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Division and Polarity

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts.
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Sorry I'll try to delude myself more so that everything seems hunky dory.
The key is keeping a balanced view. While there are plenty of things we are entitled to be unhappy about, there are also some good things happening to our club lately. God knows I'm having big doubts about fsg's ultimate motives, but your criticism lacks balance, and as such, will be challenged in here, rightly so.
 

OhYaBeauty

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Do we have a new scouting team? Or just a couple of additions to the scouting team? It's hardly a revamped scouting system.
Well to seriously answer your question, yes, we do have a pretty seriously revamped scouting system.
 

callanlfc

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You dont need to do that. Not denying we have problems and have wrongs to put right. What more can you expect from a new manager with such a depleted squad. No need to rehash all the reasons for it, you and I both know them.
Tell you what though I would rather be here than in the bottom 3 headed for relegation and hours from administration with Roy in charge. Now that would be a reason to complain. Be a supporter, the clue is in the name.
We actually had more points at this stage of the season with Roy in charge and we are closer to relegation now than what we were then and we had much less of a depleted squad then despite the fact that we weren't far from administration. I support the club but that doesn't mean I can't look at how it needs improving and for me there's a lot about the club that needs improving and yet little seems to be getting done about it especially the having someone with football experience on the board part.
 

callanlfc

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Well to seriously answer your question, yes, we do have a pretty seriously revamped scouting system.
That's good, I'm glad we do! Any links on how it's been revamped? I'm only aware of us hiring a couple of scouts from City.
 

Drian

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I'll post my Swansea post match comment here:

I'm a rare poster on this forum but always follow it because there are really good posters. I respect these guys and you are one of them. I really rate Hope, Nikola, Miklo, I Still miss Fowler, Mascot, Dane, Eddie, Matt and Zoky. But in this hard times I really feel than some of you guys lost paitence,

We are in a big transiaton. New players, new formation, new ideas with a new and really young coach. Almost everything is brand new but to be honest, I love it!

I really want the Team to win all of the matches and allways disappointed with a loss or a draw. But I think I see the big picture. Maybe it will take a long time but I believe in Rodgers and his ideas.

The team can play beautifull football at times and becomes more and more stronger! This year will be painfull. maybe we won't win anything, won't get in top four... big deal. I accepted it. I'm not happy about it but this is the way.

We need new faces and the owners know this. We will get some players in january but the next summer is much more important.

I believe in Rodgers and I believe in most of the players, too! The young guys like Sterling, Suso and Wisdom are fantastic! And there is Lucas, Allen, Kelly, Henderson and Shelvey who are getting better game by game. They have their bad days but it's part of their development. And our defence can be one of the best in the leauge with Agger, Skrtel and Johnno. Enrique is a tricky one but there is Kelly and Wisdom comig through so there will be no problem. And there is the only and one: Suarez. This guy is a real beast and loves Liverpool and Rodgers. Our Captain sometimes fades but he is a real leader and very important for the whole team.

I think we are not far from the big guns. Rodgers needs time, give him. The owners will give him money, he is their choice and they believe in him. We should, too!

I'm really upset under these kind of matches and nobody wants more a win than a Liverpool fan! But after the match I release the steam and calm down. This is very important these days. I don't want Liverpool be like Chelsea with a new manager for every Christmas from Santa Abra!

These are hard times. But we want to get to the top of the mountain and stay there for a lot of years! And we are half way and the journey with Rodgers only has started just now. Lay back and watch!

Just a thought mate :)

P.S.: Zoky mate I really respect your knowledge of football! You know the players, the system and this beautifull game really well :) So hats off!

YNWA
 

callanlfc

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The key is keeping a balanced view. While there are plenty of things we are entitled to be unhappy about, there are also some good things happening to our club lately. God knows I'm having big doubts about fsg's ultimate motives, but your criticism lacks balance, and as such, will be challenged in here, rightly so.
It's hard to have balance when there doesn't seem to be anything positive to balance out the negatives with in my opinion. I'm fine with my criticisms being challenged but I'm curious to hear what these positive things are in your opinion?
 

