Dani Ceballos (CM) Real Madrid

teto_pp

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#2
I dont mind him comming over and looks like a real prospect, but a prospect non the less.

A Solanke type signing, for the future and to get a bitnof experience next season.
 

SithBaare

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#3
He's somewhat better than a good prospect. Real got him cause they didn't want Barca to sign him. And Zizou has his midfield packed to not give him games.

At this stage, He should be a replacement for Lallana(who's increasingly looking injury prone).
 

Zinedine Biscan

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#7
Spent 10 minutes Googling and Youtubing the shit out of him, so am officially now an expert.

Ok, above obviously tongue in cheek a bit. His style looks a bit Coutinho-esque while positionally playing a bit deeper and more centrally, does that sound about right?
 

Dave-D

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#8
Still can’t believe Real Madrid want over double what they paid for him and he’s only made TWO league starts for them :shocked:
 

SithBaare

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#9
Spent 10 minutes Googling and Youtubing the shit out of him, so am officially now an expert.

Ok, above obviously tongue in cheek a bit. His style looks a bit Coutinho-esque while positionally playing a bit deeper and more centrally, does that sound about right?
A good mate who's a Real Madrid fan says that he's very good. Just that with Zizou and his lack of tactics, he's not finding game time.
 

Nikola

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#10
He's a player blessed with exquisite technical ability and ability to dribble past people and carry the ball forward at speed from deeper roles - just like Klopp likes his central midfielders. He's somewhere between an attacking midfielder and a central midfielder, at least he used to be before he started altering between seats on Real Madrid's bench. When I saw him play for Betis and Spanish U21s, I thought that this guy would be Iniesta's heir but Real Madrid got him instead - so I thought this guy would be Modrić's heir! Even though he didn't set the world alight there, I don't think Real Madrid made a mistake bringing him in but I still think he made a mistake in joining them over Barcelona, there was no way he was dislodging either Modrić or Kroos. That said, like Lucas Hernandez, just like Isco or Marcelo before, he was a long-term signing for them and I think he's on their level of talent (when Real Madrid signed him).

However, I honestly don't think there's anything in this. Very dodgy sources aside, I think that Klopp will be looking for a central midfielder of sorts, even with Keita coming in and probably a deep-lying midfielder, too, but to me it looks like he's grooming AOC for that second CM role. While someone like Ceballos would probably arrive as a long-term successor to increasingly injury prone Lallana, would he really switch a bench at Real Madrid and a shot at replacing ageing Modrić for a completely new team, new league and somewhat a different style of play?
 

SithBaare

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#11
was named the player of the tournament for the UEFA U21 in 2017.

He fits the profile for Real Madrid imo. Even if they sell him to a Liverpool for instance. They would attach a buy-back clause.
 

GermanRed

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#12
I think Grujic will go out on loan again next season.

I can’t see any of Lallana, Wijnaldum or Milner leave.

I hope we will replace Can (if he leaves) with Neves or Jorginho (I think that one will happen)

If we still want to replace Coutinho or bring back some of his qualities like the skills, speedy dribblings and technical abilities then Dani Ceballos would fit the bill. If Klopp would want to pay £40m for him I would back him but I think he will be available for less.

So here are three scenarios how our midfield could look like (I try to order them from 'deep' to 'attacking'):

1. All in
Can replacement (Jorginho?), Henderson, Wijnaldum, Milner, Lallana, Keita, Ceballos, Ox

Wouldn‘t that be too many midfielders?

2. In-house Can replacement
Henderson, Wijnaldum (converted to mainly #6), Milner, Lallana, Keita, Ceballos, Ox

Wouldn‘t most of us be disappointed because our DM would still be unchanged?

3. No Coutinho skills No Problem
Can replacement (Jorginho?), Henderson, Wijnaldum, Milner, Lallana, Keita, Ox

No disrespect to Lallana, Keita and Ox but Coutinho had useful skills that will be missed sooner or later.
 

SithBaare

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#13
I think Grujic will go out on loan again next season.

I can’t see any of Lallana, Wijnaldum or Milner leave.

I hope we will replace Can (if he leaves) with Neves or Jorginho (I think that one will happen)

If we still want to replace Coutinho or bring back some of his qualities like the skills, speedy dribblings and technical abilities then Dani Ceballos would fit the bill. If Klopp would want to pay £40m for him I would back him but I think he will be available for less.

