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Division and Polarity

T.C.B

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I find it funny this season that a lot of fans are not happy with the way Liverpool are not up to standards.

I have been looking around the news of the other clubs in the Prem and noticed a few things:-

Manure fans are not pleased because they are conceding too many goals and that they are fed up with having to come from behind in most of their matches?

Man city fans are moaning because they have drawn to many games but remain unbeaten.

Chelski"fans", well they just don't like having a manager...any manager.

Even West Brom fans are having a go because they've lost their last two games and want to know why they are not in the top four now.

Arsenal supporters are booing every match at home and questioning every decision that Wenger makes.
Everton fans are even moaning that Moyes hasn't won anything for ten years.

Then there's us, a new manager in charge with a very limited squad, who has had to use a lot of the youngsters in the team but yet we sit in the middle of the table not far off the top four. Our problems can be helped with a couple of signings in the January transfer window. If the other clubs fans are moaning now, then wait till we get going..................We'll give them something to moan about. Don't forget these teams are all above us now, it will be nice to be looking down at them come the end of the season, don't you think?
I hope you are right about that last point you made mate. I've started to think some of our fans will never be happy no matter what happens. It must be difficult being a manager when every decision you make is questioned, every statement you make is examined and everybody knows more about it than you do.
 

OhYaBeauty

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I find it funny this season that a lot of fans are not happy with the way Liverpool are not up to standards.

I have been looking around the news of the other clubs in the Prem and noticed a few things:-

Manure fans are not pleased because they are conceding too many goals and that they are fed up with having to come from behind in most of their matches?

Man city fans are moaning because they have drawn to many games but remain unbeaten.

Chelski"fans", well they just don't like having a manager...any manager.

Even West Brom fans are having a go because they've lost their last two games and want to know why they are not in the top four now.

Arsenal supporters are booing every match at home and questioning every decision that Wenger makes.
Everton fans are even moaning that Moyes hasn't won anything for ten years.

Then there's us, a new manager in charge with a very limited squad, who has had to use a lot of the youngsters in the team but yet we sit in the middle of the table not far off the top four. Our problems can be helped with a couple of signings in the January transfer window. If the other clubs fans are moaning now, then wait till we get going..................We'll give them something to moan about. Don't forget these teams are all above us now, it will be nice to be looking down at them come the end of the season, don't you think?
Careful there, lancashirelad, optimism is banned on TIA. Wouldn't want you to get in trouble with the mods and get banned. ;-)


Really getting ticked off by this forum at the moment.

Every thread descends into Mac Red vs ArD, with the majority of the rest constantly whining about Kenny leaving. Get over it.

Just hope we can put it all to rest with a good January window and a nice winning streak so we can all get behind Brendan.
I'd like to add that everything turns into the FSG's and BR's fault, when the truth of the matter is, since August, they've really been unable to do anything about it. Its not like they can sign a player and fix our troubles, but some posters on here treat it as if there's a continual lack of investment. And the other thing that irks me is how Rodgers' and FSG's quotes about how much we'll have to spend in January and if players will be coming in gets scrutinized, twisted and then used as a stick to beat the owners and the manager.

Its exhausting, really, and its why I'm taking a break from the site until something of consequence actually happens that can stop the negativity.
 

mattyhurst

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Have to say attending the game today our fan base is a hive of negativity, I'm not sure if that train journey I was on is a general view but the only positive stuff about us was coming from a Southampton fan.
 

gasband

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Far from it. To me a great owners know what is needed, understand the competition surrounding them and set a realistic target for the club to achieve their goals. They also need to understand the history and tradition of the club, and the goals need to align to the expectations of the club (by that it means the supporters, the players and the managers). We aim to be up there with the Man City, Chelsea and United. I am pretty sure they are aiming there too, but what are they willing to do to reach that target is the question.

A lot of people had been banging on the season where they shell out a hundred over million to buy players, not mentioning the money received from selling our best performers, 2 windows in a row. That is not entirely their fault because they don't do the deals, but it is their fault for hiring incompetent fella named Comolli (you can check how much I like him when we were linked with him). They do not trust Hodgson, granted, then why not let him go?

