Conspiracy? Bias? Dumb luck? Why do LFC get shit decisions?

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Zinedine Biscan

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For the record, it takes much more than a corny thread title to cause me offence.
I didn't quote the rest because I didn't bother reading it.
I'm done in this thread.
That's a shame because it was the perfect summary of what's been happening on the forum.
 

Mascot88

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One I don’t understand is the ‘anyone but Liverpool’ mentality that you get amongst other fans.

All things being equal, you would think that football fans and writers would prefer success forna team who hasn’t won it for thirty years, to one that won it last year, looks set to dominate the sport for years, leapfrogged it’s way to success by doping the squad with a billion pounds, has been found guilty of FFP violations in the past, is under investigation again, has a very shady undercurrent of more general financial illegality, and is financed by stealing the wealth of a impoverished sovereign state who’s owner have the worst human rights record in the world and literally murder people.

But I suppose Scousers can be a bit gobby.
 

Barnestormer

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Its also analogous to playground bullying, safety in numbers etc., LFC seems to be the top club that the rest like to gang up on, it coalesces them. Its simply because we dominated for so long and havent won it since for such a time, its an easy taunt.
 

Rambler

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I get what @Mascot88 said about referee bias and human nature being what it is means that you can't eliminate that completely.....but it does seem odd that on every other club forum that I look at there is a thread about officials not giving their club fair treatment. I take an interest in the two Glasgow clubs and both sets of fans claim the refs are biased against them and favour the other side.

Fans here claim referees are biased in favour of City and yet on their forum they claim we get unfair penalties and the refs favour us too much....

No doubt fans of all the other Premier League clubs feel the same. Can they possibly all be correct that refs are biased against their team? :think:

I actually feel sorry for the refs. They hardly ever get praise but every controversial decision gets viewed from every angle ... and then they get pilloried for a marginal offside that they got one split second to spot.

If you look back at some of the games in the 70s and 80s on YouTube you realise how truly appalling the refs were then compared to now.

The truth is that it is not an exact science and depends more than any other sport on interpretations. The ref "expert" on BT last week said it was a definite penalty for United at PSG. I read next day that Clattenburg had said it definitely wasn't. A third one, (can't remember who now) said it was.
 
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Commando

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I get what @Mascot88 said about referee bias and human nature being what it is means that you can't eliminate that completely.....but it does seem odd that on every other club forum that I look at there is a thread about officials not giving their club fair treatment. I take an interest in the two Glasgow clubs and both sets of fans claim the refs are biased against them and favour the other side.

Fans here claim referees are biased in favour of City and yet on their forum they claim we get unfair penalties and the refs favour us too much....

No doubt fans of all the other Premier League clubs feel the same. Can they possibly all be correct that refs are biased against their team? :think:

I actually feel sorry for the refs. They hardly ever get praise but every controversial decision gets viewed from every angle ... and then they get pilloried for a marginal offside that they got one split second to spot.

If you look back at some of the games in the 70s and 80s on YouTube you realise how truly appalling the refs were then compared to now.

The truth is that it is not an exact science and depends more than any other sport on interpretations. The ref "expert" on BT last week said it was a definite penalty for United at PSG. I read next day that Clattenburg had said it definitely wasn't. A third one, (can't remember who now) said it was.
IIRC Clattenburg said that it was a penalty by the new directive being used in the UCL this season, but it shouldn't be as the directive is flawed.
 

SBYM

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And really, LFC is bloody huge. It is a truly global club that currently employs one of the most charismatic managers in the game. Many people stand to make a metric fuck tonne of cash if we break the drought.

That being the case, those who say it's naive to bury your head in the sand re the biases working against us, I'd like to retort by stating it is far more naive to disregard the fact that money talks and many very powerful people would be tickled pink if the PL is Red come May.
 
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DeathOrGlory

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Can't stand it when people go on about bias refs, media.

When you go on other forums of other teams the curious thing is that they are all also complaining of the same things.

Which make you wonder, is it all a frequency illusion? Are we only remembering the times we get unlucky, or a bad call against us and forget all the times we got a lucky pen, or escaped a 2nd yellow? Are we forgetting all the positive media articles (well, we probably didn't even read those)?
 

Prolix

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During his time at United the highest average time added on at the end of games was when Ferguson was chasing a goal when it reached the 90th minute. The lowest amount added on was when United were winning when it reached 90. If anyone still thinks the officials aren't influenced I think they're deluded.
Possible counterpoint:

A team (likely any team) beating Manchester United in their pomp is more likely to engage in time-wasting in order to see out the win.

This is the problem I have with this whole discussion, is that all "evidence" on show is purely anecdotal. That doesn't mean it isn't possibly correct, but it does mean that care and effort must be taken to describe the mechanisms underlying those anecdotes and dispel confounding variables/theories.
 

Commando

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Possible counterpoint:

A team (likely any team) beating Manchester United in their pomp is more likely to engage in time-wasting in order to see out the win.

This is the problem I have with this whole discussion, is that all "evidence" on show is purely anecdotal. That doesn't mean it isn't possibly correct, but it does mean that care and effort must be taken to describe the mechanisms underlying those anecdotes and dispel confounding variables/theories.
But it's how time added on is inconsistently applied. I've seen countless examples of second halves where there have been six separate substitutions, with goals and yellow/red cards plus stoppages for an injury where the ref has played only three added minutes. There was also the famous Micheal Owen manc Derby winner where Citoil equalised in added time. The ref then played added added time to compensate for the time Citoil spent celebrating. It was in this added added time the the winner was scored. There have been examples since where the same thing has happened (a goal in added time) where no time was added to the already allotted added time. I'll say again that I don't think there's a conspiracy, but the inconsistency really riles me.
One more example from a recent game. Citoil versus Rotherham in the FA cup. Something like four goals, six subs and a few yellow cards in the second half. The ref blew on exactly ninety minutes. Citoil were winning seven nil. The ref probably thought that Rotherham had had enough. Not his call to make. He's there to apply the laws consistently.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Possible counterpoint:

A team (likely any team) beating Manchester United in their pomp is more likely to engage in time-wasting in order to see out the win.

