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Expectations of Owners, Manager and Fans

If we finish higher than 8th is it a fantastic season?


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DanLFC

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Think we have a strong spine

Reina/Agger/Skrtel/Johnson/Allen/Stevie/Lucas/Suarez all quality players and a very decent spine to build around

If Enrique can find some form and consistency we could add his name to that list, maybe we sign Sahin on a perm deal and we add his name to that list. Come Jan we bring in a striker and a wide forward ala KJH and either Walcott or Sturridge and we are back in the game in a big way.

Still gives us Sterling, Suso etc as squad players which are pretty handy squadies

I don't buy into the doom and gloom, at the end of the window I was filthy at FSG for not getting a forward but the past is the past and we need to look at the positives and keep building for the future. In my opinion we are a few quality player away from top 4 contention. Gonna be tough this year but if FSG stump up some dollars and we get the right players in the next two windows I can see us doing well next season especially given the improvement from our young guys, they will surely take another step forward in the next 12 months.
 

RedBaron

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Anyone who says that "Eighth would be fantastic", doesn't support LFC and should never be associated with the club in any form be it manager, player or supporter.
 

DEVGRU

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Anyone who says that "Eighth would be fantastic", doesn't support LFC and should never be associated with the club in any form be it manager, player or supporter.
Not to disagree with you or anything, but why?
 

AnfieldCat

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I don't think we should ever think 8th is 'fantastic' but sadly its realistic, its too hard to say at the moment though, it really does depend on what happens in January, if we end up as downbeat at the end of that transfer window as we did on the last one I'd probably be happy to finish 8th as I would be very pessimistic.
 

Rooster

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Not the best first question. 8th would be shite but fourth somewhat fantastic from where we are.

I am in the positive camp and think minimum 8th and we will start putting together a string of results. Wigan look out.

Genuinely excited with what I am seeing from the S's - Sterllng, Suarez, Suso and Shelvey.
 
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From what I recall when we had that poll before the start of the season most votes were pretty evenly split between 4th, 5th and 6th (I voted for 5th). And looking at the poll now it seems we have gone down a couple of steps with the majority of votes being distributed between 6th, 7th and 8th.

Personally there is no way that I think finishing higher than 8th can be defined as a 'fantastic' achievement. Like AnfieldCAt said it might be the most realistic thing at the moment but definitely not 'fantastic'. That just reaks of a mid-table mentality. What we need to succeed is a mentality of winners which sadly- besides a few players like Suarez- is alarmingly lacking in our squad.

So no I really do not think that we should be aiming that low this season and I sincerely hope that is not the message that Rodgers is giving out to his players. We may not have hit top form yet but I do believe the team has a lot more potential than it is showing at the moment. With players like Suarez, Gerrard, Sahin, Lucas, Allen, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson and Reina in the squad among others (not to mention the talented youngsters) we are more than capable of at least challenging for 4th spot especially if we bring in a couple more forwards during January. Anything less is underachieving in my book and looking for excuses.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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The fact that even 6 people said finishing about 8th is fantastic makes me sick. Yeah, we need to balance realism and not being arrogant ("oh we lost to Anzhi? That's fine, we'll just thrash young boys at home" for example). But settling and lowering your expectations is never a good thing.

"Aim for the sky and you'll hit the ceiling. Aim for the ceiling and you'll stay on the floor." - Bill Shankly
I voted for "Is finishing higher than 8th fantastic" for 2 reasons, first 1st, 2nd and 3rd are all above 8th. And second after tearing up the plan on our squad last summer if our starting point is the same or better than the point we were at when we hit restart then that means we have stopped the slide and can build on from there.

Edit: I also believe we will finish in the top 4!
 

liveforthereds

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From what I recall when we had that poll before the start of the season most votes were pretty evenly split between 4th, 5th and 6th (I voted for 5th). And looking at the poll now it seems we have gone down a couple of steps with the majority of votes being distributed between 6th, 7th and 8th.

Personally there is no way that I think finishing higher than 8th can be defined as a 'fantastic' achievement. Like AnfieldCAt said it might be the most realistic thing at the moment but definitely not 'fantastic'. That just reaks of a mid-table mentality. What we need to succeed is a mentality of winners which sadly- besides a few players like Suarez- is alarmingly lacking in our squad.

