Dejan Lovren (CB) to AC Milan, Roma

[Seamus]

It's exactly that sort of thing I'm worried about. Moving specialist players out of position and replacing them with square pegs.

Putting Fabinho in CB wouldn’t really be doing that though. Lallana, I’ll admit does very much feel like that but Klopp has Wijnaldum and Henderson to fill that position if needs be. And it’s not like it would become the norm, anyway.

 

[Sweeting]

Selling Lovren would save the club £5m a year in wages and add £20m in a transfer fee.

Not saying I neccessarily agree with selling him but there is a business sense to offloading your overpaid, underperforming 4th choice CB to pay for that nice shiny training ground.

 

[Danny_]

We should not part with him for anything less than 35m. That's what he is worth in today's crazy market. We won't get a better replacement for that money

 

[jgw_geneseo]

Against Wolves? Or was that right back?

I believe we had a 'back five', or three at the back, with Hoever being the right side of the three, and comacho pushed up high. At least, that's how I remember it.

 

[Arminius]

We should not part with him for anything less than 35m. That's what he is worth in today's crazy market. We won't get a better replacement for that money

30 year old, with a bizarre injury record, going to a non-PL club. No way he is worth that. The only 30+ defender ever to be sold for that much is Bonucci, and he was worth less than that the next year when they sold him back. The only other 30+ defender anywhere close was Hummels to Dortmund. Those are all fairly recent. It may be that we cannot replace him with comparable quality for what he is worth, but 20M is about as much we could expect.

 

[redfanman]

I believe we had a 'back five', or three at the back, with Hoever being the right side of the three, and comacho pushed up high. At least, that's how I remember it.

I thought it was a four, with Milner being sucked deeper because he was protecting Hoever even though he didn't need it and Camacho.

 

[Dutch]

When Lovren leaves we will have 5 experienced defenders in our squad, one still a kid and a couple injury prone. We have a pretty brutal schedule between now and January.
You can talk all day about the likes of Hoever and van den Berg, or playing others out of position to fill in, but I think it's a fucking ludicrous situation that will cost us at some point over the next 4/5 months.
We've seen how quickly we can become down to the bones several times over the past few seasons and yet we've allowed 3 squad players to leave this summer without replacing any of them. It's fucking nuts however you dress it up.

Absolutely agree with you, there is no need to sell him whatsoever. We let Mig go and what happened next........

 

[Mascot88]

It's exactly that sort of thing I'm worried about. Moving specialist players out of position and replacing them with square pegs.

I think we need to talk about this ‘square pegs’ thing. It’s become a bit of a truism that needs challenging

Footballers are not fixed, unchangable things. And football positions are not set in stone, with codified, defined aspects to them. We’re actually talking about putting plasticine pegs in variable shaped holes.

If Klopp is looking at Lallana in the six role, it’s not because he is making the best of a shit situation. It’s because because he sees something in him that he thinks would be an attribute in that position.

I’d say that might be Lallana’s ability to receive the ball, turn quickly and get on the front foot. In that respect, he is probably better than Fabinho. Klopp might be eyeing him up to do that in games where we’ll be needing less of the defensive shield that Fabinho gives.

A defence of

Lallana
Robertson Fabinho Gomez Trent
Alisson
​

Would be really interesting to try against the bottom teams, and gets a rest for Van Dijk.

So, I have no problem selling Lovren. In all honesty it was going to be tough to convince him to hang around as fourth choice. He is too good for that, and obviously wants to play. The only issue I have is the fee, although that might be reflective of his awful attendance record.

I don’t know what this club/manager has to do to help people understand the way we work know. We expect Klopp to sit down Lovren, look him in the eye and say You’re not going, you’re under contract, so shut the fuck up and get back on the training pitch.

It doesn’t work like that. If a player wants out, Klopp will let them go. He won’t risk a discontented player in the dressing room. Especially not in a position we are reasonably well stocked.

 

[Mascot88]

Absolutely agree with you, there is no need to sell him whatsoever. We let Mig go and what happened next........

Err. We got a much better reserve keeper?

And thank fuck, because six weeks of Adrian feels a lot more comfortable than six weeks of Mignolet.