These are some of the examples where I think they are still unsure with what they are doing. And it went from bad to worse when they were adamant to get a football director in to help shape the club, only to discard the idea because the managers that are willing to take the job do not want someone above them. Also that is all good and dandy if you get a manager who knows his way around the industry at the highest order. But we got ourselves a mid-tiered rookie, and trying to make him - Shankly (come on... ).

They appointed the manager, they trust the manager, but they don't trust him enough to let him buy the players he wants or needs.

There are more examples, and that is why the division and polarity deepens. We have always been here discussing the performance of the manager, dated all the way back to the inception of the club. That didn't really divide the group of fans as much. The part where people jumping in to defend the owners, as if they can do no wrong, that is what parted the club. I don't blame this on FSG by any means, I blame this on G&H.
Hey Eddie,I agree in a general basis on your last statement. You say that all owners who come in need to understand the tradition, the history and what owning this club is all about. FIrstly, I would find it hard to believe that when FSG bought this club, they had no idea that we are the most successful club, still, in the world. They would know the number of supporters this club have, and not just bandwagoners. They know hoas passionate we are. They know how big this club was and is.But they also know, we were in deep shit. They also know we had not won the league for 20 plus years. They also knew we nearly went bankrupt. They also know we had a bad owner before. They also knew we were not going anywhere. They knew we were rock bottom for a club like ours.And thus, you are right, the previous regimes brought us to this low. The owners knew it and would you think they do not know our expectations of this club? They knew it but to say that just because they come in and own this club and suddenly they should solve all the problems in 2 seasons, then we are wrong. There are fundamental issues with this club then just having the players or money (which we do not have alot). They are trying to build this club's fundamentals all over again so that it is possible for us to see this club at the peak where we belong. The way that some of us expects of our owners is just like expecting any new leader of Mongolia to bring back the glory days of the Mongol Empire suddenly again.It just aint gonna happen. At least not suddenly. We had our glory days. We do not have them now. But that does not change the DNA of this club. A great club with history, trasdition and the best fans in the world. But to see glory days again, then we have to let the owners do what I think is right, build from scratch and rebuild the fundamentals. I think the owners and us have the same target. The only difference is the time frame and I am willing to see out the owners time frame.
 

lancashirelad

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I hope you are right about that last point you made mate. I've started to think some of our fans will never be happy no matter what happens. It must be difficult being a manager when every decision you make is questioned, every statement you make is examined and everybody knows more about it than you do.
I may be a bit optimistic there mate but my point is there are 10 points between sixth place and the relegation zone, that's not a lot considering how much of the season is left to play.

Any team, such as ourselves, who can put a run of wins together will glide up the table and any team who falls to a number of defeats will sink quickly, but there's still time for fortunes to change.

The good thing is we've stemmed the flow of goals we were letting in during every game so we're more likely to at least draw now than lose compared to previous months.If we can just convert one or two more of the chances we create each game our outlook could be very different.

The margins this season are quite fine and if our players can dig that little bit deeper I have cautious hope for the future.
 

Artrain

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Have to say attending the game today our fan base is a hive of negativity, I'm not sure if that train journey I was on is a general view but the only positive stuff about us was coming from a Southampton fan.
I think we take ourselves too seriously sometimes. Just need to relax and remember that the whole point of watching this game and supporting a club is to have a good time and enjoy ourselves. Southampton fans were brilliant the other night. Could hear them singing from my TV almost for the entire game.
 

Hope in your heart

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I hope you are right about that last point you made mate. I've started to think some of our fans will never be happy no matter what happens. It must be difficult being a manager when every decision you make is questioned, every statement you make is examined and everybody knows more about it than you do.
That's true. You should have seen these boards when we were steamrolling our way through the league in the 2008-09 season. Moan, moan, moan all the time.


