told by Fowler which way he was going to go) only for McAteer (I think) not to have read the script and bury the rebound. Haha. Masterful from double-trigger.

Just on a side note, apart from Fowler and Seaman my cousin had the best view in the whole stadium of that penalty.
Your cousin was the ref? No wonder he gave the pen.
 



jaffod

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OK, went through the last 10 years for the 'big 6' but just stuck to home games, mainly because many of the naysayers reckon referees like to show how big their balls are by not being influenced by the crowd and also because I feel that's where we are being unfairly treated.

Figures are for penalties awarded and how many points the team gained if the penalty affected the final score.

Manchester City 52 and 24.
Chelsea 40 and 23.
Manchester United 33 and 16.
Arsenal 25 and 11.
Liverpool 25 and 10.
Spurs 22 and 20.

So only Spurs have been awarded less pens than Liverpool but they have more than made up for it by the number of points they have gained as a result of those pens being given. Some people might argue the figures reflect the amount of success enjoyed by each club and it might be true to an extent but I don't think it explains it completely. I believe our low points gain is down to the fact referees - especially over the past few seasons - have been reluctant to give us game-changing penalties at Anfield. We've tended to get them in 'easy' victories like the 3 we got over Christmas in the 4-0 v Newcastle and 5-1 v Arsenal.

I've already said it's been more noticeable over the last few seasons so here's the figures for the last 3 seasons.

Manchester United 14 and 12.
Manchester City 12 and 6.
Arsenal 11 and 6.
Spurs 8 and 8.
Liverpool 8 and 0.
Chelsea 7 and 4.

So again we can feel hard done to. Only Chelsea have been given less and we are the only club who haven't benefitted by a single point in the last 3 seasons.

People might say it's only a few points here and there but that's more than enough to make the difference over the course of the season. We lose the title by a point this year then Martin fucking Atkinson's refusal to give the Keita penalty against Leicester allied to the soft one City got to beat West Ham starts to look very costly indeed. It only takes a couple of games over the season to put it out of our reach, it happened imo in 2013/14 and could well happen this season.
 

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OK, went through the last 10 years for the 'big 6' but just stuck to home games, mainly because many of the naysayers reckon referees like to show how big their balls are by not being influenced by the crowd and also because I feel that's where we are being unfairly treated.

Figures are for penalties awarded and how many points the team gained if the penalty affected the final score.

Manchester City 52 and 24.
Chelsea 40 and 23.
Manchester United 33 and 16.
Arsenal 25 and 11.
Liverpool 25 and 10.
Spurs 22 and 20.

So only Spurs have been awarded less pens than Liverpool but they have more than made up for it by the number of points they have gained as a result of those pens being given. Some people might argue the figures reflect the amount of success enjoyed by each club and it might be true to an extent but I don't think it explains it completely. I believe our low points gain is down to the fact referees - especially over the past few seasons - have been reluctant to give us game-changing penalties at Anfield. We've tended to get them in 'easy' victories like the 3 we got over Christmas in the 4-0 v Newcastle and 5-1 v Arsenal.

I've already said it's been more noticeable over the last few seasons so here's the figures for the last 3 seasons.

Manchester United 14 and 12.
Manchester City 12 and 6.
Arsenal 11 and 6.
Spurs 8 and 8.
Liverpool 8 and 0.
Chelsea 7 and 4.

So again we can feel hard done to. Only Chelsea have been given less and we are the only club who haven't benefitted by a single point in the last 3 seasons.

People might say it's only a few points here and there but that's more than enough to make the difference over the course of the season. We lose the title by a point this year then Martin fucking Atkinson's refusal to give the Keita penalty against Leicester allied to the soft one City got to beat West Ham starts to look very costly indeed. It only takes a couple of games over the season to put it out of our reach, it happened imo in 2013/14 and could well happen this season.
What would the points gained tally look like if all the penalties given to each of the top six at home been scored?
 

Spitfire

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OK, went through the last 10 years for the 'big 6' but just stuck to home games, mainly because many of the naysayers reckon referees like to show how big their balls are by not being influenced by the crowd and also because I feel that's where we are being unfairly treated.

Figures are for penalties awarded and how many points the team gained if the penalty affected the final score.

Manchester City 52 and 24.
Chelsea 40 and 23.
Manchester United 33 and 16.
Arsenal 25 and 11.
Liverpool 25 and 10.
Spurs 22 and 20.

So only Spurs have been awarded less pens than Liverpool but they have more than made up for it by the number of points they have gained as a result of those pens being given. Some people might argue the figures reflect the amount of success enjoyed by each club and it might be true to an extent but I don't think it explains it completely. I believe our low points gain is down to the fact referees - especially over the past few seasons - have been reluctant to give us game-changing penalties at Anfield. We've tended to get them in 'easy' victories like the 3 we got over Christmas in the 4-0 v Newcastle and 5-1 v Arsenal.

