Divock Origi (FW) Besiktas

[lfc.eddie]

Kevin Stewart was older than Origi is now when we sold him.

Uhm ok. Origi is worth £27m as I have highlighted number of times... so we are in agreement then?

 

[ILLOK]

Uhm ok. Origi is worth £27m as I have highlighted number of times... so we are in agreement then?

Sorry, are you just arguing for the sake of it then?

Shocker.

 

[lfc.eddie]

Sorry, are you just arguing for the sake of it then?

Shocker.

Pointing out flaws.....

 

[SirBillShankly]

I'm very interested to see what happens if big Div and Solanke both stay. Looks like Sturridge will be used more regularly and Brewster will return in the winter aswell. I wonder if Solanke will be ahead of Origi in the pecking order? Whatever happens 1 of them need to go out on loan.Would prefer that to be big Div as I think Solanke is the better player with greater potential.

Still think Origi is over-priced at £27m, but then again Wolves were prepared to fork out £22m so what do I know?

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

I'm very interested to see what happens if big Div and Solanke both stay. Looks like Sturridge will be used more regularly and Brewster will return in the winter aswell. I wonder if Solanke will be ahead of Origi in the pecking order? Whatever happens 1 of them need to go out on loan.Would prefer that to be big Div as I think Solanke is the better player with greater potential.

Still think Origi is over-priced at £27m, but then again Wolves were prepared to fork out £22m so what do I know?

Just because we ask for something doesn't mean we won't accept less. Apparently we were ok to go on the Wolves deal. He wasn't. Solanke won't reach his potential without playing time. So I think it's better to have him go out on loan to reach that potential and come back a better player.

 

[ptt]

Pointing out flaws.....

Carpeted, marble or wooden?

 

[Limiescouse]

Just because we ask for something doesn't mean we won't accept less. Apparently we were ok to go on the Wolves deal. He wasn't. Solanke won't reach his potential without playing time. So I think it's better to have him go out on loan to reach that potential and come back a better player.

I like Dom and think he is good enough to provide some useful contributions this season. Howewever, I dont think he is ready yet to be the main striker for anyone at this level. That means he's likely either going to have to drop down a level to play regularly, or go somewhere to be a back up. The latgter option is a terrible role for a kid to play on loan as the loaning club tend not to be willing to have the teething issues a young player goes through happen on their watch, and so he ends up just sitting on the bench game after game. While he needs games, I think he would be better off staying here and not playing than either of those options.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

I like Dom and think he is good enough to provide some useful contributions this season. Howewever, I dont think he is ready yet to be the main striker for anyone at this level. That means he's likely either going to have to drop down a level to play regularly, or go somewhere to be a back up. The latgter option is a terrible role for a kid to play on loan as the loaning club tend not to be willing to have the teething issues a young player goes through happen on their watch, and so he ends up just sitting on the bench game after game. While he needs games, I think he would be better off staying here and not playing than either of those options.

Disagree on that. Think a team competing near the top of the Dutch, Belgium, Portuguese or Scottish leagues would consider Solanke good enough. I think playing week in week out near the top of a league like that would be more help to his progress than the occasional spot on the bench or odd cup game here or there. I don't think we should be giving up on Solanke yet but unless he significantly improves we will end up needing to. I don't see his current rate of progress (going off last season) as being quick enough and he'll probably be in line for less time this season than last. The way things are going I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of our youth forwards (like Brewster and/or someone on loan like Woodburn) may overtake Solanke in the pecking order/usefulness to us on the pitch. Solanke needs a real kick in his development. It's too competitive here for him if he doesn't get that quickly.

 

[Limiescouse]

Disagree on that. Think a team competing near the top of the Dutch, Belgium, Portuguese or Scottish leagues would consider Solanke good enough.

I said at this level.

 

[Red over the water]

Watching a few of those Origi goals made me want to not give up on him.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

I said at this level.

You also said you thought he'd be better staying here and not playing than doing that which is what I disagreed with. Yes dropping down a level or two to a league like that isn't the same as playing at the level that we are at. But it'd still allow him to step it up. He isn't currently at the level of the top (or even the good) forwards in those leagues yet.

 

[Nikola]

Watching a few of those Origi goals made me want to not give up on him.

I see where you're coming from, quite frankly, similar thoughts go through my mind when I see those clips. However, we know that Klopp is someone whose coaching style is pretty much based on giving chances to young players and if he thinks that selling Origi at 23 years of age is the best course of action, then I fear that Origi is beyond redemption at Liverpool.