'really, why is Rafa always so cautious, he should unshackle the brakes, now we have again drawn a match, that's two points lost&#39

' only winning 3-2 against Fulham at home isn't good enough, we should wipe such weak teams off the floor&#39

'why did Rafa sell Keane, we are so toothless in front of goal&#39

'yet again, Gerrard and Torres injured... this surely must be due to our clueless physios'

'Benayoun may be a good player but he's f*cking inconsistent'

'86 points isn't good enough. It may be a club record since the early nineties, but it's not good enough, we'll never win anything again under Rafa'


etc. etc. That's human nature I suppose... :)
 

Mascot88

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That's true. You should have seen these boards when we were steamrolling our way through the league in the 2008-09 season. Moan, moan, moan all the time.


'really, why is Rafa always so cautious, he should unshackle the brakes, now we have again drawn a match, that's two points lost&#39

' only winning 3-2 against Fulham at home isn't good enough, we should wipe such weak teams off the floor&#39

'why did Rafa sell Keane, we are so toothless in front of goal&#39

'yet again, Gerrard and Torres injured... this surely must be due to our clueless physios'

'Benayoun may be a good player but he's f*cking inconsistent'

'86 points isn't good enough. It may be a club record since the early nineties, but it's not good enough, we'll never win anything again under Rafa'


etc. etc. That's human nature I suppose... :)
I remember it well. God it was depressing. The respect for Rafa from some was grudging at best. You could really sense people waiting for a poor season to really stick the boot in.
 

lfc.eddie

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I remember it well. God it was depressing. The respect for Rafa from some was grudging at best. You could really sense people waiting for a poor season to really stick the boot in.
Now, now.... mypost is no longer in this forum. Hope should know better....
 

Macedonian_Red

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Lets put it this way ... FSG are not bad owners in general, and they would be the perfect owners for a club like Everton, Newcastle or Aston Villa ... A club with a respectably sized stadium, a respectably sized fan base, and satisfied with the occasional European appearance ...

The problem is, LFC is not a club like Everton, Newcastle or Aston Villa ... We belong at the same level as Real Madrid, Juventus or Bayern Munich ... Any LFC fan who has grown up watching our club dominating England and Europe in the 70's and 80's, would never accept mediocrity ...

I know that this is difficult to understand for some of our younger fans, who think that a top 4 finish and a CL qualification is a success, but that is simply not good enough for Liverpool FC ... As one of our greats have said: "First is first, second is nowhere" ...
 

rupzzz

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Lets put it this way ... FSG are not bad owners in general, and they would be the perfect owners for a club like Everton, Newcastle or Aston Villa ... A club with a respectably sized stadium, a respectably sized fan base, and satisfied with the occasional European appearance ...

The problem is, LFC is not a club like Everton, Newcastle or Aston Villa ... We belong at the same level as Real Madrid, Juventus or Bayern Munich ... Any LFC fan who has grown up watching our club dominating England and Europe in the 70's and 80's, would never accept mediocrity ...

I know that this is difficult to understand for some of our younger fans, who think that a top 4 finish and a CL qualification is a success, but that is simply not good enough for Liverpool FC ... As one of our greats have said: "First is first, second is nowhere" ...
We don't have a divine right to be at the top mate. We have a rich history and pedigree within our club, but these days things are much much harder, and other clubs are now becoming stronger.We are LFC and should be higher than where we've been, but the way to do it isn't by hoping for some oil billionaire to buy us akin to a drop top car for a bit of weekend pleasure.All the clubs above us deserve to be there, but a lot of them will be below us.Getting into the Top 4 would be a massive success this season, or even next. It's a step by step process. We get to top 4, get the riches that come with that, spend the riches on improving the squad (alebit I suspect you have a theory that our owners will keep it for themselves and try to sell the club etc etc) and go from there.
 
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DeathOrGlory

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Indeed, I agree that we don't have any divine right to be at the top.

Big clubs have come and gone. It seems like our time was the 70's and 80's, with the scum having theirs right now, and Man City's is just starting. Same with perhaps PSG and Dortmund. This Barca team is the best team ever, and will likely never get as good as it was at least 3 years ago.

