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Conspiracy? Bias? Dumb luck? Why do LFC get shit decisions?

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Anfield rd Dreamer

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Bingo. The problem with this discussion in a nutshell. Much of the evidence relied upon in this thread would be laughed out of any serious intellectual debate re bias/prejudices.
You can't have evidence of unconscious bias. By it's nature even the people effected by it aren't aware of it. You can only discuss how it could have been created and how it can show itself. The only way you can ever prove conscious bias is through an admission by those effected by it. Yet again you can discuss how it was created and how it shows it's effects but how can you prove it? That doesn't mean these things do not exist or aren't having an effect it just means it's unreasonable to demand conclusive proof. There can't be.
 

Quicksand

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In the last couple of pages one poster has accused those of us who are positing the view that bias exists of not being "grown ups" whilst another comments on reqirement of intellectual debate.
Gross insults. Insults to fellow supporters who observe and comment on the injustices Liverpool as a city and club have endured.
The evidence may not strike you as a "conversation stopper" but at the very least it should open your eyes to the possibility that an agenda exists, a subconcious agenda perhaps, but it exists. The Two Tribes documentary shows the Thatcher agenda at work, and comments on how the city was demonised and viewed.
In fairness, rational and intellectual debate has been to the forefront in the commentary from the group claiming bias exists. Evidence has been quotrd, including personal experiences and the treatment of people like Bob Paisley, and the demonisation of Rafa etc.
Then to be branded as not being grown up is a tad rich.
 

CymruRed

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Ok so what is the opinion that everyone has come to 100%?

I can't tell you what everyones opinion is on Henderson,as i haven't been in his player thread or read 99.9% of this one,thats if he's been mentioned in here,i only poked my head in the first couple of pages and decided this isn't the kinda never ending conspiracy topic i want to be involved in.

If you're asking me my opinion,then i feel the guy is unfairly critisised at times,he's not Steven Gerrard but he had to try filling his boots at a time when we were rebuilding,losing our best players in SG,Suarez,then Sterling,he was then asked to change his box to box game and play as a holding/defensive Midfielder,when we only really had Emre Can (who we had to wait a couple of years to come through,but then he left).He also had a couple of seasons with ankle injuries,which limited his game (but still put up with playing out of position,which probably helped his injury,as he didn't have to run up and down the pitch,putting more stress on it).

He leads by example on the field and off it,he trains hard,which pushes others to up their game,apparently he's a massive influence in the England and LFC changing room,when things need to be said.He barks orders and makes sure everyone is on their game while he's on the pitch.

As for playing,he's not the greatest Midfielder we've ever had but on his day,the guy is a work horse who when given the chance to play his real position and get forward more,he can play a decent pass and it's in him to assist and score good goals.He may also not be prolific but there's a lot to be said for the hard work he puts in to make the rest of the team do what they do best,i've always rated him for these reasons,just a shame quite a few others don't.
 



SBYM

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You can't have evidence of unconscious bias. By it's nature even the people effected by it aren't aware of it. You can only discuss how it could have been created and how it can show itself. The only way you can ever prove conscious bias is through an admission by those effected by it. Yet again you can discuss how it was created and how it shows it's effects but how can you prove it? That doesn't mean these things do not exist or aren't having an effect it just means it's unreasonable to demand conclusive proof. There can't be.
I imagine the legions of scientists, psychologists, sociologists etc who have spent their careers examining unconscious bias would disagree with you.

And frankly, no one is demanding 'conclusive proof', just better evidence.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I imagine the legions of scientists, psychologists, sociologists etc who have spent their careers examining unconscious bias would disagree with you.

And frankly, no one is demanding 'conclusive proof', just better evidence.
Do you even understand what unconscious bias is? There's a reason you can't prove what is going on in someone's subconscious when even the subject isn't aware of it.
 

SBYM

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Do you even understand what unconscious bias is? There's a reason you can't prove what is going on in someone's subconscious when even the subject isn't aware of it.
Again, you're the one using the word 'prove'...

And honestly, if you think people working on it haven't demonstrated evidence of unconscious bias you are woefully out of your depth even talking about it.
 
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SBYM

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The Americans seem to call it implicit bias:

Yes it is real.