So here are three scenarios how our midfield could look like (I try to order them from 'deep' to 'attacking'):

1. All in
Can replacement (Jorginho?), Henderson, Wijnaldum, Milner, Lallana, Keita, Ceballos, Ox

Wouldn‘t that be too many midfielders?

2. In-house Can replacement
Henderson, Wijnaldum (converted to mainly #6), Milner, Lallana, Keita, Ceballos, Ox

Wouldn‘t most of us be disappointed because our DM would still be unchanged?

3. No Coutinho skills No Problem
Can replacement (Jorginho?), Henderson, Wijnaldum, Milner, Lallana, Keita, Ox

No disrespect to Lallana, Keita and Ox but Coutinho had useful skills that will be missed sooner or later.
If i was Klopp, I'd look at getting Grujic some first team action. Start him out with the league cup and FA cup for starters. We basically gave away the cups this time around because of the lack of squad depth combined with the instability when Coutinho left.

I'd look at Ceballos Grujic and Henderson for the FA Cup/League Cup squads....

Ward
Gomez VVD Klavan Moreno
Ceballos Grujic Henderson/Milner
(The forward line to be rotated with Solanke, Ings, Zaha?, Mane, Salah, Firmino , Woodburn , Brewster reckon even Ox can do a job here if needed)

where we are missing out with coutinho right now is his right foot shots from outside the box. He was always good for an outside the box goal. We probably need someone similar to take over the free kick duties. Coutinho did have the bad habit of overdoing the long shots and it has made us better when he left because we played to the strengths of the front three which is run in behind the defenders and score in open play. But against park the bus teams, We need someone who can deliver a good long ball or a killer free kick.
 

Koon

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#14
News from Calciomercato, the italian Don Balon. Not buying it.

Also, I don't rate him. His end product is basically nothing and he can't defend. Would be much better to go for other alternatives.

If i was Klopp, I'd look at getting Grujic some first team action. Start him out with the league cup and FA cup for starters. We basically gave away the cups this time around because of the lack of squad depth combined with the instability when Coutinho left.

I'd look at Ceballos Grujic and Henderson for the FA Cup/League Cup squads....

Ward
Gomez VVD Klavan Moreno
Ceballos Grujic Henderson/Milner
(The forward line to be rotated with Solanke, Ings, Zaha?, Mane, Salah, Firmino , Woodburn , Brewster reckon even Ox can do a job here if needed)

where we are missing out with coutinho right now is his right foot shots from outside the box. He was always good for an outside the box goal. We probably need someone similar to take over the free kick duties. Coutinho did have the bad habit of overdoing the long shots and it has made us better when he left because we played to the strengths of the front three which is run in behind the defenders and score in open play. But against park the bus teams, We need someone who can deliver a good long ball or a killer free kick.
So Bruno Fernandes is your guy. Creativity, set pieces and long shots.
 
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MW2833

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#15
Wouldn't buy him for anything more than 25 million. Still think there are better options like Fernandes and Havertz.
 

D Fred

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#17
Is Ceballos that good? Would he be an upgrade on Wijnaldum or Lallana?
There's risk involved but he has a crazy upside. He's good at everything you need to be an elite midfielder, has lacked a defined role in his career thus far so does a lot of stuff that's kind of superfluous but he has incredible ability and is excellent physically.

There's a Statsbomb article from 2015 (?) which at the time stated that whether Arsenal want an AM, CM or DM Wenger should buy Naby because he could perform each role at an elite level the same could probably be said for Ceballos at SS, AM & CM.
 

Koon

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#18
Is Ceballos that good? Would he be an upgrade on Wijnaldum or Lallana?
Anything could be an upgrade on Gini or Lallana nowadays. But Ceballos is an offensive player, he's can't replicate Gini, only Lallana.

Ceballos is the worst Real Madrid midfielder, even Llorente is more useful. People talk about how Zidane was to blame because Ceballos didn't get any time to play, but the truth is that when he wad his chances, he wasn't good at all.

I really don't understand why people are hyped about him. He is just an average midfielder with one good season. Also, about this "good" season: 30 games, 2 goals and 2 assists for Betis. His end product is very poor.
 

sportbilly1966

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#19
Just scouted him on youtube 'as you do'

Didn't really impress me, he wasn't standout and IMO wasn't right!
 

SithBaare

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#20
News from Calciomercato, the italian Don Balon. Not buying it.

Also, I don't rate him. His end product is basically nothing and he can't defend. Would be much better to go for other alternativ
So Bruno Fernandes is your guy. Creativity, set pieces and long shots.
Look at his age. You do need works in progresses.
 