So no I really do not think that we should be aiming that low this season and I sincerely hope that is not the message that Rodgers is giving out to his players. We may not have hit top form yet but I do believe the team has a lot more potential than it is showing at the moment. With players like Suarez, Gerrard, Sahin, Lucas, Allen, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson and Reina in the squad among others (not to mention the talented youngsters) we are more than capable of at least challenging for 4th spot especially if we bring in a couple more forwards during January. Anything less is underachieving in my book and looking for excuses.
And from what I can remember there was one who thought we would come 1st lol can't remember who it was and I bet he/she won't come forward and admit to it lol
 

RedBaron

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Not to disagree with you or anything, but why?
Why? simply because as a Liverpool supporter we should, in fact must, demand more of our team. The fact that we will in all probability be mid table this year doesn't mean we have to settle for it, accept it or as some have said think its a "Fantastic" result.
In the real world "Being Liverpool" means a lot more than some cheesy TV program, it means success, in my opinion of course. I don't want it, I expect it.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Why? simply because as a Liverpool supporter we should, in fact must, demand more of our team. The fact that we will in all probability be mid table this year doesn't mean we have to settle for it, accept it or as some have said think its a "Fantastic" result.
In the real world "Being Liverpool" means a lot more than some cheesy TV program, it means success, in my opinion of course. I don't want it, I expect it.
I dont know your opinions on the matter so asking as I really dont know the answer but were you for or against Kenny being sacked? Because from the way you are talking Im guessing you dont believe 8th is ever acceptable? I disagree as I think sometimes if you are running flat out in a race and you start stumbling the only way to stand a chance in the race is to stop yourself, fix yourself and get going again. In short term you lose ground but in long term you make up more ground than soldiering on. Sometimes its worth taking 1 step back to make 5 steps forward than just making 2 steps forward. Kenny would have had to do a rebuild this summer too as the squad we were left with after last season wasn't good enough with a bad midfield and a rapidly departing/under par attack.
 

RedSeven

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I voted for "Is finishing higher than 8th fantastic" for 2 reasons, first 1st, 2nd and 3rd are all above 8th. And second after tearing up the plan on our squad last summer if our starting point is the same or better than the point we were at when we hit restart then that means we have stopped the slide and can build on from there.

Edit: I also believe we will finish in the top 4!
Now that's just crazy talk.You must be smoking something
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Now that's just crazy talk.You must be smoking something
Why do people continually fail to spot Dreamer in my name.... Constant surprise at my optimistic view points... Some people.... Beggars belief.... Grumble grumble grumble....
 

Macedonian_Red

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With these owners, we will probably never finish in the top 4 again ... Not only that they are showing a serious lack of investment and ambition, but they are also severely decreasing the level of our wage bill, so the gap between LFC and the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City and Arsenal will only get bigger by the time ... Not being in danger of administration is fine, but fighting for an Europa League spot every season is pretty depressing, to be honest ...
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Haha I cant see the votes on my phone. In all seriousness though we have just come through both a helatious start to the season and the bedding in period for a new manager and squad. We are only 8 points off 4th facing quite a decent run for a little while and the ability to fix our goals for column in 2 months time. We are also in our longest unbeaten run in 2012 in the league and if we had more goal scorers in the squad could of picked up maximum points during that period and currently be sitting in fourth. I think fourth is still a realistic target. See City, Chelsea an United pulling away over season but Spurs, Arsenal, Everton and Newcastle are either stuttering already or due for a stutter at some stage in the season and we can compete with them all.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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And? Point? At one point last season weren't Spurs 13 points clear of 4th place sitting in 3rd? Its a 38 game season you dont get anything for your place after game 11 only after game 38. I admit I am having to try and guess what your point is here.
 

Tetteh_Dalglish

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Don't see us finishing anything higher than 10 with current team. I still don't think we will finish anything higher than 7th, even with new addition coming in on January window. It would be a mountain to climb if results don't come quickly. 11 games and we have 2 wins spell trouble.
Boy, you really are the pessimist aren't you? We need more folks like you to help lower expectations Eddie!