T.C.B

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We actually had more points at this stage of the season with Roy in charge and we are closer to relegation now than what we were then and we had much less of a depleted squad then despite the fact that we weren't far from administration. I support the club but that doesn't mean I can't look at how it needs improving and for me there's a lot about the club that needs improving and yet little seems to be getting done about it especially the having someone with football experience on the board part.
You are totally intitled to have concerns mate. Many of them are justified. We all want whats best for the club. I feel your frustration and Im sure most of us do. Not having a go at you but you need to strike the balance between complaning and supporting. Your posts read like a constant rant against everything. Thrust me Ive been there.
Only a fool would say the situation at the club is rosy, its far from it. Its way too early to push the panic button though. Brendan needs time. Results havent gone our way for sure. We need new blood on the paying staff after the summer cull.
We dont seen to have the resources to put last summers mistakes in one foul swoop, thats a job for more than one window. Lets see how the Jan window goes before we jump on it. You had a go at the scouting system but you dont know that they havent identified a couple of targets for the new year.
We all feel like a rant but patience is key more than ever now. Chin up kid.
 

T.C.B

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It's hard to have balance when there doesn't seem to be anything positive to balance out the negatives with in my opinion. I'm fine with my criticisms being challenged but I'm curious to hear what these positive things are in your opinion?
Positives.
The young players, Sterling, Wisdom, Suso, Shelvey. 4 any team would want. More on the way including Robinson and Flanaghan. Yesil is going to be a top striker also.

Despite what you think two top people were added to the scouting team. Its early in play for them but if they each uncovered one player a year that would be a huge improvement.

Increasd sponsorship and new kit deals. Hopefully it will lead to more spending on the squad.

The appointment of a young ambitious manager. Despite kenny being sacked Im a Brendan fan. He is not without fault but has a clear idea how he wants to set up the team and play. At times this season we have played some lovely stuff and with a couple of better players results will improve.

The Owners. A lot done, more to do. Mistakes made but would you rather H and G. You only have to look at Portsmouth, Blackburn and Leeds to see what dodgy owners can do to a club. Not to mention rangers.

The stadium. A decision made to redevelop. We stay at our spiritual home, I love it. No doubt we want to see actual work happen. Hopfully that will be this year or in the summer maybe.
 

Hope in your heart

Loyalty and patience, two undervalued concepts.
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It's hard to have balance when there doesn't seem to be anything positive to balance out the negatives with in my opinion. I'm fine with my criticisms being challenged but I'm curious to hear what these positive things are in your opinion?
Ok, I'll try, especially as I have been more vocal recently about things going wrong, so that will be a good mental exercise for me... :)

1. First things first, we are LFC, in my opinion the best club in the world, even if things don't look great at the moment. That's already a big plus. As such, we always will hold a special appeal, both for players or for potential new supporters.

2. Anfield is still a special place, capable of generating a fantastic atmosphere, especially for special moments like European nights or top drawer games. That good old stadium will not only never run away from us, but it has been confirmed by fsg that we are staying put there, and it will be revamped. That's a big, big plus for me. I was always a bit concerned about a move to a potentially atmosphere-devoid new bowl. The projects which were shown for new stadia never fully convinced me. So, going into the direction of expanding and revamping Anfield is great news in my book.

3. Since fsg, our spending on new players again matches what the club earns. Compare this to the abysmal period with g+h. We could be in a far worse state presently if those idiots had been allowed to stay put.

4. While I was, and still am incensed about Kenny's sacking, I'm quietly confident that BR can come good for us if given the time and support to find his feet, and more importantly, to fine-tune the players on his playing philosophy.

5. The fact he has a clear playing philosophy is what makes me positive for the future with him at the helm. He'll make mistakes, but having that clear compass about where he wants to go, he'll be able to correct them. At 39, he's a very young gaffer, while having already had excellent experiences as a coach (with Mourinho as a teacher), and as gaffer, including a bitter failure at Reading, but also some truly incredible success with Swansea, who own him a big deal for their late meteoric rise. Most importantly, he has a big improvement potential. He's not the finished article, that's for sure.