Iluvatar

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#21
Signed last summer for £20mil.. Played no games, now being sold for £40mil.. Now thats what I'd call moneyball!

Seems to me we are looking at a specific player aka the Lallana replacement. A creative, forward dribbling no.10 type who will rotate with Oxlade..

Maddison, Ceballos, Havertz are all very similar in that respect.
 

GermanRed

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#22
Signed last summer for £20mil.. Played no games, now being sold for £40mil.. Now thats what I'd call moneyball!

Seems to me we are looking at a specific player aka the Lallana replacement. A creative, forward dribbling no.10 type who will rotate with Oxlade..

Maddison, Ceballos, Havertz are all very similar in that respect.
Lallana will be here next season so no reason to write him off already.

Coutinhos creativity in midfield still needs to be replaced and the players you mentioned would fit, would probably need 4-5 month to be Klopp ready like Ox.
 

Iluvatar

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#23
Lallana will be here next season so no reason to write him off already.

Coutinhos creativity in midfield still needs to be replaced and the players you mentioned would fit, would probably need 4-5 month to be Klopp ready like Ox.
Coutinho's creativity from midfield has been replaced by Oxlade. He is assisting or scoring every 128minutes (and I think he'll be a 10 goal 15 assist player next season.)
Coutinho's creativity from the left has been replaced by Mane.

I think a Coutinho replacement is no longer required, hence why Lemar could well not be a target anymore.

If you look at how many minutes Lallana has been available for in his time here it's around 50%.. He cannot be relied on sadly, and at 30 his time here may be up. How can you have a rotation player that is never available to rotate?
 

GermanRed

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#24
Coutinho's creativity from midfield has been replaced by Oxlade. He is assisting or scoring every 128minutes (and I think he'll be a 10 goal 15 assist player next season.)
Coutinho's creativity from the left has been replaced by Mane.

I think a Coutinho replacement is no longer required, hence why Lemar could well not be a target anymore.

If you look at how many minutes Lallana has been available for in his time here it's around 50%.. He cannot be relied on sadly, and at 30 his time here may be up. How can you have a rotation player that is never available to rotate?
Whether as replacement for Lallana or Coutinho I think you agree we need someone. Probably not a marquee signing as he would rotate with the likes of Keita and Ox - Dani Ceballos could be perfect after a few months.

Meanwhile we should not give up on Lallana (and i don't think Klopp will move him out). Think he can still be at least someone who can take us through the early stages of the domestic cups.
 

Koon

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#25
Look at his age. You do need works in progresses.
Agree. He will be a better player in the future, but if you compare him to players like Havertz, James Maddison, Leon Bailey, Ndombele, Aouar, David Neres, Frenkie de Jong, Malcom, Ruben Neves and so on, they are all 19~21 year old players with a lot of end product. All of them. We could buy any of those players and they are all better than Ceballos if we compare what they can do in the field.

We have our "Ceballos" already, his name is Woodburn. Good potential lad, a lot of ability, nice dribbling skills and vision. Why would we waste money on another Woodburn?

We have so many better options that it's almost crazy thinking about Ceballos.

Coutinho's creativity from midfield has been replaced by Oxlade. He is assisting or scoring every 128minutes (and I think he'll be a 10 goal 15 assist player next season.)
Coutinho's creativity from the left has been replaced by Mane.

I think a Coutinho replacement is no longer required, hence why Lemar could well not be a target anymore.

If you look at how many minutes Lallana has been available for in his time here it's around 50%.. He cannot be relied on sadly, and at 30 his time here may be up. How can you have a rotation player that is never available to rotate?
Look (PL stats, data from Whoscored):

Coutinho: 1 goal or assist every 79~80 minutes - 2.8 key passes per game
Ox: 1 goal or assist every 148~149 minutes - 1.7 key passes per game

Ox looks good, but he is nowhere near as good as Coutinho when we are talking about creativity. Ox is a good player when he has space to run, he is strong and he has nice ball control, but he is not exactly a playmaker. He brings other things to the table, but he won't replace Coutinho.

I still think Klopp will bring a first team playmaker. He tried Goretzka in january, there's talks about Maddison (huge potential,imo) too. I'm kinda positive we will have 3 new players in our MF.
 



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Anfield rd Dreamer

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#26
Agree. He will be a better player in the future, but if you compare him to players like Havertz, James Maddison, Leon Bailey, Ndombele, Aouar, David Neres, Frenkie de Jong, Malcom, Ruben Neves and so on, they are all 19~21 year old players with a lot of end product. All of them. We could buy any of those players and they are all better than Ceballos if we compare what they can do in the field.

