Dani Ceballos (CM) Real Madrid

Koon

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#31
I think the playmaker we sign will be a fast paced left sided forward who can mean Mane isn't an automatic choice there and play on the right a bit (Salah rested or playing CF so Firmino is rested).

The four players you list are quite different and what fans cry out for has never reflected on what Klopp has actually done.

What Klopp did at Dortmund won't be mirrored exactly here. He has more control than he did there and different tactical challenges.

We aren't suffering for our midfield not being creative enough this season and it'll be more creative next season with Keita coming in (especially if someone like Jorginho follows him through the door). Don't need to change formation back to fit Coutinho or alternative in. You have it backwards. This half of the season isn't Klopp using what he has. Having and using Coutinho was Klopp using what he had.
Well, I agree about the player you are talking about, but I think it will be a LW also able to play as AM/CM when needed. That's why Klopp wanted Lemar as Coutinho's substitute. Lemar would never be a backup player here, he would start just like Coutinho used to, always the front 4.

I agree the players I listed are different, but they are all AM/LW offensive players and none of them would be a backup here, all starters.

I think we obviously can replicate what Klopp did at Dortmund because the playstyle hasn't changed, only the system. Also, did he had to use Gotze as his playmaker? Did he had to use Gundogan as his deep lying playmaker? Did he had to use Coutinho as 8? And using Coutinho as LW in 2016/2017 and buying a RW and using Coutinho as 8 was something he had to do also? Was he okay with Coutinho leaving? Why did the tried to buy Lemar if he was okay with Coutinho leaving? He had the summer window to build his team and in december he lost Coutinho. Was that an option?

Tbh, I think you have it backwards, man.

See, Klopp's past shows that we will buy a playmaker CM able to play as winger and he will be a starter. Coutinho was our best player when he was here, that undeniable. He may even buy a first team playmaker CM and a backup winger for Salah/Mané, for example.

We should know our manager by now. It's been 2,5 years already.

He may be "using what he has" but this also happens to be the best football we have played under Klopp, without Coutinho as well.
He may well go with a deep lying playmaker,but why would he change the best system he has had since he arrived just to use a system which worked well for a while in a different country with an inferior league.
You are right, probably the best football we have played, but that's half of the answer. As I said before, VVD, Robertson, much improved AA/Mané and Karius have something to do about how good we are playing football. Coutinho leaving is not the answer to why we are playing much better, there's much more to that. Imo, we would be even better with Coutinho here.

Klopp would not change the system, he would be improving it. See, having a playmaker wouldn't make us not having Ox. It's a new alternative. We can make things even better, why wouldn't we do that?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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#32
Well, I agree about the player you are talking about, but I think it will be a LW also able to play as AM/CM when needed. That's why Klopp wanted Lemar as Coutinho's substitute. Lemar would never be a backup player here, he would start just like Coutinho used to, always the front 4.

I agree the players I listed are different, but they are all AM/LW offensive players and none of them would be a backup here, all starters.

I think we obviously can replicate what Klopp did at Dortmund because the playstyle hasn't changed, only the system. Also, did he had to use Gotze as his playmaker? Did he had to use Gundogan as his deep lying playmaker? Did he had to use Coutinho as 8? And using Coutinho as LW in 2016/2017 and buying a RW and using Coutinho as 8 was something he had to do also? Was he okay with Coutinho leaving? Why did the tried to buy Lemar if he was okay with Coutinho leaving? He had the summer window to build his team and in december he lost Coutinho. Was that an option?

Tbh, I think you have it backwards, man.

See, Klopp's past shows that we will buy a playmaker CM able to play as winger and he will be a starter. Coutinho was our best player when he was here, that undeniable. He may even buy a first team playmaker CM and a backup winger for Salah/Mané, for example.

We should know our manager by now. It's been 2,5 years already.



You are right, probably the best football we have played, but that's half of the answer. As I said before, VVD, Robertson, much improved AA/Mané and Karius have something to do about how good we are playing football. Coutinho leaving is not the answer to why we are playing much better, there's much more to that. Imo, we would be even better with Coutinho here.

Klopp would not change the system, he would be improving it. See, having a playmaker wouldn't make us not having Ox. It's a new alternative. We can make things even better, why wouldn't we do that?
Keita is the Gundogan I'm not sure what you are getting at. Jorginho, Keita and Ox is a more creative midfield than you could hope for whilst still being defensively solid (I'm only going on guesswork here obviously but seems creative as hell). Why would you need to drop one of them for a dedicated playmaker? It's already going to be done. The creativity has already been shared around or will be. And yes we went for Lemar. A player who would have no problem being our go to left sided player in a 4-3-3. Maybe the occasional game in CM but usually on the left. The games he'd miss Mane would play there. The games Salah would miss Mane would play on the right. The games Firmino missed Salah would be up top and Mane would be on the right. I think you are focusing too much on starting 11 and back up. All 4 players would play a hell of a lot of football. At high intensity too.
 