6. Thanks to Rafa's legacy, we have one of the best academies in the world right now (Guardiola acknowledged this recently), with plenty of exciting players coming through. The fact that we have someone at the helm who is willing to play them is very encouraging (although Kenny would have done the exact same thing). This makes us a potential force for the future, with plenty of potentially great players learning their trade at top level right now, and while this season is a transitional one for us, we could reap the rewards for playing them now in coming seasons. The fact that Segura left is disappointing, but we still have Borrell overseeing the youth formation, and I for one feel very at ease as long as he's around. He's a genuine class act.

7. So, you see, there are some positives. This doesn't take away anything from the criticism I have voiced earlier, and which is targeted at fsg before anyone else, but it's not only doom and gloom. I'm fairly convinced that as long as fsg stop their ridiculous recent spell of mismanaging and knee-jerking, we will soon have hit the bottom, and go onwards and upwards, possibly going from strength to strength.
 

No Men in the Box Redux

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1. To be honest we aren't even debt free.
True. But are you going to hold FSG to that? The rest of your post I'm not going to bother with because most of it is just a matter of your qualitative bias towards those things. For instance, you claim that "Every club has concern for its academy" and while that may be true by and large, you seem to be missing the point that we currently have one of the best run if not the best academy in the UK and that the focus on maintaining that and improving on that even more is a key part of FSG's "direction" which you claim to be nonexistent. Like I said though, it's a matter of your perspective towards things and if your expectations are just that much higher than that of everyone else then that's fine. You're entitled to your own bias. However, the point about what FSG has done in terms of removing the club's debt can be demonstrated completely with quantitative data and there isn't as much room to quibble with there so I'm going to shamelessly pull this off of The Swiss Ramble (great blog) to make the point that it is incredibly unreasonable to not give credit to FSG on this point as FSG has done a LOT to reduce the debt here with money out of their own pockets unlike what you can see happening in many other top clubs, United being one of the best examples:

It’s worth pausing to reflect on how different this is from the unpopular former owners, who saddled Liverpool with a mountain of debt when they bought the club in March 2007, then took them to the brink of administration. The desperate situation was crisply summarised by UEFA’s William Gaillard: “The club has been rescued, thank God, but it was a close call. They suddenly found themselves being owned by two failed banks that had been taken over by governments.”

Liverpool’s debt had reached shocking levels under the previous unwanted regime. Although there was “only” £123 million net debt in the football club, the full picture was revealed in the holding company where borrowings had grown to around £400 million. The good news is that this debt was largely eliminated after the change in ownership, though there is still £65m net debt, comprising £38 million bank loans and £30 million owed to UKSV Holdings less £3 million cash.



This is enormously significant to the club’s finances, as the prohibitively expensive annual interest payments of £18 million (£40 million including the holding company) have been drastically reduced to just £3 million, which Ayre said meant that Liverpool are “in a much stronger position to utilise our revenues more effectively on the team.”

However difficult this season is proving, there is no doubt that it is preferable to the depths of despair suffered under the previous “gang of four”: Hicks and Gillett, a couple of charmless chancers; Christian Purslow, a smug, superficial excuse of a chief executive, who delivered little beyond infamously nominating himself as “the Fernando Torres of finance”; and poor Roy Hodgson, an experienced manager who was the archetypal square peg in a round hole (though apparently good enough to lead his country).

The arrival of Fenway Sports Group (FSG) has dramatically improved the club’s finances, as noted by Dalglish, “Off the pitch, especially, the club is a lot stronger than it was… see how much money we are getting through sponsorship and kit deals.” This comment was widely ridiculed, but he does have a point: the use of the money may be open to question, but at least it’s now available.
 

lfc.eddie

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Sorry mate, don't think he is wrong though, we still have debt. Those that kept saying all our debt are wiped out is just not true mate. Have to accept that we still have 65mil that needs to be serviced.
 