I would like to know what happened in Origi's head. It's like he suddenly lost motivation and/or simply slowed down his game. With that combo of physical and technical abilities, he could have been Drogba mk. 2 (I'm not letting that comparison go!). Now he just looks timid as a baby whenever I see him on the pitch, a bit like Ibe.

He should pick his next club carefully and not price himself out of certain deals or think himself better than he is. I think Nuno Espirito Santo would have been a good coach for him, looking at how Wolves play and how they make the most out of their physical abilities.

I also hope that his failure to move doesn't have negative repercussions on Solanke's future at Liverpool, he's now probably facing a scramble to find a new temporary club where he should be able to start for at least the next six months or so, which sound difficult as there are no clubs that would give him a starting role, only for him to leave midway through season.

 

[lfc.eddie]

I also hope that his failure to move doesn't have negative repercussions on Solanke's future at Liverpool, he's now probably facing a scramble to find a new temporary club where he should be able to start for at least the next six months or so, which sound difficult as there are no clubs that would give him a starting role, only for him to leave midway through season.

Germany.... send him there.

 

[indianscouser]

Germany.... send him there.

Can think of the championship. I am surprised that Bournemouth or Newcastle were not after him, genuinely feel their managers can get 7-10 goals from this lad. He has the skills, its just the playing time he needs.

 

[lfc.eddie]

Can think of the championship. I am surprised that Bournemouth or Newcastle were not after him, genuinely feel their managers can get 7-10 goals from this lad. He has the skills, its just the playing time he needs.

None of those clubs went after him because he wasn't never up for loan, our goal is to sell Origi which we failed to do so, and had no choice but to loan Solanke. If not he is going to sit in the reverses and not able to make much progress without proper playing time.

 

[indianscouser]

None of those clubs went after him because he wasn't never up for loan, our goal is to sell Origi which we failed to do so, and had no choice but to loan Solanke. If not he is going to sit in the reverses and not able to make much progress without proper playing time.

I was referring to solanke for loan. As far as origi goes, if nothing materializes, hope he gives his best and tries to push sturridge. I think Origi is a decent lad, currently surplus to our requirements. He can be a decent Plan B as a target man when needed, though that is not the way we usually play. But who knows!

 

[lfc.eddie]

I was referring to solanke for loan. As far as origi goes, if nothing materializes, hope he gives his best and tries to push sturridge. I think Origi is a decent lad, currently surplus to our requirements. He can be a decent Plan B as a target man when needed, though that is not the way we usually play. But who knows!

Yes.... he was never up for loan during the English Premier League window being opened. Hence why none of them registered any interest in him. We are only looking to let him out because we want him to get more playing time with Origi being back and we are looking to sell Origi outright.

 

[Strictly Armchair]

I would like to know what happened in Origi's head. It's like he suddenly lost motivation and/or simply slowed down his game. With that combo of physical and technical abilities, he could have been Drogba mk. 2 (I'm not letting that comparison go!). Now he just looks timid as a baby whenever I see him on the pitch, a bit like Ibe.

Not dissimilar to what I was thinking once he started to get some momentum going in the spring of '16. However, since returning from that injury he's looked more like Heskey mk. 2. Physically still has everything in the locker but mentally has everything locked away. Unless he gets his finger out soon then all he'll be doing is pootling around mid table clubs in Europe's bigger leagues.

 

[Barnestormer]

I see where you're coming from, quite frankly, similar thoughts go through my mind when I see those clips. However, we know that Klopp is someone whose coaching style is pretty much based on giving chances to young players and if he thinks that selling Origi at 23 years of age is the best course of action, then I fear that Origi is beyond redemption at Liverpool.

I would like to know what happened in Origi's head. It's like he suddenly lost motivation and/or simply slowed down his game. With that combo of physical and technical abilities, he could have been Drogba mk. 2 (I'm not letting that comparison go!). Now he just looks timid as a baby whenever I see him on the pitch, a bit like Ibe.

He should pick his next club carefully and not price himself out of certain deals or think himself better than he is. I think Nuno Espirito Santo would have been a good coach for him, looking at how Wolves play and how they make the most out of their physical abilities.