I put my money on 6th, partly because I'm hopeful we'll get in some extra fire power in January, but also because when I look at our next 10 games, I see us being able to get 18 to 24 points fairly comfortably, with 20 being the number of points I expect from the next 10 games. That's CL qualification form. If that happens, and I'm aware ifs aren't worth a whole lot, we'll be going into January with some confidence, which will be boosted further with the arrival of some additional striking talent.

In answer to the question in the opening post, I don't think finishing above 8th is "fantastic", but given the personnel turnover and the expectation of deterioration before improvement with a new manager, it's not unreasonable to expect us to tread water this season before making reinforcements to push us further up the table. I happen to expect we'll finish in 6th, but I'm very glad Rodgers is keeping a lid on expectations. We have a lot of hard work ahead of us and an injury to Suarez would probably shave at least 5 league places off any of our predictions for this season.

That said, I'm seeing improvement in our play and it pleases me that Rodgers has a pragmatic approach to things (as we saw when he was quick to change a system that was flawed at half-time vs Chelsea). Credit to him that he's willing to try new things, and credit to him that he isn't so stubborn as not to be able to admit when he has screwed up. That takes some humility and some balls. I'm not his biggest admirer - he still has a lot to learn - but I respect him and I'm content with the trajectory the team seems to be on. (It's not that different a trajectory than we were on under Kenny, and I was hoping then for patience and investment to add firepower to push us from a team creating lots of chances and not finishing them, to a team scoring goals for fun. I'm still hoping for the same and I'm confident with the right additions in January, and maintaining some good form in the next 10 games (From Wigan @ home to Sunderland away), we could all be feeling a little bit more perky come January. At which point, Brendan's low expectations game will be critical.
 

Prolix

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With these owners, we will probably never finish in the top 4 again ... Not only that they are showing a serious lack of investment and ambition, but they are also severely decreasing the level of our wage bill, so the gap between LFC and the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City and Arsenal will only get bigger by the time ... Not being in danger of administration is fine, but fighting for an Europa League spot every season is pretty depressing, to be honest ...
You confuse me. You say this, but in the 'who would you buy' thread you suggest that we're only a couple signings away from being a truly competitive side, going so far as to suggest a number of targets that are definitely within our price range.

I for one think that January will go very well, we'll have a very respectable second half of the season to finish strongly, we'll strengthen again in the summer, and by next year we'll really kick on. I'm content with that timeline.
 

steveee

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Not only that they are showing a serious lack of investment and ambition, but they are also severely decreasing the level of our wage bill, so the gap between LFC and the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City and Arsenal will only get bigger by the time ...


maybe United,Chelsea, and City but not Arsenal... Arsenal have lost just as many of their top players as us over the last few years and I don't seem as a club that are willing to pay higher wages than us at all. if anything they are very similar to us except for the fact that they have their new stadium. Their owner Mr. Kroenke is very cheap though.. . He is worth billions and his wife is worth more but yet he doesn't ever splash the cash on his NFL, NHL, and NBA teams and they are always mediocre and win nothing just like Arsenal who hasn't won a trophy in 7 years 5 months... I will take FSG as our owners instead of Stan Kroenke of Arsenal any day of the week... Arsenal will never win anything with Stan as their owner imo trust me FSG have more ambition to make us successful again than him

I also would take our current owners over the Glazer family as well because they will not put us in major debt again
 

WrinkledMind

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RedBaron Being realistic doesn't mean accepting mediocrity, or being pessimistic or being defeatist.

We have been in transition, ever since Rafa left.We are a side which has undergone too many changes in a short time and unfortunately none of them have been productive or promising.It remains a fractured squad.And to expect miracles from it (finishing 4th for me would be a miracle) is wrong for two reasons:-
1]You are in denial of our decline.
2]You are putting unfair expectations on this side and when it wont be achieved, you will put unfair criticism on it.

EveryGameNoExcuses Reina/Agger/Skrtel/Johnson/Allen/Stevie/Lucas/Suarez is not a good enough spine.Let me elaborate.

Reina is serious lacking form, even though he will eventually find it(being a good player that he is).
I will give you that our defense looks reasonably good with Skrtel, Agger & Glen.