 

[Dutch]

There is absolutely no evidence that Adrian can cope with the pressure of playing at top level and the way he reacted with the first goal he conceded does not make me confident that he can. Perhaps we can say after the six weeks "we are better of" but for now I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Mascot88]

There is absolutely no evidence that Adrian can cope with the pressure of playing at top level and the way he reacted with the first goal he conceded does not make me confident that he can. Perhaps we can say after the six weeks "we are better of" but for now I'm not holding my breath.

You’d rather have six weeks of Mignolet than Adrian? On the basis that Adrian looked pissed off to concede?

 

[Dutch]

For now? Yes. Mig had very good spells on the level Liverpool plays on, so far we don't know Adrian can have them too.

 

[jaffod]

I don’t know what this club/manager has to do to help people understand the way we work know. We expect Klopp to sit down Lovren, look him in the eye and say You’re not going, you’re under contract, so shut the fuck up and get back on the training pitch.

It doesn’t work like that. If a player wants out, Klopp will let them go. He won’t risk a discontented player in the dressing room. Especially not in a position we are reasonably well stocked.

The issue here is timing. JK had all summer to sit down with Lovren and tell him he'd be 4th choice with maybe limited game-time if everyone stays fit. If Lovren doesn't like it he can find a new club and we get ample time to find a replacement. It was being reported well over a month ago that Lovren was open to a move so it's not like it's all come straight out of the blue, and given Lovren's high opinion of himself it's not that difficult to predict how things would pan out.
The whole thing was foreseeable but now we're 1 game into the season and in a position where an injury or suspension will see us down to the bones and not for the first time.

 

[norwegian wood]

I think we need to talk about this ‘square pegs’ thing. It’s become a bit of a truism that needs challenging

Footballers are not fixed, unchangable things. And football positions are not set in stone, with codified, defined aspects to them. We’re actually talking about putting plasticine pegs in variable shaped holes.

If Klopp is looking at Lallana in the six role, it’s not because he is making the best of a shit situation. It’s because because he sees something in him that he thinks would be an attribute in that position.

I’d say that might be Lallana’s ability to receive the ball, turn quickly and get on the front foot. In that respect, he is probably better than Fabinho. Klopp might be eyeing him up to do that in games where we’ll be needing less of the defensive shield that Fabinho gives.

A defence of

Lallana
Robertson Fabinho Gomez Trent
Alisson
​

Would be really interesting to try against the bottom teams, and gets a rest for Van Dijk.

So, I have no problem selling Lovren. In all honesty it was going to be tough to convince him to hang around as fourth choice. He is too good for that, and obviously wants to play. The only issue I have is the fee, although that might be reflective of his awful attendance record.

I don’t know what this club/manager has to do to help people understand the way we work know. We expect Klopp to sit down Lovren, look him in the eye and say You’re not going, you’re under contract, so shut the fuck up and get back on the training pitch.

It doesn’t work like that. If a player wants out, Klopp will let them go. He won’t risk a discontented player in the dressing room. Especially not in a position we are reasonably well stocked.

About the first bit, on 'best position': fully agree. In many cases, a players best position is depending on several things. Teammates, playing style, opponent.

As an extension of this, I wouldn't be surprised to see us replace Lovren with a midfielder rather than a defender. Looking at the demands of the central defenders in our team (build attacks, defend 1v1 in big spaces), there's an argument for saying four senior players is too much. Could be difficult to find a defender who fits the description, is good enough and accepts not being first choice. Maybe the best solution is to view Fabinho as the 4th option, and then look to add another versatile midfielder. Especially since this could be the last season for both Milner and Lallana. Not to go all 'who would I buy', but this could be a way to make room for someone like Bruno Fernandes. Just as an example.

 

[Sweeting]

For now? Yes. Mig had very good spells on the level Liverpool plays on, so far we don't know Adrian can have them too.

It is not a perfect measure by any means but every season at Liverpool Mignolet conceded more than he was expected to by xG. Adrian concedes the xG almost exactly. Alisson outperforms xG significantly.

By that metric it would rate Mignolet as a below average goalkeeper, he concedes more often than he "should" against the average. Low quality chances are still a problem for him - lets face it we knew this, it was a frustration of us before Alisson the opposition only needed one chance to score.

Adrian is almost exactly average. His last two seasons as a starter he was expected to concede 120 goals and he conceded 119. He makes saves he should and he doesn't save shots he shouldn't.