Yes it matters.

No it has not been properly evidenced in this thread in the context of how LFC is treated on and off the pitch.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Again, you're the one using the word 'prove'...

And honestly, if you think people working on it haven't demonstrated evidence of unconscious bias you are woefully out of your depth even talking about it.
You can show evidence to SUGGEST unconscious bias plays a part in someone's decision making process. You can take a large group and prove that unconscious bias has had an effect. You can challenge someone to explore their decision making. You can't look at a single person's singular decision and prove that it was subject to unconscious bias. Only a person who makes the decision can explore their own decision making and prove it to themselves. At best you can strongly suggest that it is likely that it has played a part as their reasons for their decision do not appear reasonable.
 



Anfield rd Dreamer

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Why? This bit is exactly what I'm suggesting effects referees.

Perception bias - the tendency to believe one thing about a group of people based on stereotypes and assumptions, making it impossible to be objective about individuals

Confirmation bias - the tendency to seek to confirm your pre-existing ideas and assumptions about a group of people

Group think - the tendency to try too hard to fit into an existing culture, mimicking others and holding back thoughts or opinions, resulting in the loss of identity and lost creativity and innovation

We know they talk with each other about mistakes, they admit the media reaction is something that effects them and we've put forward cases of media setting narratives that become accepted such as Salah being a diver without a single documented dive.
 

Dane

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Heard a nice refreshing tale this morning.
Bloke I work with lives in Yarmouth, and his lad was working in one of the local pubs last night.

He said the whole pub erupted in scenes of celebration when the VAR decision to disallow the City goal came up.
 

Limiescouse

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I often think of Gerrard in this case. In high spirits after thumping Newcastle, Stevie got into an altercation with a DJ who refused to play a Phil Collins song. There are mixed accounts of what happened, and in the end Gerrard got off with ABH, despite security footage showing Stevie clearly landing blows on the lad. Objectively this is worse that saying a naughty word in a football pitch, but it’s never clung to Gerrard like the racism thing did to Suarez. It was a story for a few weeks and then everyone moved on. We can’t claim an anti-LFC bias in this case.

The simple fact is, as far as I can see, there is a latent racism in the game, and society at large, that visits a harsher judgement on foreign players for lesser crimes than it does for ‘native’ lads.
I have always believed the Rafa Facts press conference was in part an attempt to deflect from the coverage of that incident - it was only about 10 days after the story broke, I think prior to our next league game when a lot of the coverage would otherwise have been about wheather he should be playing). It worked. And it is one of the reasons I have always been so disappointed with Stevie's public comments on that press conference having a destablizing effect on that season.
 
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Zinedine Biscan

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I have always believed the Rafa Facts press conference was in part an attempt to deflect from the coverage of that incident. It worked. And it is one of the reasons I have always been so disappointed with Stevie's public comments on that press conference having a destablizing effect on that season.
Gerrard's views on Rafa are disappointing, period, given that I don't think he'd have become the player he was were it not for Benitez's pushing and coaching.
 

Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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Putting it frankly you are far from grown ups - that would suggest an ability to have rational discussion, and even acknowledging thoughts that deviate from your own and that evidence may exist to support it. That's been pretty clearly proven to not be the case in this thread - once again context for that post was being misquoted to suit a previous posters needs to try and prove a point.........

I'm sure if the press did the same to Klopp it would be emblazoned across here as another clear example of a targeted bias against Liverpool........

Anyway I'm done - best of luck...........
The forum equivalent of slamming the door on your way out. Yeah very grown up.
Since we're being so rigorous and intellectual let's begin here and work outwards...

https://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=evidence+of+unconscious+bias&oq=
Poo poo the other source quoted yet expecting YOUR quoted source to be taken seriously. SMH (thanks Dane. Didn't realise I'd be using this so often).
 



Kenny Dalglish LFC Legend

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I don't think any of us are stupid enough to think it's cast iron irrefutable proof that we've posted (that's why I called it Circumstantial evidence) but it's at the least interesting. I mean I haven't seen anyone come up with anything like a reasonable explanation other than "it doesn't prove anything".