Our midfield worries me a lot.Gerrard is on a rapid decline and we would be lucky(or unlucky whichever way you look at it) if he manages to give us 2 good years.Allen has shown his many short comings as a DM.I believe he will make a good play-maker, but currently as a DM he is having shockers.Sahin has not been impressive and it would be pointless counting him in with his future with us not guaranteed.Shelvey though promising as an AM will never make it as a CM, as he is a carbon copy of Gerrard.Hendo hasn't really fulfilled his promise(I believe in him though).
Which leaves us with the only assured bright spot and that is Lucas.But guess what he is injured and theres no guarantee how well he will come back from such a long lay off.

Suarez has class but will he have the patience to stick wit us, considering he will attract interest every transfer windows?

I am sorry, if I sound shockingly pessimistic but this is not a spine, especially with that non-existent midfield.
But like I said in my earlier post, that if BR is able to build that spine by May, then I will take this season as a success.Even if that comes at the expense of finishing 8th.
 

Macedonian_Red

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You confuse me. You say this, but in the 'who would you buy' thread you suggest that we're only a couple signings away from being a truly competitive side, going so far as to suggest a number of targets that are definitely within our price range.
There is nothing to be confused about ... FSG have the money ... They don't have to spend it, since their PR campaign aimed at the LFC supporters, about the FFP rules and the future self-sustainability, is getting better results than expected ...
 

DanLFC

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@Wrinkled Mine

You would accept that Allen is playing out of position tho? So his best form is yet to come and for mine he has been one of our better players this season. Perhaps let himself down the last couple of games but it is to be expected when he is playing a role he is not entirely familiar with and nobody is perfect, nobody plays a perfect game every week so at this point I think Allen with Lucas behind him becomes an even better player for us and the combo of Lucas and Allen is a great platform to build on. We then have Stevie who I agree is winding back and Shelvey and Suso coming through to play the AM role once Stevie moves to a more rotationary role.

If we are starting with Lucas, Allen and Suso as our midfield three I think we have a bright future there. Throw in Shelvey & Hendo who at some point will find his confidence and start to make a greater contribution and we have a pretty handy group of players.

Upfront we are certainly short and I to agree Suarez will attract attention every window until we are competing higher up the table. It has to be said he could have left in the summer tho, new manager, lots of other players leaving but he chose to stay and and signed a new long term contract with us so he is locked in for at least a few years hopefully by which time we will be back in the CL picture.

I look at the squad and sure it is thin at the moment but injuries is playing a hand there with Lucas, Borini and Kelly all out and all players who would be a part of the game day squads at the moment but those injuries won't be forever and when they return we improve. We also have to think we will continue to see improvement from Suso, Sterling, Shelvey, Hendo, Coates, Wisdom, Kelly, Allen and Borini all of which are 22 or younger.

So I think we have a very decent spine and I think we have plenty of quality young players so for mine the future looks bright. We just need to start winning games and hopefully January brings a few additions which further enhance the spine and push us on.
 

5euros

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I'm not going to make any predictions at this stage purely because I don't have a clue where we will finish. A lot hinges on whether we add a couple of players in January who will help convert these frustrating draws into win. Personally speaking, given the turmoil we have had to experience as a club for a few years now, this season is more about getting everything pulling in the right direction. It is less about where we finish and more about building something that can finish higher and higher in coming seasons. I would like to think we can finish about 8th. It is painful enough as a Liverpool fan to finish outside the top four never mind the top 8 but context is important.
 

REDSkins

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I voted:
No
6th
No
This is how I voted. If we have a bad January then I'll say 7th-8th. Doubt they'd sack BR for 8th place but the will of owners re: managers can only last so long...after all, even Steve Kean got sacked eventually (and it wouldnt take nearly as long when the LFC brand is on the line & fans are picketing).

I think FSG have learned their lesson (or they should've) with making declarations about their expectations. So even if they say "we're okay with 10th" that would only be to hedge their bets so the supporters aren't asking for BR's head because otherwise if BR finishes at last season's level or below, keeping him is an indirect insult to the King.