Zoran

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#33
I remember someone posting a clip of him last year, wasn't really impressed even if he does have some flair, but I didn't think he used it well (though Pogba also didn't this season and he's a 25-year old with good experience and trophies under his belt). Looked a bit too childish in too important areas of the pitch, even for his age. Of course, he's not a finished article. So it depends if Klopp believes in that talent, does he think he can 'create' a player from him and also at an acceptable price. But I also don't trust too much in this link, not enough serious sources, if any. So won't focus on this one for now, leave it in the shadow until we hear something more concrete.
 

Lynch04

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#35
I cant comment on Ceballos as iv never seen him play.
I wanted to comment on the Couts v Ox comparison. They are different type of players and we dont have to replace like for like styles to be successful.
As i think Klopp himself mentioned, we used to pass the ball to PC and expect him to do something. PC was a great player for us but i think it is clear that we are more effective as a team without him. AOC is more direct, will pressure players more, pass earlier and shoot earlier. I said before with his league goal against man city a PC, Mane, Salah probably would have looked to cut in to create a curling effort rather than just put their laces through it.
Im not for one moment saying that one player is better than an other. But that one may suit the team better. And that just because one players style/technique was successful in the team that he has to be replaced with a player of similar style/technique for the team to be still be successful.
 

Iluvatar

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#36
We're always being linked to players from Real Madrid, but they are rarely serious. Why has this one suddenly become believable?
Whilst our papers are utter dogshit in terms of spreading bullshit, the Spanish papers are on the whole mouth pieces for Real or Barca, so even worse.. I wouldn't trust them more than I trust John Cross and he is a thunder cnut of the highest order.
 

Scouser268

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#37
Ceballos is a phenomenal talent.

I saw him play for his national team when they won the U-23 tournament or something like that (maybe I'm wrong in the years). The guy was clearly the best player, better than Isco and others.

With some great coaching, he could be everything you want in a modern CM. It's a shame he decided to sit on Real's bench.
 

Koon

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#38
I cant comment on Ceballos as iv never seen him play.
I wanted to comment on the Couts v Ox comparison. They are different type of players and we dont have to replace like for like styles to be successful.
As i think Klopp himself mentioned, we used to pass the ball to PC and expect him to do something. PC was a great player for us but i think it is clear that we are more effective as a team without him. AOC is more direct, will pressure players more, pass earlier and shoot earlier. I said before with his league goal against man city a PC, Mane, Salah probably would have looked to cut in to create a curling effort rather than just put their laces through it.
Im not for one moment saying that one player is better than an other. But that one may suit the team better. And that just because one players style/technique was successful in the team that he has to be replaced with a player of similar style/technique for the team to be still be successful.
Not talking about you obviously, just generaly. Like we say here in Brazil, "A lie that's told a thousand times becomes true".

Coutinho has more tackles and interceptions than Ox:

Coutinho - 1.2 tackles per game and 0.7 interceptions
Ox - 1 tackle and 0.5 interceptions per game

Coutinho has more key passes, more goals and assists per game etc.

The only area Ox is better than Coutinho is at running. He is way faster than Coutinho, but that's it.

We are playing better not because we don't have Coutinho, but because we have a better team and better players now. We would be even better with Coutinho.

This idea we can't have a player like Coutinho in our midfield has absolutely no proven fact, only ideas. When you look at what Coutinho used to do here and compare to Ox, it's clear we would be even better with Coutinho.
 

Lynch04

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#39
Not talking about you obviously, just generaly. Like we say here in Brazil, "A lie that's told a thousand times becomes true".

Coutinho has more tackles and interceptions than Ox:

Coutinho - 1.2 tackles per game and 0.7 interceptions
Ox - 1 tackle and 0.5 interceptions per game

Coutinho has more key passes, more goals and assists per game etc.

The only area Ox is better than Coutinho is at running. He is way faster than Coutinho, but that's it.

We are playing better not because we don't have Coutinho, but because we have a better team and better players now. We would be even better with Coutinho.

This idea we can't have a player like Coutinho in our midfield has absolutely no proven fact, only ideas. When you look at what Coutinho used to do here and compare to Ox, it's clear we would be even better with Coutinho.
I agree, i am not saying we cant. Coutinho is s special talent and a player i rate highly.
My point was not that we dont have room for that type a player but that we dont need to replace a like for like player.
In regards to my opinion, i was not suggesting one player makes more tackles/interceptions than the other i was merely stating that Ox is a more direct player.
 