I also hope that his failure to move doesn't have negative repercussions on Solanke's future at Liverpool, he's now probably facing a scramble to find a new temporary club where he should be able to start for at least the next six months or so, which sound difficult as there are no clubs that would give him a starting role, only for him to leave midway through season.

Hasn't been the same since he was crocked by the bitters; a woefully bad tackle, nearly broke his ankle as I recall. I always thought it was the psychological impact of that. For example, a similarly bad tackle finished the prospects of Eduardo at Arsenal. He has never shown the form he did since, before that tackle.

 

[Hope in your heart]

Hasn't been the same since he was crocked by the bitters; a woefully bad tackle, nearly broke his ankle as I recall. I always thought it was the psychological impact of that. For example, a similarly bad tackle finished the prospects of Eduardo at Arsenal. He has never shown the form he did since, before that tackle.

Yeah, I think too that this incident, although not really that damaging for his health in itself, had a devastating impact on him. Psychologically, you're right about that, but it's always also about the timing with these things. It happened just when he was about to get a regular scoring form and have a real impact on our results, thus being on the way to cement a place in the team. That must have been gutting. After that, he had a lay-off during at least a part of the next pre-season training period if I remember well, and we know how crucial this period is for the players with Klopp as manager. That allowed other players to take his place, and since then, he seems to have had issues with confidence which in turn affected his performances when called upon.

I wrote earlier in his thread that his year at Wolfsburg wasn't as bad as people think when scratching the surface a bit. I'm also sure that he can be a good back-up striker for us this season. But looking at his potential, it's really disappointing how his career has gone on since that tackle. Little niggling injuries have taken their toll too. Hopefully he can stay fully fit during this season, fingers crossed. He's maybe part of the kind of slow burners who will get to the best years of his career as a more mature player (like Drogba for instance).

The fact that the club value him highly in terms of what they are asking for him in the player market, makes me think that Klopp hasn't given up on him yet. Let's see how it goes until January. Then make a reassessment.

 

[charleslee89]

How bad must origi be that even Markovic has already gotten suitors for his signature?

 

[SirBillShankly]

How bad must origi be that even Markovic has already gotten suitors for his signature?

I think he may well be consoled by the fact that we are asking £27m for him.

You never know, maybe he is chuffed that we've put such a high value on him?

 

[Barnestormer]

Yeah, I think too that this incident, although not really that damaging for his health in itself, had a devastating impact on him. Psychologically, you're right about that, but it's always also about the timing with these things. It happened just when he was about to get a regular scoring form and have a real impact on our results, thus being on the way to cement a place in the team. That must have been gutting. After that, he had a lay-off during at least a part of the next pre-season training period if I remember well, and we know how crucial this period is for the players with Klopp as manager. That allowed other players to take his place, and since then, he seems to have had issues with confidence which in turn affected his performances when called upon.

I wrote earlier in his thread that his year at Wolfsburg wasn't as bad as people think when scratching the surface a bit. I'm also sure that he can be a good back-up striker for us this season. But looking at his potential, it's really disappointing how his career has gone on since that tackle. Little niggling injuries have taken their toll too. Hopefully he can stay fully fit during this season, fingers crossed. He's maybe part of the kind of slow burners who will get to the best years of his career as a more mature player (like Drogba for instance).

The fact that the club value him highly in terms of what they are asking for him in the player market, makes me think that Klopp hasn't given up on him yet. Let's see how it goes until January. Then make a reassessment.

Cant see it myself, but suppose its the right thing to do - wait and see if the rise we are on can lift him back into a memory of what he was becoming; my suspicion is the niggles he picks up now are a by product of where he is at, down on himself, in and out of match fitness, a lost appetite ultimately. He was in the least he was back up for Lukaku at the WC - if that means anything. But yes, its such a shame as he was looking the real business, scored some very aggressive and direct quality goals, then for that probably got ear-marked and crocked by a reckless CB on a mission. I just dont know how many players have come back from this, or on your example, what Drogba would have done thereafter. At a certain level it reflects on the tenacity of the player; no-one would have dared on Drogba!

 

[Red over the water]

Would be nice if he could score and see us knock Chelsea out of the League Cup. Might be the start of a turnaround.

Like everyone has said, all the tools, but not putting it together and is a shadow of what he might be. The Funes Mori thing was a factor, but that was a long time ago, and he has had a lot of time to put that behind him. OK a succession of loans might not have helped, especially the last one with Wolfsburg chopping and changing so much. But at some point it feels a bit like we are making excuses for him.