Maxi, Kuyt, Bellamy, Carroll has become Borini, Assaidi. That is a massive drop in experience and immediate effectiveness. Our midfield is a bit better but not in terms of scoring or creating goals (maybe when Nuri wakes up). If you don't have a lot of goals in a league campaign, you're crocked. So my expectations are lower than normal this year, as should everyone else's (fwiw even under Kenny I expected 6th). Sterling & Suso are freebies but I wouldn't factor them into expectations (hopes, rather). Maybe after Sterling signs his improved contract..(£££)

For us to finish 9th would mean Arsenal, Spurs, Everton, Fulham, AND Newcastle would have to finish ahead of us. I can't fathom all of them finishing ahead of us unless we lose both Suarez and Lucas to injury all season (all while they maintain their leading players..Berbatov, Fellaini, Cazorla, Cabaye, etc). West Ham and West Brom..surely will finish mid table
 

DEVGRU

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Some facts to digest over breakfast.
  • Liverpool’s net spend under Kenny Dalglish: £38 million
However!

LFC players signed since Jan 2011-Sept 2011

Andy Carroll, Luis Suarez, Doni, Charlie Adam, Jose Enrique, Jordan Henderson, Stewart Downing, Coates
Total Gross fees(approx): £112m

Estimated total annual wages for new signings : £23m per annum

If we assume each player contract is for 5 years, we can then amortise the cost of their transfer fees by dividing them by 5, to give us an annual gross cost for the new signings : –

Annual cost of transfer fees (£112m over 5 years) = £22m

Annual cost of new player wages = £23m

Therefore gross total annual cost of this summer’s transfer activity = £45m

LFC players departed since Jan 2011 and likely to be gone by 31[sup]st[/sup] August

Fernando Torres, Ryan Babel, Jovanovic, Alberto Aquilani, Paul Konchesky, David Ngog, Nabil El Zahr, Danny Pacheco, Ayala, Philip Degen, Joe Cole, Christian Poulsen, Brad Jones

Total estimated gross fees recouped : £72m

Estimated annual wage savings : £32m

Again, if we amortise the fees by the 5 year average contract length, the annual fee recouped figure = c.£14m

Annual wages saved (as above) = £32m

Therefore gross total annual cost of monies recouped this summer = £46m

So, and here’s the big reveal, our true, as near-as-dammit, estimated crudely, yet probably not miles out, best approximation for net spend by LFC this summer is…….wait for it…….(drum roll) …. minus £1m.

By August 31[sup]st[/sup], of the players we will have released, only one contributed to the first team squad in any significant way last season (Fernando Torres). The rest will not have amassed enough premiership starts between them to be equivakent to more than one more player’s worth of loss (Babel, Jovanovic, Konchesky, Ngog, Cole and Poulsen).

Yet on the other side of the assessment, we’ve added arguably 6 players, who are all very likely to fill first 11 positions. That’s half a dozen new first teamers in, with effectively two going the other way, and all for the princely sum of one million pounds.

Source: http://www.theanfiel...ore-moneyballs/


A much clearer understanding and view of our net spend/transfers in/out can be viewed here;
http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premiership-transfers/liverpool-transfers.html

It shows our income/money spent and actual net spend all the way back to Houllier's reign.
 

Macedonian_Red

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Some facts to digest over breakfast.
  • Liverpool’s net spend under Kenny Dalglish: £38 million
However!

LFC players signed since Jan 2011-Sept 2011

Andy Carroll, Luis Suarez, Doni, Charlie Adam, Jose Enrique, Jordan Henderson, Stewart Downing, Coates
Total Gross fees(approx): £112m

Estimated total annual wages for new signings : £23m per annum

If we assume each player contract is for 5 years, we can then amortise the cost of their transfer fees by dividing them by 5, to give us an annual gross cost for the new signings : –

Annual cost of transfer fees (£112m over 5 years) = £22m

Annual cost of new player wages = £23m

Therefore gross total annual cost of this summer’s transfer activity = £45m

LFC players departed since Jan 2011 and likely to be gone by 31[sup]st[/sup] August

Fernando Torres, Ryan Babel, Jovanovic, Alberto Aquilani, Paul Konchesky, David Ngog, Nabil El Zahr, Danny Pacheco, Ayala, Philip Degen, Joe Cole, Christian Poulsen, Brad Jones

Total estimated gross fees recouped : £72m

Estimated annual wage savings : £32m

Again, if we amortise the fees by the 5 year average contract length, the annual fee recouped figure = c.£14m

Annual wages saved (as above) = £32m

Therefore gross total annual cost of monies recouped this summer = £46m

So, and here’s the big reveal, our true, as near-as-dammit, estimated crudely, yet probably not miles out, best approximation for net spend by LFC this summer is…….wait for it…….(drum roll) …. minus £1m.

