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Is it a striker we really need, or is it something else...?

No Men in the Box Redux

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I am of the opposite opinion. I agree that Suarez did cause chaos, especially when he drifted out wide but as i see it if he is better when he's out wide wouldn't it be easier and smarter to just get a goalscorer who can make the most of all the chances he creates. That also fills one of the wide areas with someone you just said creates so much space and chances when he is out wide. Someone also mentioned (think it was ISMF) that we are currently converting chances at 7%, lowest in the league i think so surely a true goalscorer that scores at better than 7% is needed.

To me the best front line would be Sterling, new striker, Suarez with Sterling and Suarez constantly swapping. Suarez is always available then if our new striker is injured with Borini as backup and with 3 available strikers we can even try new formations that require 2 strikers with 1 on the bench. If anything the fact that Suarez isn't available next week and we'll be using someone like Yesil kind of shows how badly we need a striker.
So. Moving on from Mac_Red's attempts to dismantle yet another thread.

I don't agree with Suarez as a right forward. I think his best qualities would be diminished if he was shifted out wide. Firstly, he would need to do a lot more defensive duties. Secondly, he would have much more trouble roaming horizontally across the final third which is what makes him so unpredictable now. If he becomes a right forward, first of all, he would be pretty much restricted to moving up and down the right channel and he would only be able to "roam" horizontally or cut inwards when the other striker vacates the space.

I think we can all agree on one thing. The system isn't going to change all too much. And Suarez is one of the hardest working, most versatile, and tricky strikers in the world right now. His ability to pretty much do anything from provide an assist with a perfect lob, poach, score belters, beat three men single handedly and etc. is what makes him such an effective false 9. I think BR knows this and he is consciously building the team around Suarez as a false 9 for that reason. Bringing in a striker that could simply bang in the goals would fail unless the striker was versatile and had a diverse skill set and could operate successfully as a false 9. He can't just be someone who tucks away goals. He would need to be involved in all the interplay like Suarez is now. Unfortunately, strikers that are capable of providing this sort of interplay in Suarez's level are usually worth Falcao or Aguero money.

I agree that we are sort of thin in the striking department because we have no one else other than a young and inexperienced (and currently injured) Borini to replace Suarez in the event of injury or bans. Which is why I think it makes sense why BR is looking at players that can play both roles of wide forward and central like Sturridge and Walcott. Ideally though, if everyone was fit and available, Suarez should be the main man in the false 9 role because his class and abilities is so much above everyone's that everything should flow through him. If he was shifted over to the right, he would be limited to a more one dimensional role and wouldn't be able to do as much as he can now. We're just two top wide forwards away to having a really strong starting XI.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Cant disagree more on the idea of Suarez being forced into a one dimensional role out wide.

Today we sometimes ended up with Sterling, Shelvey and Suarez all on one side or all in middle they were floating they only roughly stayed within their initial positions.

And even when in the middle Suarez puts in his defensive shift.

I really cant agree with anybody who thinks we will somehow lose some of Suarez affect if we move him out wide.

For much the same reason that Real Madrid dont lose anything playing Ronaldo wide even though in the middle he is one of the best traditional centre forwards.

It will all depend on who we can attract.

If we can attract a decent wide player we will keep Suarez central if we can attract a decent central player we will move Suarez wide.

Even if we lose a few goals from Suarez by moving him wide law of averages we are more likely to find a high scoring central forward than a high scoring wide player to offset that difference in Suarez performance levels.
 

No Men in the Box Redux

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Sterling and all the other players are only able to roam into those areas because Suarez has some of the best movement in the league. He is tireless. You can't expect, for instance, if you played Torres up front, that he would do anything remotely like Suarez does for us. Suarez runs circles around defenders and drive them up the wall because you have no idea where he is going to be next. Not only does he create space for others, whenever he gets the ball, he manages to find them with perfect through balls or lobs or he manages to do something dangerous with his own tricks. You can't find many other strikers that can operate on such a level as a false 9.

Fair enough though, I take your point that perhaps Suarez's effect won't be greatly diminished as a right forward. And I agree that it could very largely go down to who we manage to attract. But like I just said, attracting a striker that can do what Suarez does for us right now. That is provide interplay, provide incredibly fluid movement, be extremely hard-working, have the ability to assist and pick out passes from the eye of a needle and etc is going to be really, really hard. Our realistic options in Ba, Huntelaar (not actually realistic but everyones current obsession), or Bony will not be able to do what Suarez does.
 

basil1492

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So. Moving on from Mac_Red's attempts to dismantle yet another thread.

I don't agree with Suarez as a right forward. I think his best qualities would be diminished if he was shifted out wide. Firstly, he would need to do a lot more defensive duties. Secondly, he would have much more trouble roaming horizontally across the final third which is what makes him so unpredictable now. If he becomes a right forward, first of all, he would be pretty much restricted to moving up and down the right channel and he would only be able to "roam" horizontally or cut inwards when the other striker vacates the space.