This is the problem I have with this whole discussion, is that all "evidence" on show is purely anecdotal. That doesn't mean it isn't possibly correct, but it does mean that care and effort must be taken to describe the mechanisms underlying those anecdotes and dispel confounding variables/theories.
The problem with that stance is how far do you take it before accepting that, with so many coincidences, you have to decide on the balance of probability. I actually used that example as several retired officials have admitted the influences and pressures from him that they were working under. It's pretty much universally acknowledged and accepted instance of how bias can be created and influence games. Despite Rafa still being mocked for trying to bring it into focus when it mattered.
 

redalways

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But it's how time added on is inconsistently applied. I've seen countless examples of second halves where there have been six separate substitutions, with goals and yellow/red cards plus stoppages for an injury where the ref has played only three added minutes. There was also the famous Micheal Owen manc Derby winner where Citoil equalised in added time. The ref then played added added time to compensate for the time Citoil spent celebrating. It was in this added added time the the winner was scored. There have been examples since where the same thing has happened (a goal in added time) where no time was added to the already allotted added time. I'll say again that I don't think there's a conspiracy, but the inconsistency really riles me.
One more example from a recent game. Citoil versus Rotherham in the FA cup. Something like four goals, six subs and a few yellow cards in the second half. The ref blew on exactly ninety minutes. Citoil were winning seven nil. The ref probably thought that Rotherham had had enough. Not his call to make. He's there to apply the laws consistently.
I think it goes beyond added time to a whole lot of different matters. For example, there are often posts about why we don't have a Souness-style hard man who would kick lumps out of the opposition, but given the way so many of our matches have been refereed, I think it is largely a matter as well of referees not applying the rules evenly, where the opposing team kicks lumps out of our players with impunity, but go down at the lightest touch to win fouls. I'm sure Henderson or Milner would be dying to stick a cheeky one in, but at the same time they're aware that if they do, it's most likely going to be a yellow card for them at the least, if not worse. We therefore can't even figure out how to play to the referee's standards, let alone beat the other team properly...

Another issue to look out for is trying to conflate what could very well be a mix of issues into either bias OR luck, without any nuance. Most incidents are probably a mix of the various factors...
 

epsomred

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One I don’t understand is the ‘anyone but Liverpool’ mentality that you get amongst other fans.

All things being equal, you would think that football fans and writers would prefer success forna team who hasn’t won it for thirty years, to one that won it last year, looks set to dominate the sport for years, leapfrogged it’s way to success by doping the squad with a billion pounds, has been found guilty of FFP violations in the past, is under investigation again, has a very shady undercurrent of more general financial illegality, and is financed by stealing the wealth of a impoverished sovereign state who’s owner have the worst human rights record in the world and literally murder people.

But I suppose Scousers can be a bit gobby.
I think you massively underestimate how widely disliked we are by other fans both in Manchester and London. I have lived and worked in both for decades now and nobody in either of those cities has any time for us. Open offensive hatred. You hear the chants of “Feed the scousers, always the victims, self pity city” and far far worse pretty much at every London away game. It’s not that they want city to win, other fans just can’t bear the thought of us winning it. These conspiracy theories just add fuel to this vile hatred which is why they piss me off so much.
 

sms1986

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Anyone worried about the ref tonight? UEFA might not like four English clubs in the last eight.
What's so different now compared to when that happened in 07/08? That season even saw three English clubs in the semis and an all-English final. The next season saw something similar although only one of the three English semi-finalists was in the final.
 

Arminius

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Anyone worried about the ref tonight? UEFA might not like four English clubs in the last eight.
Orsato seems to be a straight shooter - sent off Pogba at Old Trafford, which could play both ways to your fears, but I am in general more worried about a referee knuckling under to crowd pressure than deliberate attempts to manipulate outcomes.
 

RedForever2014

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I think you massively underestimate how widely disliked we are by other fans both in Manchester and London. I have lived and worked in both for decades now and nobody in either of those cities has any time for us. Open offensive hatred. You hear the chants of “Feed the scousers, always the victims, self pity city” and far far worse pretty much at every London away game. It’s not that they want city to win, other fans just can’t bear the thought of us winning it. These conspiracy theories just add fuel to this vile hatred which is why they piss me off so much.
Now if I'd have said that...
 



RedForever2014

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.....I would have agreed with you.
And a certain poster on here would have extrapolated my saying it, and inferred that observing such things about mindless supporters of other clubs, means that one cannot simultaneously enjoy and appreciate the more broadminded and cultured people that I had the good fortune of mixing with when in London myself.

Anyway, good point.
 

sms1986

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This is the conspiracy thread, for sure there are people who think the uefa will try nobble us
Although as I pointed out, there was two seasons not too long ago where there were four English teams in the last eight.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Although as I pointed out, there was two seasons not too long ago where there were four English teams in the last eight.
Not that I agree with the initial fear but you seem to use this all or nothing stance on this a lot on these matters. Teams that are being given an unfair advantage can still lose. Teams facing poor officiating against them can still win. The fact that four English sides make it to the last 8 isn't proof that there wasn't an attempt to stop it happening.
 
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