By August 31[sup]st[/sup], of the players we will have released, only one contributed to the first team squad in any significant way last season (Fernando Torres). The rest will not have amassed enough premiership starts between them to be equivakent to more than one more player’s worth of loss (Babel, Jovanovic, Konchesky, Ngog, Cole and Poulsen).

Yet on the other side of the assessment, we’ve added arguably 6 players, who are all very likely to fill first 11 positions. That’s half a dozen new first teamers in, with effectively two going the other way, and all for the princely sum of one million pounds.

Source: http://www.theanfiel...ore-moneyballs/


A much clearer understanding and view of our net spend/transfers in/out can be viewed here;
http://www.transferl...-transfers.html

It shows our income/money spent and actual net spend all the way back to Houllier's reign.
None of these sources is as reliable as http://www.lfchistory.net/Transfers/
 

lancashirelad

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Liverpool‘s results this year have been largely average, the win at Norwich aside, but are we really that bad?
How could Liverpool have fallen this far and this fast?

Liverpool have not played as badly to justify our league position. I am confident that we will finish higher than the 13th place we currently occupy. I could argue that we have been on the wrong end of some refereeing decisions. I have also had unfortunate injuries to two of our best players in Lucas and:

To answer the second question I would say that it is the change in style of play still isn't where Rodgers wants it to be. Brendan Rodgers philosophy is clearly effective, just ask Swansea and Barcelona, but doesn't seem to be getting Liverpool yet, the results we so desperately need if we are to climb up the premier league table. I think this system works for Barcelona and Swansea because their players are brought up with it. Liverpool have always passed the ball well but in recent years have relied upon exceptional players rather than strict organization. Sadly, Liverpool’s first team players do not compare to those of 5 to 15 years ago. Looking back I can recall Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard (younger), Arbeloa and a better Torres destroying Man United and challenging very closely for the title. Based on the above I would suggest that along with some signings who can integrate immediately into Liverpool’s first team, like Allen, it will take at least a year or two to get the best out of Liverpool’s current players using the Brendan Rodgers 4-3-3 system. Is the system worth this transitional period? And is Brendan Rodgers really the man to lead Liverpool into the future?
I would say yes and yes! Swansea were amazing last season. The players that are no longer there are at teams like Liverpool, Man City and Spurs. This is no coincidence. Brendan Rodgers has proven his ability to create high quality, technically gifted players, where others have failed. I would give Scott Sinclair as a perfect example of this. Who could have imagined his performance last season? Certainly no television football pundit. The system Swansea used and still use is very effective so long as you have mobile players who can each perform very specific tasks. Take Allen for example. He is essential for protecting the back four and for starting the long passing moves that we came to expect from Swansea last season. This is why he was signed. Rodgers will need a year or two to find or train players to fit all the specific roles needed for his system. Then hopefully because Liverpool are likely to attract better players than Swansea, we should be a much improved version. I am confident that this is the future for Liverpool who, even with a 60,000 seater stadium, could not compete with Man City and Chelsea as far as funds are concerned.

So to answer the question: where will Liverpool finish the season?

I suspect Liverpool will be fighting for a Europa league place this season again. Whether or not we make it will depend on who we sign in January. But as of now I’d settle for the Europa league again and a cup final, don’t care which of the two left, just to get there will be great!

Chelsea, Man City and Man United (in no particular order) will fill the top 3 this season. Fourth will be either Arsenal or Spurs. Liverpool will most likely be competing against Newcastle and Everton for sixth.

If we had this group we'd be top for sure, (well we can dream can't we?) - apologies I couldn't decide on the keeper!

 
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