We have our "Ceballos" already, his name is Woodburn. Good potential lad, a lot of ability, nice dribbling skills and vision. Why would we waste money on another Woodburn?

We have so many better options that it's almost crazy thinking about Ceballos.



Look (PL stats):

Coutinho: 1 goal or assist every 79~80 minutes - 2.8 key passes per game
Ox: 1 goal or assist every 148~149 minutes - 1.7 key passes per game

Ox looks good, but he is nowhere near as good as Coutinho when we are talking about cretivity. Ox is a good player when he has space to run, he is strong and he has nice ball control, but he is not exactly a playmaker. He brings other things to the table, but he won't replace Coutinho.

I still think Klopp will bring a first team playmaker. He tried Goretzka in january, there's talks about Maddison (huge potential,imo) too. I'm kinda positive we will have 3 new players in our MF.
You're comparing a player who mostly played in a front 3 or 4 with sometimes some CM defensive duties (sometimes) to a CM. Even if he's usually the CM with the most attacking responsibility he is still not playing the role that Coutinho did. Goretzka wouldn't have either. You seem in many posts to be obsessed with replacing Coutinho in CM and I think you have it wrong. Klopp altered his plans to shoehorn Coutinho in.

Sometimes that was simply playing him instead of Mane at LF which increased the creativity in that side but decreased the speed of play. Now Robertson has kicked on he provides some of that lost creativity and Manes pace helps address the balance in our favour. We are actually better now on that left side without Coutinho when we play 4-3-3. If we can add a player who is more creative than Mane without losing his pace and goal threat we'll kick on even further.

In regards CM we are now more balanced than we were when we were shoe horning Coutinho in. Ox is much more of the attacking box to box. He's kicked on well and a lot faster since we missed out on Goretzka. Klopp may now be looking at Henderson(holding)-Keita(middle box to box)-Ox(forward box to box) backed up by Gini (not my choice)-Milner-Lallana. I think he was originally looking at Lallana and Ox being the back ups with Goretzka and Keita as the starters. Now the links seem to be to replacements for Lallana not starters over Ox. If they're true.

All a long way of saying you don't need to keep going on about Coutinho replacements in CM. We don't need that kind of playmaker anymore it's something else we are looking for now the blueprint has been rewritten without Coutinho.
 

Koon

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#27
You're comparing a player who mostly played in a front 3 or 4 with sometimes some CM defensive duties (sometimes) to a CM. Even if he's usually the CM with the most attacking responsibility he is still not playing the role that Coutinho did. Goretzka wouldn't have either. You seem in many posts to be obsessed with replacing Coutinho in CM and I think you have it wrong. Klopp altered his plans to shoehorn Coutinho in.

Sometimes that was simply playing him instead of Mane at LF which increased the creativity in that side but decreased the speed of play. Now Robertson has kicked on he provides some of that lost creativity and Manes pace helps address the balance in our favour. We are actually better now on that left side without Coutinho when we play 4-3-3. If we can add a player who is more creative than Mane without losing his pace and goal threat we'll kick on even further.

In regards CM we are now more balanced than we were when we were shoe horning Coutinho in. Ox is much more of the attacking box to box. He's kicked on well and a lot faster since we missed out on Goretzka. Klopp may now be looking at Henderson(holding)-Keita(middle box to box)-Ox(forward box to box) backed up by Gini (not my choice)-Milner-Lallana. I think he was originally looking at Lallana and Ox being the back ups with Goretzka and Keita as the starters. Now the links seem to be to replacements for Lallana not starters over Ox. If they're true.

All a long way of saying you don't need to keep going on about Coutinho replacements in CM. We don't need that kind of playmaker anymore it's something else we are looking for now the blueprint has been rewritten without Coutinho.
I'm just trying to read what Klopp thinks:
- When all avaiable, Klopp would always play the front 4 Coutinho/Mané/Salah/Firmino even though Ox was avaiable.
- Since Dortmund, all his teams have had a true playmaker and a deep lying playmaker
- He wasn't planning on losing Coutinho and we all know we tried Lemar
- Klopp has been using what he has avaiable this season to build this team

Also the stuff about balance, I simply don't buy it. People forget that VVD arrived in january and Coutinho left in january. They forget Robertson was not a starter until december, that Arnold was not as good as now, that Mané was not having a very good season, that Mignolet was our starter and Karius was in bad shape.