I'll be delighted with a return to the summit, obviously, but to assume that because we have won in the past means we are entitled to stay there is laughable.
 

Macedonian_Red

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We don't have a divine right to be at the top mate. We have a rich history and pedigree within our club, but these days things are much much harder, and other clubs are now becoming stronger.We are LFC and should be higher than where we've been, but the way to do it isn't by hoping for some oil billionaire to buy us akin to a drop top car for a bit of weekend pleasure.All the clubs above us deserve to be there, but a lot of them will be below us.Getting into the Top 4 would be a massive success this season, or even next. It's a step by step process. We get to top 4, get the riches that come with that, spend the riches on improving the squad (alebit I suspect you have a theory that our owners will keep it for themselves and try to sell the club etc etc) and go from there.
Sorry mate, but those are only excuses from FSG's textbook ... We are not getting into the top 4 this season, or anytime soon ... If you take a look at the actual table, we are sitting in the bottom half of it, and we are going to Boleyn Ground next weekend with no senior strikers on our team, thanks to our owners ... I can understand the supporters' desire to be positive and optimistic, and that is only natural ... Unfortunately, our reality is quite different from our hopes and our desires ... We will probably never get relegated under FSG, but we would also never win the Premier League or the Champions League ... I respect other supporters' right to be satisfied with it, but as far as I am concerned, that is simply not good enough ...
 

Kelly's Angel

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No one should expect us to get first quickly.We are not even good enough to be around the top.
I wasn't around when Shankly took over, but I think it took even him, some time to make us good.
Such mad expectations are the sole reason for extreme criticism.Patience is a good virtue, that some here should get themselves acquainted with.
 

rupzzz

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Sorry mate, but those are only excuses from FSG's textbook ... We are not getting into the top 4 this season, or anytime soon ... If you take a look at the actual table, we are sitting in the bottom half of it, and we are going to Boleyn Ground next weekend with no senior strikers on our team, thanks to our owners ... I can understand the supporters' desire to be positive and optimistic, and that is only natural ... Unfortunately, our reality is quite different from our hopes and our desires ... We will probably never get relegated under FSG, but we would also never win the Premier League or the Champions League ... I respect other supporters' right to be satisfied with it, but as far as I am concerned, that is simply not good enough ...
For the last month all's youve done is be negative Mac Red - The way you go on football does nothing but depress you and upset you. That's not the point of the sport.If you were a Leeds supporter and endured what they've gone through would you still support them? Or a Rangers fan? Some club that went to the bottom of the barrel?I don't get the point of being miserable about it. At the end of the day that's up to you and it doesn't bother me that you're always negative. Neither of us are wrong here. I just prefer to be positive and look at things with a smile.I do think we can win the CL and PL under FSG.
 
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Macedonian_Red

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For the last month all's youve done is be negative Mac Red - The way you go on football does nothing but depress you and upset you. That's not the point of the sport.If you were a Leeds supporter and endured what they've gone through would you still support them? Or a Rangers fan? Some club that went to the bottom of the barrel?I don't get the point of being miserable about it. At the end of the day that's up to you and it doesn't bother me that you're always negative. Neither of us are wrong here. I just prefer to be positive and look at things with a smile.I do think we can win the CL and PL under FSG.
We are nothing like Leeds or Rangers ... We have a £55 million annual TV revenue from the Premier League, a £41 million match-day revenue, a £25 million annual kit deal, and a £20 million annual shirt sponsorship deal ... Not to mention that we have signed numerous new sponsorship deals with the likes of Garuda Indonesia, Chevrolet, 188-Bet and Ramsey, and we still have the sponsorship deals with the likes of Carlberg, Lucozade, Park inn, Bank of America, Konica Minolta and many others ... There is a lot of money coming into the club, so there is a financial foundation for a strong push for the top places ... Unfortunately, FSG know that our fans have become less ambitious after the G&H fiasco, and they feel no need to rock the boat and show a serious financial commitment to the club they own ... The latest populist move to proclaim that they have "decided" to upgrade Anfield, with no real plan or time-table in place, is just another example of their strategy ... To summarize, FSG don't need to invest into the club ... They are perfectly fine as it is now ... We will continue to battle for the 6th spot with the likes of Everton and Newcastle, and the revenues will continue to come in ...
 