No Men in the Box Redux

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Sorry mate, don't think he is wrong though, we still have debt. Those that kept saying all our debt are wiped out is just not true mate. Have to accept that we still have 65mil that needs to be serviced.
The point doesn't lie in the precision or imprecision of the statements claiming that all our debt has been wiped out though. The point lies in the fact that FSG reduced the debt from £400 million to £65 million and the annual interest payments of £18 million/£40 million total including debt of the holding company reduced to just £3 million. So the point isn't in the exact precision of the claims "There is still £65 million of debt" versus "There is no debt at all anymore", it is in the fact that FSG has committed themselves to reducing the club's debt in this way while many other top clubs in the world have failed to do so — a good amount actually have their debts climbing as every year goes on. I don't disagree with you though that there is still £65 million of debt that still needs to be addressed, I'm just saying give FSG credit where it is due because plenty of other clubs' debts are mounting unlike ours.
 

callanlfc

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The point doesn't lie in the precision or imprecision of the statements claiming that all our debt has been wiped out though. The point lies in the fact that FSG reduced the debt from £400 million to £65 million and the annual interest payments of £18 million/£40 million total including debt of the holding company reduced to just £3 million. So the point isn't in the exact precision of the claims "There is still £65 million of debt" versus "There is no debt at all anymore", it is in the fact that FSG has committed themselves to reducing the club's debt in this way while many other top clubs in the world have failed to do so — a good amount actually have their debts climbing as every year goes on. I don't disagree with you though that there is still £65 million of debt that still needs to be addressed, I'm just saying give FSG credit where it is due because plenty of other clubs' debts are mounting unlike ours.
Hasn't the debt already gone up from about £35million since they first took over? It was stated there was a small operating debt on the club in the region of £35million if my memory serves me correctly. Now it's above £60million.
 

lfc.eddie

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Well they bought the club by buying out the debt, we all know that. I think it is clear that it depends on how you want to see it. To me, it is not like they were like those two blue teams where their owners actually absorb all their debt. Like I said before, they are not a GREAT owner, they are alright, not that great and not that bad either. Again I repeat - I am a demanding prick who believes we deserves more than just alright.
 

No Men in the Box Redux

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Well they bought the club by buying out the debt, we all know that. I think it is clear that it depends on how you want to see it. To me, it is not like they were like those two blue teams where their owners actually absorb all their debt. Like I said before, they are not a GREAT owner, they are alright, not that great and not that bad either. Again I repeat - I am a demanding prick who believes we deserves more than just alright.
And your definition of better than just alright is an owner who is willing to absorb any and all of the club's debt? Pretty unrealistic to ask for something like that if you ask me. I won't hold my breath for it.I do know what you mean about being a demanding prick who believes we deserve more than just alright. We're all a bit like that here.
 

No Men in the Box Redux

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Hasn't the debt already gone up from about £35million since they first took over? It was stated there was a small operating debt on the club in the region of £35million if my memory serves me correctly. Now it's above £60million.
I don't believe that is true. Unless you are referencing fiscal year of 2012 numbers specifically which I have not seen. So far though, I haven't seen anything that has shown that FSG has increased our debts but if you do find actual evidence then I'm more than happy to believe it.
 

callanlfc

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I don't believe that is true. Unless you are referencing fiscal year of 2012 numbers specifically which I have not seen. So far though, I haven't seen anything that has shown that FSG has increased our debts but if you do find actual evidence then I'm more than happy to believe it.
This is the best I could find for now:Liverpool's chairman, Martin Broughton, and former managing director Christian Purslow did not ask John W Henry, the new owner, for written guarantees not to load his costs of taking over Liverpool on to the club, it has emerged. Broughton and Purslow, a spokesman said, took the view that such a commitment would not be strictly legally enforceable, but were assured by Henry, and his 16 partners in New England Sports Ventures, that they would not burden the club with their "acquisition costs".In a detailed email Henry sent to the Guardian answering questions about the takeover, he confirmed that approach, saying he has paid off the £200m "acquisition debt" loaded on to Liverpool by previous owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett. The only debt which Liverpool now owe, Henry said, is £37m to Royal Bank of Scotland for development work on the proposed new stadium, which NESV is now reviewing. "The simplest thing to say is that we removed all debt but the stadium debt," Henry wrote. "LFC is not servicing debt other than stadium debt."He explained that NESV does not intend to extract money from Liverpool, as Hicks and Gillett did, to service its own costs of buying the club, and said Broughton and Purslow never asked for such a commitment in writing.The spokesman for Broughton and Purslow, who voted to sell the club to NESV based largely on Henry's assurance that no "acquisition debt" would be loaded on the club, said they had not asked for written guarantees because such future commitments are not strictly legally enforceable. Hicks and Gillett said in their own official offer document when buying the club in February 2007 that the payment of interest on their £200m borrowings "will not depend to any significant extent on the business of Liverpool". But subsequently they did pay the multi-million pound interest costs out of the club's earnings. RBS confirmed that the £200m Hicks and Gillett "acquisition debt" has now been repaid, leaving the £37m stadium debt.Henry, in Liverpool to meet the manager Roy Hodgson, his players, staff and officials, declined in his email to explain how NESV raised the £218m cash required to buy Liverpool, and whether any of it was borrowed. "I have certain obligations to my partners regarding confidentiality of a private company and in not disclosing our financials publicly," he said. "LFC discloses its financials annually, so monies going in and going out are disclosed. But I'm not going to disclose NESV financials or financing information."http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/nov/02/john-henry-liverpool-takover
 