On that imperfect analysis basis Adrian is a better goalkeeper than Mignolet and we can see that he is a better 'fit' stylistically. Remains to be seen if he will be a good player for us but on paper losing Mignolet and signing Adrian will be an upgrade.

 

[Dutch]

There is a difference between being a goalkeeper at West Ham/Betis or Liverpool, playing in a team like LFC, the top in Europe, playing in finals brings extra pressure. Mig had spells where he showed us that he could handle that pressure, so far Adrian understandable has not, perhaps he surprises us and will deliver flawless performances over the next few weeks. I hope so but I'm not counting on it.

 

[Billy Biskix]

I am generally relaxed about transfer decisions under JK because we have so rarely made poor ones but I am nervous about this. Without wishing to sound too much like our departed friend, Redforever, reducing your defensive options to 5 players for 4 positions seems like madness.

At the start of the window we were told he could leave but only if we got £25 million. Now it seems he can go for less than that and at a time when he can't be replaced. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Hoever will be an excellent player but he is 17 and, in reality, it means we will see a lot of Fabinho at CB, Milner at LB and anyone who is fit and fancies the occasional game at RB. We are really starting to push our luck.

 

[jgw_geneseo]

I thought it was a four, with Milner being sucked deeper because he was protecting Hoever even though he didn't need it and Camacho.

Just had a peak at the lineup for that game. Most definitely not a back three I could pick out now . Shows the power of memory

 

[redfanman]

There is a difference between being a goalkeeper at West Ham/Betis or Liverpool, playing in a team like LFC, the top in Europe, playing in finals brings extra pressure. Mig had spells where he showed us that he could handle that pressure, so far Adrian understandable has not, perhaps he surprises us and will deliver flawless performances over the next few weeks. I hope so but I'm not counting on it.

This sounds like a bit of revisionism. As much as i would be willing to support Mig from fan criticism, I dont think of him as someone delivering flawless performances at will or not having concerns over his pressure handling. I would rather take the positives until proven wrong on Adrian because i cant see him being worse than Migs and he has the opportunity to show he is better, with a defence probably more solid than any he has played with before.

 

[Kopstar]

It is not a perfect measure by any means but every season at Liverpool Mignolet conceded more than he was expected to by xG. Adrian concedes the xG almost exactly. Alisson outperforms xG significantly.

By that metric it would rate Mignolet as a below average goalkeeper, he concedes more often than he "should" against the average. Low quality chances are still a problem for him - lets face it we knew this, it was a frustration of us before Alisson the opposition only needed one chance to score.

Adrian is almost exactly average. His last two seasons as a starter he was expected to concede 120 goals and he conceded 119. He makes saves he should and he doesn't save shots he shouldn't.

On that imperfect analysis basis Adrian is a better goalkeeper than Mignolet and we can see that he is a better 'fit' stylistically. Remains to be seen if he will be a good player for us but on paper losing Mignolet and signing Adrian will be an upgrade.

Out of interest, how does Karius compare?

 

[Kopstar]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1161404845405999104

Mo looking sad and bereft already...he's taking this hard.

 

[Sweeting]

Out of interest, how does Karius compare?

I couldn't find Karius's full xG data but in March of 17/18 he had conceded 8 goals with an xG of 7.04, making him below average but with a very small sample size.

Found his full season stats for that year. 14 conceded with xGA of 13.47.

 

[Gilb4444]

if Gomez/matip play against city away from home we win the league!

 

[RobLFC]

Err. We got a much better reserve keeper?

And thank fuck, because six weeks of Adrian feels a lot more comfortable than six weeks of Mignolet.

This is my (and by the look of it a few others) problem - It's not that getting rid of Lovren is an issue, in the same way that getting rid of Mignolet was an issue. Rather it's that we've upgraded on Migs but will not even have replaced Lovren with anyone.

I have been really impressed with Hoever at RB and for me I'd say that he should be Trent's back up if needed against most of the bottom half PL teams, with Gomez covering against the better teams. But, Hoever just looks too slight to be a CB at the moment. In the same way BT Sport were commenting on how Pulisic and Mount were brushed off the ball too easily at times last night, I feel the likes of Ashley Barnes/Troy Deeney and co would pin him and roll in behind far too easily until he's bulked up a bit, which will come naturally over the next couple of years.