rupzzz

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We are nothing like Leeds or Rangers ... We have a £55 million annual TV revenue from the Premier League, a £41 million match-day revenue, a £25 million annual kit deal, and a £20 million annual shirt sponsorship deal ... Not to mention that we have signed numerous new sponsorship deals with the likes of Garuda Indonesia, Chevrolet, 188-Bet and Ramsey, and we still have the sponsorship deals with the likes of Carlberg, Lucozade, Park inn, Bank of America, Konica Minolta and many others ... There is a lot of money coming into the club, so there is a financial foundation for a strong push for the top places ... Unfortunately, FSG know that our fans have become less ambitious after the G&H fiasco, and they feel no need to rock the boat and show a serious financial commitment to the club they own ... The latest populist move to proclaim that they have "decided" to upgrade Anfield, with no real plan or time-table in place, is just another example of their strategy ... To summarize, FSG don't need to invest into the club ... They are perfectly fine as it is now ... We will continue to battle for the 6th spot with the likes of Everton and Newcastle, and the revenues will continue to come in ...
I didn't say we were Leeds or Rangers, and that is exactly where you go wrong on this forum. You skim read everyones posts and then spread more negativity with your 'facts' about what is and isn't going on at the club.Yes we have a lot of money coming in, but that covers the huge costs of running the club. The stadium will take time as I've said over and over again. Anyway I give up on your constant FSG bashing. No amount of reasoning will obviously make you realise that you are far too negative.
 

Macedonian_Red

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I didn't say we were Leeds or Rangers, and that is exactly where you go wrong on this forum. You skim read everyones posts and then spread more negativity with your 'facts' about what is and isn't going on at the club.Yes we have a lot of money coming in, but that covers the huge costs of running the club. The stadium will take time as I've said over and over again. Anyway I give up on your constant FSG bashing. No amount of reasoning will obviously make you realise that you are far too negative.
We have finished our last 3 seasons at the 7th, 6th and 8th place respectively ... We are currently sitting in the 11th place ... I am only being realistic, not negative ... By the way, I don't have a problems with people being optimistic without a foundation ... It is your prerogative ...
 

RichLFC

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Difficulty is the black and white outlook of many of our fans. It's cultural, people don't really like 'thinking' when it comes to considering internal club business, in the past we didn't need to as the people we had running us didn't make too many errors, so it was easy to settle in to a mindset of 'the club knows best'. It's a bit like politics in some ways, I.e. it doesn't really matter whether the candidate is an utter arsehole with shit all new ideas in terms of policies just so long as he wears the right colour rosette, people will just vote and protect that individual as a matter of course

Thing is that outlook hasn't completely gone away even though the last few ownership regimes have proved to be flawed, despite the good intentions of the likes of Moores, and perhaps so far FSG. The other side may be where you have people who have shall we say a rather jaundiced idea of US owners and will distrust them by instinct. It's that mildy zenophobic side versus the mindless optimism side

Like I said, black versus white, and people seem to be attracted to extremes

From my POV the present situation needs a better calibre of appointments at all levels of the club to be able to work in the Dortmund fashion that FSG are aiming for. The staffing hasn't measured up up to now and they need to pick their targets better. For instance, Rodgers is a brave appointment but he needs to be working with a strong CEO or someone experienced in footballing matters at the top end. The scouts also need to be working in sync with the manager, whispers on our again rather telegraphed sounding January targets that a 10 year old could scout simply by watching tv or the lack of use regarding last summer's stat based punt buy in Assaidi suggests that isn't happening at the moment. At Clubs like Dortmund they may not have the cash but they have great administrators, managers and scouts. This bit is where FSG have to do better than they have so far, get the right advice, which is not employing people like Commoli or Ayre to have so much responsibility on a day to day level