TFC

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This is the best I could find for now:Liverpool's chairman, Martin Broughton, and former managing director Christian Purslow did not ask John W Henry, the new owner, for written guarantees not to load his costs of taking over Liverpool on to the club, it has emerged. Broughton and Purslow, a spokesman said, took the view that such a commitment would not be strictly legally enforceable, but were assured by Henry, and his 16 partners in New England Sports Ventures, that they would not burden the club with their "acquisition costs".In a detailed email Henry sent to the Guardian answering questions about the takeover, he confirmed that approach, saying he has paid off the £200m "acquisition debt" loaded on to Liverpool by previous owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett. The only debt which Liverpool now owe, Henry said, is £37m to Royal Bank of Scotland for development work on the proposed new stadium, which NESV is now reviewing. "The simplest thing to say is that we removed all debt but the stadium debt," Henry wrote. "LFC is not servicing debt other than stadium debt."He explained that NESV does not intend to extract money from Liverpool, as Hicks and Gillett did, to service its own costs of buying the club, and said Broughton and Purslow never asked for such a commitment in writing.The spokesman for Broughton and Purslow, who voted to sell the club to NESV based largely on Henry's assurance that no "acquisition debt" would be loaded on the club, said they had not asked for written guarantees because such future commitments are not strictly legally enforceable. Hicks and Gillett said in their own official offer document when buying the club in February 2007 that the payment of interest on their £200m borrowings "will not depend to any significant extent on the business of Liverpool". But subsequently they did pay the multi-million pound interest costs out of the club's earnings. RBS confirmed that the £200m Hicks and Gillett "acquisition debt" has now been repaid, leaving the £37m stadium debt.Henry, in Liverpool to meet the manager Roy Hodgson, his players, staff and officials, declined in his email to explain how NESV raised the £218m cash required to buy Liverpool, and whether any of it was borrowed. "I have certain obligations to my partners regarding confidentiality of a private company and in not disclosing our financials publicly," he said. "LFC discloses its financials annually, so monies going in and going out are disclosed. But I'm not going to disclose NESV financials or financing information."http://www.guardian....verpool-takover
I'm pretty sure we paid that off. The articles outdated 2010.
 

lfc.eddie

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And your definition of better than just alright is an owner who is just willing to absorb any and all of the club's debt? Pretty unrealistic to ask for something like that if you ask me. I won't hold my breath for it.I do know what you mean about being a demanding prick who believes we deserve more than just alright. We're all a bit like that here.
Far from it. To me a great owners know what is needed, understand the competition surrounding them and set a realistic target for the club to achieve their goals. They also need to understand the history and tradition of the club, and the goals need to align to the expectations of the club (by that it means the supporters, the players and the managers). We aim to be up there with the Man City, Chelsea and United. I am pretty sure they are aiming there too, but what are they willing to do to reach that target is the question.

A lot of people had been banging on the season where they shell out a hundred over million to buy players, not mentioning the money received from selling our best performers, 2 windows in a row. That is not entirely their fault because they don't do the deals, but it is their fault for hiring incompetent fella named Comolli (you can check how much I like him when we were linked with him). They do not trust Hodgson, granted, then why not let him go?