We would be begging for a player like Coutinho if we wouldn't have him. Actually, we are: people now want Draxler, Dybala, Lemar etc., well, Coutinho was this player.

My thinking is simple: Klopp is using what he has now, but he has a way of playing football and that requires a good deep lying playmaker and an offensive playmaker, he has always played like this. He lost Coutinho, now he will look for a similar player. Lallana could be this player, but we can not trust he will be fit (in fact, I think he will be sold or loaned).

I will be very surprised in case Klopp won't bring another playmaker. Even this Ceballos thread mean people are thinking about having another CM playmaker. Klopp won't be satisfied with Lallana and Ox only, I doubt that.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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#28
I'm just trying to read what Klopp thinks:
- When all avaiable, Klopp would always play the front 4 Coutinho/Mané/Salah/Firmino even though Ox was avaiable.
- Since Dortmund, all his teams have had a true playmaker and a deep lying playmaker
- He wasn't planning on losing Coutinho and we all know we tried Lemar
- Klopp has been using what he has avaiable this season to build this team

Also the stuff about balance, I simply don't buy it. People forget that VVD arrived in january and Coutinho left in january. They forget Robertson was not a starter until december, that Arnold was not as good as now, that Mané was not having a very good season, that Mignolet was our starter and Karius was in bad shape.

We would be begging for a player like Coutinho if we wouldn't have him. Actually, we are: people now want Draxler, Dybala, Lemar etc., well, Coutinho was this player.

My thinking is simple: Klopp is using what he has now, but he has a way of playing football and that requires a good deep lying playmaker and an offensive playmaker, he has always played like this. He lost Coutinho, now he will look for a similar player. Lallana could be this player, but we can not trust he will be fit (in fact, I think he will be sold or loaned).

I will be very surprised in case Klopp won't bring another playmaker. Even this Ceballos thread mean people are thinking about having another CM playmaker. Klopp won't be satisfied with Lallana and Ox only, I doubt that.
I think the playmaker we sign will be a fast paced left sided forward who can mean Mane isn't an automatic choice there and play on the right a bit (Salah rested or playing CF so Firmino is rested).

The four players you list are quite different and what fans cry out for has never reflected on what Klopp has actually done.

What Klopp did at Dortmund won't be mirrored exactly here. He has more control than he did there and different tactical challenges.

We aren't suffering for our midfield not being creative enough this season and it'll be more creative next season with Keita coming in (especially if someone like Jorginho follows him through the door). Don't need to change formation back to fit Coutinho or alternative in. You have it backwards. This half of the season isn't Klopp using what he has. Having and using Coutinho was Klopp using what he had.
 

RedSeven

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#29
I'm just trying to read what Klopp thinks:
- When all avaiable, Klopp would always play the front 4 Coutinho/Mané/Salah/Firmino even though Ox was avaiable.
- Since Dortmund, all his teams have had a true playmaker and a deep lying playmaker
- He wasn't planning on losing Coutinho and we all know we tried Lemar
- Klopp has been using what he has avaiable this season to build this team

Also the stuff about balance, I simply don't buy it. People forget that VVD arrived in january and Coutinho left in january. They forget Robertson was not a starter until december, that Arnold was not as good as now, that Mané was not having a very good season, that Mignolet was our starter and Karius was in bad shape.

We would be begging for a player like Coutinho if we wouldn't have him. Actually, we are: people now want Draxler, Dybala, Lemar etc., well, Coutinho was this player.

My thinking is simple: Klopp is using what he has now, but he has a way of playing football and that requires a good deep lying playmaker and an offensive playmaker, he has always played like this. He lost Coutinho, now he will look for a similar player. Lallana could be this player, but we can not trust he will be fit (in fact, I think he will be sold or loaned).

I will be very surprised in case Klopp won't bring another playmaker. Even this Ceballos thread mean people are thinking about having another CM playmaker. Klopp won't be satisfied with Lallana and Ox only, I doubt that.
He may be "using what he has" but this also happens to be the best football we have played under Klopp, without Coutinho as well.
He may well go with a deep lying playmaker,but why would he change the best system he has had since he arrived just to use a system which worked well for a while in a different country with an inferior league.
 
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KillerBeeLFC

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#30
He looked a player while at Betis so if we are in for him Ive no doubt Klopp will have a plan to rekindle his old form. Might be just a case of giving the lad some freedom on the pitch to let him play his natural game.