They can do all this, but do they see it? Being absentee owners, am not so sure they do. They may prefer just to have minions rather than people who can act independently. They may be seen as too much of a threat perhaps. It is the only real explanation I can think of to understand how some are instantly accountable and others appear untouchable. It's a bit odd really
 

EdWood

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I didn't say we were Leeds or Rangers, and that is exactly where you go wrong on this forum. You skim read everyones posts and then spread more negativity with your 'facts' about what is and isn't going on at the club.Yes we have a lot of money coming in, but that covers the huge costs of running the club. The stadium will take time as I've said over and over again. Anyway I give up on your constant FSG bashing. No amount of reasoning will obviously make you realise that you are far too negative.
It's difficult not to be negative when you consider how far we've fallen, primarily due to bad ownership and, to a lesser extent, indifferent management and piss-poor scouting. Personally I've just about blown myself out criticising the present owners because I've come to the conclusion that no matter how much I have a go at them, rightly imo, it will make no difference whatsover in getting them to invest more money (a lot more money than they have so far anyway) in the squad if they've no intention of doing so.

At the same time it's difficult to be positive because we are clearly struggling to compete with other rival major clubs under present owner-imposed financial constraints. They are gambling on FFP curtailing certain other clubs' massive player spending, which incidentaly may turn out to be unworkable when it eventually does comes into effect; other clubs seem to be paying it no heed at all. Stadium redevelopment is just a theoretical concept until work is seen to be done as we should know well from past experience.

Anyhoo, sh*t happens and there's f*ck-all that I can do about it.
 

Artrain

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They are gambling on FFP curtailing certain other clubs' massive player spending, which incidentaly may turn out to be unworkable when it eventually does comes into effect; other clubs seem to be paying it no heed at all.
I think the 'gambling' part just might be a bit of an overstatement. Its the sort of keyword media likes to use. Do not know very much about running a business, so better people will be able to comment on that, but I don't think any businessman worthy of that name will 'gamble' everything he has onto some prospect that may or may not happen how he or she wants. I'm pretty sure the owners have thought about what to do if FFP does not come into action.
 

DEVGRU

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No strikers for next weekend's match at Upton Park? No worries. I have a cunning plan. A very very cunning plan! We shall play with a 'false' number 9...and his name is...SHELVEY the bald.
 

Dr_J

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Unfortunately, FSG know that our fans have become less ambitious after the G&H fiasco, and they feel no need to rock the boat and show a serious financial commitment to the club they own ...
This is a claim supported by very little evidence. FSG know that we're less ambitious? If you read this board, not a chance. Even if they were running the club the way you think they are, they sure got a wake-up call after deadline day. Henry went even as far as apologizing.I understand people are frustrated with the current owners. I am too. They really messed up in the summer and it's hurting us now. But we have to remember that we blew millions upon millions on mid table players not so long ago. I think their ego took a serious hit. They gave away the controls and all of a sudden silly money was spent on trash. Seeing that happen destroyed their trust. It's fairly obvious to me that they were not ready to give the reins to BR in the summer quite yet.So, saying FSG is intentionally running the club into the ground is stupid at this point. If we come away without adding any quality to the squad in January then we have a right to be furious, but at this point I don't see any evidence that FSG is intentionally running the club into the ground while pulling the wool over the eyes of the supporters.
 

Lucas

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No strikers for next weekend's match at Upton Park? No worries. I have a cunning plan. A very very cunning plan! We shall play with a 'false' number 9...and his name is...SHELVEY the bald.
It'll be interesting to see how he copes, he put in a shift against Young Boys but drifted back into midfield loads. Anyway, another topic for another thread ;)
 

indianscouser

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Personally, i think its because different section of our fan base have different expectations.
If we accepted that we a mid table club for now, life would be easier.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Really getting ticked off by this forum at the moment.

Every thread descends into Mac Red vs ArD, with the majority of the rest constantly whining about Kenny leaving. Get over it.

Just hope we can put it all to rest with a good January window and a nice winning streak so we can all get behind Brendan.
Sorry about that.