These are some of the examples where I think they are still unsure with what they are doing. And it went from bad to worse when they were adamant to get a football director in to help shape the club, only to discard the idea because the managers that are willing to take the job do not want someone above them. Also that is all good and dandy if you get a manager who knows his way around the industry at the highest order. But we got ourselves a mid-tiered rookie, and trying to make him - Shankly (come on... ).

They appointed the manager, they trust the manager, but they don't trust him enough to let him buy the players he wants or needs.

There are more examples, and that is why the division and polarity deepens. We have always been here discussing the performance of the manager, dated all the way back to the inception of the club. That didn't really divide the group of fans as much. The part where people jumping in to defend the owners, as if they can do no wrong, that is what parted the club. I don't blame this on FSG by any means, I blame this on G&H.
 

callanlfc

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I'm pretty sure we paid that off. The articles outdated 2010.
So we paid it off with that debt being our only debt at the time of takeover and now we have debt of over £60million?
 

TFC

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Far from it. To me a great owners know what is needed, understand the competition surrounding them and set a realistic target for the club to achieve their goals. They also need to understand the history and tradition of the club, and the goals need to align to the expectations of the club (by that it means the supporters, the players and the managers).
That would be a great owner, but I don't think owners like that exist outside of supporter based ownership.
 

lancashirelad

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I think the opening blog makes a lot of sense, we're down and thus frustrated.
- still don;'t trust FSG as far as I could throw them, but at least they're not the texas cowboys
 

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Wathik_LFC

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We are all fans who love Liverpool. Each of us feels the same joy and pain in the good and bad times. Yet we are all different people. We are individuals with our own opinion towards success.

We will differ and debate, argue, agree and disagree with each other. After all is said and done on this forum we all share something so precious and unique which is Liverpool FC. It's more than just a club, it's our passion, our love.

Our love for Liverpool will outlast FSGs ownership. We want Liverpool to successful. The next 2 windows will be critical to see how they view our beloved club.

I challenge you to man up, whether you were wrong about FSG or not. Admit your mistakes when the time comes and if you were right then say so. Let your voice be heard but do it genuinely.

I look forward to reading the posts of the ones who take up the challenge.
 

King Aldo

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... don't expect much by way of transfers in January. Rodgers is already dampening down expectations. Now this could be a ploy to keep fees low by pretending we won't have much money to spend OR it could be the truth.

Personally I think it is the latter, FSG are going to want to see how the end of year finances of the club look in the summer before they agree a transfer kitty for BR, so they are not going to make a large pot of cash available in January until the club has recouped some more of the savings made last summer on wages and so on.

If we buy it will be because we have sold the likes of Andy Carroll or Joe Cole or Downing.
 

lancashirelad

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I find it funny this season that a lot of fans are not happy with the way Liverpool are not up to standards.

I have been looking around the news of the other clubs in the Prem and noticed a few things:-

Manure fans are not pleased because they are conceding too many goals and that they are fed up with having to come from behind in most of their matches?

Man city fans are moaning because they have drawn to many games but remain unbeaten.

Chelski"fans", well they just don't like having a manager...any manager.

Even West Brom fans are having a go because they've lost their last two games and want to know why they are not in the top four now.

Arsenal supporters are booing every match at home and questioning every decision that Wenger makes.
Everton fans are even moaning that Moyes hasn't won anything for ten years.

Then there's us, a new manager in charge with a very limited squad, who has had to use a lot of the youngsters in the team but yet we sit in the middle of the table not far off the top four. Our problems can be helped with a couple of signings in the January transfer window. If the other clubs fans are moaning now, then wait till we get going..................We'll give them something to moan about. Don't forget these teams are all above us now, it will be nice to be looking down at them come the end of the season, don't you think?
 

DeathOrGlory

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Really getting ticked off by this forum at the moment.

Every thread descends into Mac Red vs ArD, with the majority of the rest constantly whining about Kenny leaving. Get over it.

Just hope we can put it all to rest with a good January window and a nice winning streak so we can all get behind Brendan.