I've already said it's been more noticeable over the last few seasons so here's the figures for the last 3 seasons.

Manchester United 14 and 12.
Manchester City 12 and 6.
Arsenal 11 and 6.
Spurs 8 and 8.
Liverpool 8 and 0.
Chelsea 7 and 4.

So again we can feel hard done to. Only Chelsea have been given less and we are the only club who haven't benefitted by a single point in the last 3 seasons.

People might say it's only a few points here and there but that's more than enough to make the difference over the course of the season. We lose the title by a point this year then Martin fucking Atkinson's refusal to give the Keita penalty against Leicester allied to the soft one City got to beat West Ham starts to look very costly indeed. It only takes a couple of games over the season to put it out of our reach, it happened imo in 2013/14 and could well happen this season.
While you touch on it (success of these clubs), and if you look at the last three seasons you could raise your eyebrows.....this sort of data is almost meaningless.

There are so many other pieces of data that would need to be considered.......
  1. Number of times in the box
  2. Tackles/Contact occurances in the box
  3. Referees awarding the penalties - and any data relating to the likelihood of getting decisions dependent on the referee
  4. Time based considerations of these awards and any consistency relating to this - e.g time similar fouls decisions given in minute 10, but not minute 89........and why this may occur
You could go on...........maybe go and watch 'behind the curve' - thats a good way of not looking at data - or excluding all data that may not prove a hypothesis.........
 



Anfield rd Dreamer

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While you touch on it (success of these clubs), and if you look at the last three seasons you could raise your eyebrows.....this sort of data is almost meaningless.

There are so many other pieces of data that would need to be considered.......
  1. Number of times in the box
  2. Tackles/Contact occurances in the box
  3. Referees awarding the penalties - and any data relating to the likelihood of getting decisions dependent on the referee
  4. Time based considerations of these awards and any consistency relating to this - e.g time similar fouls decisions given in minute 10, but not minute 89........and why this may occur
You could go on...........maybe go and watch 'behind the curve' - thats a good way of not looking at data - or excluding all data that may not prove a hypothesis.........
For me the biggest missing data is bad calls. How many penalties SHOULD have been given to add to those numbers and how many penalties SHOULDN'T have been given and would need to be reflected. Other than rewatching every single match for all 6 top teams though I don't think it's realistic to gather that info. I don't care so much about how many correct penalty decisions are awarded. I care about how many should have been but aren't. That would be one way to show if there is bias.
 

Quicksand

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While you touch on it (success of these clubs), and if you look at the last three seasons you could raise your eyebrows.....this sort of data is almost meaningless.

There are so many other pieces of data that would need to be considered.......
  1. Number of times in the box
  2. Tackles/Contact occurances in the box
  3. Referees awarding the penalties - and any data relating to the likelihood of getting decisions dependent on the referee
  4. Time based considerations of these awards and any consistency relating to this - e.g time similar fouls decisions given in minute 10, but not minute 89........and why this may occur
You could go on...........maybe go and watch 'behind the curve' - thats a good way of not looking at data - or excluding all data that may not prove a hypothesis.........
Or
You could just watch matches and take note, see how many dubious calls City received this season, and then look at factors that have mitigated against Liverpool.
Manes goal vs Arsenal
Keita pen vs Leicster
Keita pen vs Southampton
Salah pen vs Chelsea
Burnley foul on Allison that led to goal.....
Just off the top of my head, behind the curve and not analysing hard data.
@jaffod has provided statistics for those who try to dispell the notion that Liverpool are treated in a more harsh manner than other clubs. His work is proving that bias exists. And all he is getting, a guy working on his own, all he is getting is "do more".
The people looking for proof are getting it, but now more is required from other posters.

Fair play @jaffod but there really is no pleasing some people. I think the stats provided add to our side if the argument, so well done on that.
 

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OK, went through the last 10 years for the 'big 6' but just stuck to home games, mainly because many of the naysayers reckon referees like to show how big their balls are by not being influenced by the crowd and also because I feel that's where we are being unfairly treated.

Figures are for penalties awarded and how many points the team gained if the penalty affected the final score.

Manchester City 52 and 24.
Chelsea 40 and 23.
Manchester United 33 and 16.
Arsenal 25 and 11.
Liverpool 25 and 10.
Spurs 22 and 20.

So only Spurs have been awarded less pens than Liverpool but they have more than made up for it by the number of points they have gained as a result of those pens being given. Some people might argue the figures reflect the amount of success enjoyed by each club and it might be true to an extent but I don't think it explains it completely. I believe our low points gain is down to the fact referees - especially over the past few seasons - have been reluctant to give us game-changing penalties at Anfield. We've tended to get them in 'easy' victories like the 3 we got over Christmas in the 4-0 v Newcastle and 5-1 v Arsenal.