Hope even said he couldn't explain it away.
I haven't read those articles. It's late and I'm off to bobies but I'll read them tomorrow in the interests of fair play.
Quoting myself but for those posters who keep insisting that we think we have done some 100% bona fide scientific research, examined the data and have written a thesis that will gain us entry to Harvard or Yale. We know we haven't but we have provided a lot more than all the other camps with their nuance and detail (is that ok Mascot88).

Although the only nuance I can see in their arguments amounts to the same thing. Grow up. Doesn't anything. That's not robust evidence.

SMBY or whatever your initials are, says scientists would laugh at us. The irony of it when I look at your statements on the subject.
 

Prolix

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How are we supposed to prove a negative?

Y'all have chosen your narrative and are content to fit everything into that frame. So go be content.
 

epsomred

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You've been waiting quite some time to pounce on this opportunity haven't you?
I just want to be clear what your side if the debate is saying. @Quicksand says it’s an insult to call you a bunch of conspiracy theorists then @cynicaloldgit says anyone who can’t see the conspiracy against lfc is naive and believes in Santa Claus. Yet you all seem to like each other’s posts so does this mean that there is a conspiracy or not ? It would be helpful for the debate if you could at least agree on the existence and definition of this thing that you all can prove exists but the rest of us are too dumb to see.
 



Kopstar

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I just want to be clear what your side if the debate is saying. @Quicksand says it’s an insult to call you a bunch of conspiracy theorists then @cynicaloldgit says anyone who can’t see the conspiracy against lfc is naive and believes in Santa Claus. Yet you all seem to like each other’s posts so does this mean that there is a conspiracy or not ? It would be helpful for the debate if you could at least agree on the existence and definition of this thing that you all can prove exists but the rest of us are too dumb to see.
Views are quite a fair bit more nuanced than you're suggesting they are.
 

Mascot88

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I have always believed the Rafa Facts press conference was in part an attempt to deflect from the coverage of that incident - it was only about 10 days after the story broke, I think prior to our next league game when a lot of the coverage would otherwise have been about wheather he should be playing). It worked. And it is one of the reasons I have always been so disappointed with Stevie's public comments on that press conference having a destablizing effect on that season.
My opinion too. I’ve always believed Rafa took one for his captain there.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I just want to be clear what your side if the debate is saying. @Quicksand says it’s an insult to call you a bunch of conspiracy theorists then @cynicaloldgit says anyone who can’t see the conspiracy against lfc is naive and believes in Santa Claus. Yet you all seem to like each other’s posts so does this mean that there is a conspiracy or not ? It would be helpful for the debate if you could at least agree on the existence and definition of this thing that you all can prove exists but the rest of us are too dumb to see.
Funny the mods had a go at me over my polarizing bullshit. What's this if not polarizing?
 

Quicksand

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I just want to be clear what your side if the debate is saying. @Quicksand says it’s an insult to call you a bunch of conspiracy theorists then @cynicaloldgit says anyone who can’t see the conspiracy against lfc is naive and believes in Santa Claus. Yet you all seem to like each other’s posts so does this mean that there is a conspiracy or not ? It would be helpful for the debate if you could at least agree on the existence and definition of this thing that you all can prove exists but the rest of us are too dumb to see.
How many times are you going to come back after storming out??
For clarity.
I am not a conspiracy theorist and regard it as insulting to be branded so.
Conspiracies theorists see things that dont exist, what I have commented on definitley exists. If @cynicaloldgit uses the term conspiracy, it doesnt mean he is incorrect. But the comedic value some people got in using the term in other threads annoyed me.
 

Quicksand

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It would be helpful for the debate if you could at least agree on the existence and definition of this thing that you all can prove exists but the rest of us are too dumb to see.
Over simplification and pigeon holing of a complex issue, so that you can fire arrows in one direction? I dont think its that easy, those of us on THIS side of the debate have given numerous examples, rationales, experiences, history lessons, geographical reasons to illustrate bias against the city and club. All of that evidence has been constantly refuted, with very little of the proof that you yearn for veing offered to disprove our belief.
Polarised views, fair enough. But asking people to package a wide ranging and complex issue up in a bow for you to derail is simplistic and trite.
 



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