To be a top player you have to overcome adversity, and Origi needs to show that, or he will spend his career playing at middling clubs, earning a decent wage and all, but not becoming anything like the player we had hoped and thought he might be.

Over to you Big Div. Knock Chelsea out and rekindle something. You never know.

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

Hasn't been the same since he was crocked by the bitters; a woefully bad tackle, nearly broke his ankle as I recall. I always thought it was the psychological impact of that. For example, a similarly bad tackle finished the prospects of Eduardo at Arsenal. He has never shown the form he did since, before that tackle.

He was back in time for the final. It didn't even come close to the Eduardo tackle. It didn't even end his season. He was out a couple of weeks which, with Klopp, a few of which was probably fitness and conditioning related.

 

[RobLFC]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't quite get the way a bad tackle is used to explain why Origi is now pretty awful (in relative terms), compared to the superstar he was apparently going to become?!

Yes, it was a bad tackle. But not THAT bad in comparison to what goes on throughout a football season. There will be a handful of tackles, if not more, this year in the league which are the same or even worse. Because there are every season.

Origi was out for 25 days and missed 7 games (per Transfermarkt). That's a reasonable chunk of time and enough that it might curtail a run of form and mean a player has to play himself back into good form again. Depending on the character of the person it might even mean that initially they are wary going into a challenge, but seeing as he's only missed three matches in over two years since, one of which was because of flu, you would have thought any lingering fear of contact in the challenge would have long since gone.

He's not a bad player, but looking at his stats he's never scored more than 8 goals in a season (14/15), in 33 appearances that year - 2152 minutes, or 269 minutes per goal. Before the Mori tackle, he'd scored 7 goals for us in 34 appearances - 1457 minutes (208 minutes per goal). Rather than the tackle stopping what was going to be an upward projection of his career, I think it simply stopped a purple patch of form he was on, that a lot of players go through in their careers. Once that spell had ended, he's regressed back to the level he was at for much of the rest of his career (apart from his spell at the World Cup, just before we bought him - another short-term peak).

Even at his best, Origi just doesn't score enough to be a top class striker. He used to put himself about a bit more, but that effort doesn't seem there any more either. You've got a striker who doesn't score enough and doesn't contribute enough off the ball or creating chances for others to outweigh the lack of goals. I'm not surprised we didn't get any takers at the hugely inflated price we were quoting and unless there is an injury crises, I doubt we'll see Divock outside of the League Cup this year - and even that might not happen because I imagine Sturridge will start that one. He'll be gone next summer, either for a much reduced price or on loan somewhere if we still insist on a ridiculous fee.

 

[Hope in your heart]

Cant see it myself, but suppose its the right thing to do - wait and see if the rise we are on can lift him back into a memory of what he was becoming; my suspicion is the niggles he picks up now are a by product of where he is at, down on himself, in and out of match fitness, a lost appetite ultimately. He was in the least he was back up for Lukaku at the WC - if that means anything. But yes, its such a shame as he was looking the real business, scored some very aggressive and direct quality goals, then for that probably got ear-marked and crocked by a reckless CB on a mission. I just dont know how many players have come back from this, or on your example, what Drogba would have done thereafter. At a certain level it reflects on the tenacity of the player; no-one would have dared on Drogba!

At one point, he had relegated Lukaku on the bench of the Belgium side... But Funes-Mori's tackle brought forward something fragile in Divock. Drogba has been injured too, but he was one hell of a character and came always back from it, seemingly better than before. I don't know if Origi can come back from these set-backs, but you never know in football...

Bottom-line for me is that if Klopp values him at 27m, he must see something in him that many others can't see anymore. And I tend to trust Klopp's judgment...

 

[GaryBarlow99]

Wolves were willing to pay £22m plus a few million addons so the valuation was not crazy.

 

[Barnestormer]

Lets just play it again, for the postmodernists:

 

[Anfield rd Dreamer]

Lets just play it again, for the postmodernists:

I don't know what you are trying to prove/show? It's a bad tackle/deliberate foul. See several like that every season they aren't good but also aren't rare. It was only bad enough to keep him out a couple of weeks (including fitness and conditioning). Physically there's nothing special to this. Especially not enough to destroy a potential career. If it's what killed his motivation/mojo or passion for the game because he thought "ooo I don't fancy that much" then his career trajectory is on him and him alone. He was always going to get a challenge like that at some point in his career.