Koon

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#40
I agree, i am not saying we cant. Coutinho is s special talent and a player i rate highly.
My point was not that we dont have room for that type a player but that we dont need to replace a like for like player.
In regards to my opinion, i was not suggesting one player makes more tackles/interceptions than the other i was merely stating that Ox is a more direct player.
I'm sorry if I sound offensive or anything like that, it's just that I basicaly can't do englando lol.

As I stated above, I think Klopp wants this replacement. Lemar, Ceballos, Bruno Fernandes etc., even Pulisic could play as CM and be a backup LW for example. It's not out of the blue that we tried to replace Coutinho with Lemar. Klopp knows we need more creativity/pass in my opinion and he wouldn't try Lemar primarily as Mané/Salah backup, it doesn't even make sense. You just lost a midfielder at his prime and you will replace him with a winger? Why? Lemar would be the one to complete the front four.

And if I take a look at Klopp's history, it always has a midfielder playmaker, always. When Klopp has "everything" he wants, the most offensive midfielder would be a playmaker. I think this will happen next season.

Also, I agree Ox is more direct, but Coutinho also was direct. I hope people didn't forget about lots of long range assists to the front three, for example. He was getting so good at that.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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#41
Not talking about you obviously, just generaly. Like we say here in Brazil, "A lie that's told a thousand times becomes true".

Coutinho has more tackles and interceptions than Ox:

Coutinho - 1.2 tackles per game and 0.7 interceptions
Ox - 1 tackle and 0.5 interceptions per game

Coutinho has more key passes, more goals and assists per game etc.

The only area Ox is better than Coutinho is at running. He is way faster than Coutinho, but that's it.

We are playing better not because we don't have Coutinho, but because we have a better team and better players now. We would be even better with Coutinho.

This idea we can't have a player like Coutinho in our midfield has absolutely no proven fact, only ideas. When you look at what Coutinho used to do here and compare to Ox, it's clear we would be even better with Coutinho.
Lucas used to have more tackles, more successful tackles and more tackles per 90 than Mascherano. He also used to have more passes and more successful passes than Alonso. Stats are useful sometimes but don't tell the whole story.

The team composition is better now and we play better (actually attacking better too) without Coutinho/or role in the side.
 

Koon

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#42
Lucas used to have more tackles, more successful tackles and more tackles per 90 than Mascherano. He also used to have more passes and more successful passes than Alonso. Stats are useful sometimes but don't tell the whole story.

The team composition is better now and we play better (actually attacking better too) without Coutinho/or role in the side.
So, stats are only useful when it helps your point of view? That's not fair, imo.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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#43
So, stats are only useful when it helps your point of view? That's not fair, imo.
Not what I said at all. You need to look at the context. And the context is our attack has improved. That isn't due to Ox being a better attacker or even a better player all round. But the way he plays does allow the team shape and structure to work more fluidly. Either that or he just runs more whatever.
 

Koon

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#44
Not what I said at all. You need to look at the context. And the context is our attack has improved. That isn't due to Ox being a better attacker or even a better player all round. But the way he plays does allow the team shape and structure to work more fluidly. Either that or he just runs more whatever.
So should we ignore VVD arrived, Lovren improving, Karius as #1, AA in a much better shape, Robertson being a starter (and a beast), Milner looking lively etc? "Our attack has improved" is only the tip of the iceberg to answer the question "why are we better now?". People think we are weaker in midfield with Coutinho, I proved with stats it's not the case. Now it's just "our attack has improved".

I don't know what I'm doing wrong here.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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#45
So should we ignore VVD arrived, Lovren improving, Karius as #1, AA in a much better shape, Robertson being a starter (and a beast), Milner looking lively etc? "Our attack has improved" is only the tip of the iceberg to answer the question "why are we better now?". People think we are weaker in midfield with Coutinho, I proved with stats it's not the case. Now it's just "our attack has improved".

I don't know what I'm doing wrong here.
What you're doing wrong is looking for a deficiency that isn't there. If Coutinho or an alternative being in the side was as important as you insist then we would be struggling. We aren't. If anything we've marginally improved.
 

vjcpatriot

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#46
Isn't Keita going to be that playmaker we are looking for or how do you picture him fitting into the Liverpool side?
 

GermanRed

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#48
No I see him as the 8 in a box to box roe but he'll be pretty much doing everything at elite levels.
Last season Keita was pretty much a box to box player but this season is different IMO. I would even say he is more attack minded than Ox and Lallana. Appears more often in opponents box than his own.
 