I've never seen VdB play so can't comment as to how good he is/could be, but I'm pretty certain I wouldn't want an untried 17 year old lining up against any of the top half PL teams and even most of the bottom ones.

While I agree that Fabinho would likely make a good CB against teams where we're expected to have the majority of the ball, you can't decide when injuries are going to strike. Most teams aren't going to have to rely on their 4th choice CB for much if at all of the season, but we've seen over the last 2-3 years that unfortunately for whatever reason Matip and Gomez have missed large chunks. Would we be happier with Fabinho at CB or at DM against City/United/Spurs, etc.?

I'm all for giving young players a chance and would much rather have a young player next in line than some 30 year old journeyman pro picking up their obscene wages for sitting on the bench/playing with the U23's while being 'cover', which is what the club have generally had over the last 15 years. But I'd like that young player to be slightly further along their development than two 17 year olds! Given that with City now you can't do a Fergie and time your run for the title after Christmas and instead need to win practically every week, It just doesn't half make you worried that our small squad means one or two injuries could completely derail our league campaign, and shrinking it further is only going to compound that worry.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

We played all four of our remaining senior CB options last night (Gomez RB, first choice RB cover so will happen, and Fabinho in DM as first choice there) if Lovren goes. 120 minutes plus penalties on a Wednesday night. Ideally we would be resting 1 or both of our CBs for the weekend after that but we simply don't have the option. This is right at the start of the season luckily so should be able to cope. But a clear show of how shallow a level we are stripping the squad back to. Even with CMs able to supplement our defenders, we had Ox covering up top due to lack of trusted options there and Keita injured so only had one senior CM in reserve didn't we?

 

[redfanman]

We played all four of our remaining senior CB options last night (Gomez RB, first choice RB cover so will happen, and Fabinho in DM as first choice there) if Lovren goes. 120 minutes plus penalties on a Wednesday night. Ideally we would be resting 1 or both of our CBs for the weekend after that but we simply don't have the option. This is right at the start of the season luckily so should be able to cope. But a clear show of how shallow a level we are stripping the squad back to. Even with CMs able to supplement our defenders, we had Ox covering up top due to lack of trusted options there and Keita injured so only had one senior CM in reserve didn't we?

I don't think Ox was used due to a lack of options. Klopp may simply have wished to experiment or get him match time.

 

[Neukolln]

I had Sky on in the background at the office so I was sort of casually listening, but I'm pretty sure I heard them say that LFC was "working on a loan with option to buy" deal for Lovren but didn't catch the club.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

I don't think Ox was used due to a lack of options. Klopp may simply have wished to experiment or get him match time.

You missed the word trusted. For all the talk of Brewster he currently appears to be behind Origi in the pecking order and Shaqiri hasn't been used there. So for LF the trusted options appear to be Mane (who was needed central as Firmino was getting a rest... or was supposed to) or Origi who was seemingly getting rested after playing the last game. Ox seems to be third on the list for that position as things stand going off preseason and what games we've played so far.

 

[CymruRed]

I had Sky on in the background at the office so I was sort of casually listening, but I'm pretty sure I heard them say that LFC was "working on a loan with option to buy" deal for Lovren but didn't catch the club.

Not a good option for us tbh,these try before buying with Italian clubs (if it's either Roma or AC Milan) never work in our favour,he'll probably end up back here next summer after they get there use out of him,i'd rather sell him while he's fit and get £15-20mill in the bank and his £5mill wages off the books now.If Edwards can't get £25mill+ for him after Maguire was sold for £85mill then i feel his value is only going to start depreciating from now on.

I'm not sure about FFP rules and how it works 100%,if the book balancing works over a 3 year cycle then next season (i'm assuming) is the start of a new cycle (if thats how it does work??),we'll be back to 0 and be able to splash the cash without having to worry for another 2 years,we've surely banked the Solanke and Ings sales,plus god knows how much we've made from loan fee's from last year and this season,plus Sturridge/Moreno wages off the books over this season.By time next summer comes around,with more player sales and trophy win earnings,i'd imagine we'd have a pretty decent pot of cash for transfers to go crazy with next year.

 

[liver1]

If Lovren is going then it means Klopp has faith in Hoever. He looked very good in preseason.