I've already said it's been more noticeable over the last few seasons so here's the figures for the last 3 seasons.

Manchester United 14 and 12.
Manchester City 12 and 6.
Arsenal 11 and 6.
Spurs 8 and 8.
Liverpool 8 and 0.
Chelsea 7 and 4.

So again we can feel hard done to. Only Chelsea have been given less and we are the only club who haven't benefitted by a single point in the last 3 seasons.

People might say it's only a few points here and there but that's more than enough to make the difference over the course of the season. We lose the title by a point this year then Martin fucking Atkinson's refusal to give the Keita penalty against Leicester allied to the soft one City got to beat West Ham starts to look very costly indeed. It only takes a couple of games over the season to put it out of our reach, it happened imo in 2013/14 and could well happen this season.
Without going in the details, but Man City got 52 penalties at their home over the last ten years, and us, 25? A stunning difference. :shocked:

Cheers for looking this up.

(any chance you have a similar stat for away games? :J)
 

Rambler

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Without going in the details, but Man City got 52 penalties at their home over the last ten years, and us, 25? A stunning difference. :shocked:

Cheers for looking this up.

(any chance you have a similar stat for away games? :J)
Since 2002/03 when City came back into the Premier League they have been awarded 26 penalties away from home.

We have been awarded 45.......... (does not include this season).

from http://www.myfootballfacts.com/Premier_League_Penalty_Statistics.html
 

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Since 2002/03 when City came back into the Premier League they have been awarded 26 penalties away from home.

We have been awarded 45.......... (does not include this season).

from http://www.myfootballfacts.com/Premier_League_Penalty_Statistics.html
That stat is as strange as the other one. Why do we get so much more penalties than them away from home, and so much less at Anfield? Over roughly a fifteen-years period, this can't be just a random anomaly. I can't work that out to be fair... :eh?:
 

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I am struggling to get my head round what constitutes a "game changing penalty".

United get a penalty in the first 15 minutes and dominate the rest of the game but don't score another. Is that a game changing penalty?

Liverpool are 2-1 up but struggling to hold on to that lead but get a penalty in the 80th minute. Is that a "game changing penalty" despite the record saying a 3-1 victory?

I would say the second example is possibly more so. In fact every single thing that happens on a football pitch from the very first second is game changing.
 
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Dane

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"Game changing" is all too generic to be honest.
There are too many variables throughout a 90 minute match.

Some decisions could be classed as more obvious than others, for example.....
With the game at us 1-0 up, Harry Maguire not sent off when he should have been, and a few minutes later scores against us. We would probably have gone on to beat 10 men.
With the game at 0-0, Vincent Kompany not sent off when he should have been. We would possibly have gone on to beat 10 men.
 



Quicksand

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"Game changing" is all too generic to be honest.
There are too many variables throughout a 90 minute match.

Some decisions could be classed as more obvious than others, for example.....
With the game at us 1-0 up, Harry Maguire not sent off when he should have been, and a few minutes later scores against us. We would probably have gone on to beat 10 men.
With the game at 0-0, Vincent Kompany not sent off when he should have been. We would possibly have gone on to beat 10 men.
Two examples that constitute lost points this season, with City directly benefitting from the lack of red for Kompany.
Also, add poor decisions I listed earlier that MAY have cost us points and it all indicates that the pitch isnt level.
 

jaffod

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Or
You could just watch matches and take note, see how many dubious calls City received this season, and then look at factors that have mitigated against Liverpool.
Manes goal vs Arsenal
Keita pen vs Leicster
Keita pen vs Southampton
Salah pen vs Chelsea
Burnley foul on Allison that led to goal.....
Just off the top of my head, behind the curve and not analysing hard data.
@jaffod has provided statistics for those who try to dispell the notion that Liverpool are treated in a more harsh manner than other clubs. His work is proving that bias exists. And all he is getting, a guy working on his own, all he is getting is "do more".
The people looking for proof are getting it, but now more is required from other posters.

Fair play @jaffod but there really is no pleasing some people. I think the stats provided add to our side if the argument, so well done on that.
You're right mate, short of obtaining a signed confession from some referees that they don't ref our games fairly at Anfield I'm not sure what can be done to persuade people that something isn't quite right.
 

jaffod

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jaffod

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That stat is as strange as the other one. Why do we get so much more penalties than them away from home, and so much less at Anfield? Over roughly a fifteen-years period, this can't be just a random anomaly. I can't work that out to be fair... :eh?:
My stats don't go back as far. It would have been too time consuming and also I feel it is a more recent problem, it's been much more noticeable over the last few seasons imo.
 



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