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#49
What you're doing wrong is looking for a deficiency that isn't there. If Coutinho or an alternative being in the side was as important as you insist then we would be struggling. We aren't. If anything we've marginally improved.
Urm, weren't you the one who said - repeatedly - that wed be doomed if we sold Coutinho without buying a replacement?

Just saying.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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#50
Urm, weren't you the one who said - repeatedly - that wed be doomed if we sold Coutinho without buying a replacement?

Just saying.
I'm the one who argued we were taking a risk going with only 3 good options for 3 starting positions for half a season after letting Coutinho and Sturridge go without bringing in additional FORWARDS. Repeatedly.

I think (and always did) that CM is fine in terms of numbers Henderson and Can deeper with Gini, Milner, Ox and Lallana for the other two positions. Question marks here and there regarding quality, and now over fitness.

Our attack is just a ridiculous situation however. An extra (decent) attacking option or two could still mean the difference between 5th and 2nd, semi-final and winners if Salah and/or Firmino picked up season ending injuries now. If we'd been able to rotate our attack since Jan we could be sitting in comfortable position in second, maybe still in the FA cup and been able to bring on someone a bit more deadly than Ings to tie Roma up with and not have the complication of two away goals.

Just saying.
 

RedBaron

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#51
Being a bit of a “Betista” I saw quite a few games for his old team. I remember him being quick on the ball, nice tricks and could pass...... but a long way from the finished article. Wasn’t surprised when he went to RM, similar to Munich they snap up anyone with potential and put a massive sell on fee. Thing is..... he hasn’t played for them very often.
It’s all ok training with top players but just how much can you improve when you don’t play?
No doubt he could be great, but it seems a lot of people think he could be another bargain buy but he could also turn out to be an Aquilani....
 

Maggot_Birdy

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#52
No point in buying him
1) We have plenty of CMs: Milner, Gini, Ox, Lallana, Can (if he stays), and of course..... Keita!! Would Ceballos start ahead of any of those? Probably not.
Even if Can leaves, there is glaring hole in the DM position and not CM position.
2) Klopp wants a playmaker to play high up the pitch and predominantly on the LEFT(!) where coutinho was starting from. Can Ceballos play there? Not at all

Then, let's move on to more useful targets..

PS: Since when should clubs yield to RM's infuriating demands for their players, let alone theirs non-starters.?
They are buying cheap and selling ridiculously high. I don't know why every club succumbs to that. Does it have to do with the Queen's glory??
 

Dimitriy

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#53
Last season Keita was pretty much a box to box player but this season is different IMO. I would even say he is more attack minded than Ox and Lallana. Appears more often in opponents box than his own.
I noticed that against Marseille, he practicaly played false nine of sort..I thought it was because of the negative result...it's not his place...I think he will play as 6 and maybe 8. He is a quick thinking guy :well done:...Sorry, if its a wrong thread
 

Dimitriy

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#54
I'm the one who argued we were taking a risk going with only 3 good options for 3 starting positions for half a season after letting Coutinho and Sturridge go without bringing in additional FORWARDS. Repeatedly.

I think (and always did) that CM is fine in terms of numbers Henderson and Can deeper with Gini, Milner, Ox and Lallana for the other two positions. Question marks here and there regarding quality, and now over fitness.

Our attack is just a ridiculous situation however. An extra (decent) attacking option or two could still mean the difference between 5th and 2nd, semi-final and winners if Salah and/or Firmino picked up season ending injuries now. If we'd been able to rotate our attack since Jan we could be sitting in comfortable position in second, maybe still in the FA cup and been able to bring on someone a bit more deadly than Ings to tie Roma up with and not have the complication of two away goals.

Just saying.
Just by reading the written...it makes sence to add the proposed corrections...
I thought that Coutnho leaving, would made us weaker in UCL, due to his creative and lucid style. But we didn't need him against City, nore Rome...by adopting different game strategy (or maybe the strategy was preordained-i.e. result oriented)...and we devastated them. Our trio is on fire....The question is...Can we atract players, that you are describing, knowing what their role would be. Yes, we had Sturridge...Ideal ! but he can't/couldn't link a couple of games in a row. Just by having him, as we needed and expected, it would have been much different for the club...true. But there aren't much of his mould to be broght in January. Also, (lazy to google it), I think the 4 clubs from England are directly suited for the group stages...Just trying to think like a manager and a club, with lots of talent in it
 

Esoteric

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#55
Blah blah blah.... Coutinho was our best player when he was here, that undeniable. Blah blah blah
Is it really undeniable? 2016-2017 I'd argue Sadio Mane was our best player and I'd also argue that Bobby Firmino stood ahead of Coutinho as best player.