I think we can all agree on one thing. The system isn't going to change all too much. And Suarez is one of the hardest working, most versatile, and tricky strikers in the world right now. His ability to pretty much do anything from provide an assist with a perfect lob, poach, score belters, beat three men single handedly and etc. is what makes him such an effective false 9. I think BR knows this and he is consciously building the team around Suarez as a false 9 for that reason. Bringing in a striker that could simply bang in the goals would fail unless the striker was versatile and had a diverse skill set and could operate successfully as a false 9. He can't just be someone who tucks away goals. He would need to be involved in all the interplay like Suarez is now. Unfortunately, strikers that are capable of providing this sort of interplay in Suarez's level are usually worth Falcao or Aguero money.

I agree that we are sort of thin in the striking department because we have no one else other than a young and inexperienced (and currently injured) Borini to replace Suarez in the event of injury or bans. Which is why I think it makes sense why BR is looking at players that can play both roles of wide forward and central like Sturridge and Walcott. Ideally though, if everyone was fit and available, Suarez should be the main man in the false 9 role because his class and abilities is so much above everyone's that everything should flow through him. If he was shifted over to the right, he would be limited to a more one dimensional role and wouldn't be able to do as much as he can now. We're just two top wide forwards away to having a really strong starting XI.
I agree totally with the middle paragraph, he is one of the best false 9s. He would also be one of the best wide players and i don't think it would make him one dimensional at all. Even in todays game he spent most of it out wide, he roams a lot as you say but usually he roams out wide and comes in (mainly because he has to, there's nobody to pass to in the box).

Another thing todays game proved was that our wide forwards don't track back so much and change places very often. I noticed Stevie on the left a few times and rarely came back over the half way line (no more than Suarez does really anyway). Suarez drags defenders to him leaving gaps in defense, gaps any good striker could utilise but since Suarez is usually alone except for maybe Sterling on occasion then the move stops.

The biggest 2 concerns though is firstly lack of cover which will show next league game and secondly (more importantly) is our lack of goals. Fair enough Suarez is top scorer just now but his conversion rate this season, up to 2 weeks ago was 11%, it's gone down since then. That's bad, most strikers do better and with all the chances he gets we should score more. With him providing chances we will get more shots and a good striker will convert better. Suarez is great at making chances and decent at taking them, i'd rather have him be great at creating chances for a good striker that is great at scoring. We had 23/24 shots today and scored 1, thats abysmal.

Even if we bring in a good wide forward that provides extra chances for Suarez he will still only convert about 10% going by his current ratio. Say for eg you have Walcott providing 5 chances a game and Suarez converting 10%, 1 every other game. Do you think it would be better having Suarez (better provider than Walcott) provide say 10 chances a game to someone who converts 20%, 2 a game? All this is just my way of looking at it, plenty will disagree btw. The above along with having decent striking cover and the fact that there are some decent strikers going cheap this January has me convinced this is the way to go.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I agree with you Basil.

I also don't see why a new central player would need to be as creative as Suarez is either.

Its great Suarez is creative as well as a goal scorer but looking at our performances week in week out creating more chances sure as hell isn't something thats needed for us.

Flat out we need goals goals goals.

I dont care if we get them by signing a right winger, centre forward, left back or the most prolific goal keeper the game has ever seen.

Traditionally though centre forwards are the easiest ways to add goals to your team.

Even the best wide forwards like Sanchez don't tend to outscore above average centre forwards.
 

Prolix

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The sheer number of chances fluffed by Sterling and Shelvey yesterday would indicate very strongly to me that we need at least two dangerous, goal-scoring wide players more than anything else (especially as it is becoming more clear that, for some reason, Assaidi is not going to be that player anytime soon). I agree with NMITBR 100% that Suárez is best through the middle and should not be restricted in any way. All he needs is more players he can trust.
 

Macedonian_Red

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You know, it would probably be less embarrassing to just admit that they don't exist.
You are correct ... The quotes do not exist ... Werner has never said this: "I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." ... And this: "We know that January is a challenging time and I don't want to say we've got x or y but, hopefully, the fans will be pleased with what we do accomplish." ... The editors on the official site have obviously made up these quotes ...
 

mav79

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Suarez has no problem for the national team when playing with Cavani or Forlan in the centre.He still scores nearly every game. The likes of Lewandowski or Soldado are great in the centre but can move out wide as well. Imo we need a striker who's natural position is in the centre but can interchange with Suarez to move out wide when the opportunity arises.
 

Dane

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We'll confirm the answer to this question after the West Ham game.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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We'll confirm the answer to this question after the West Ham game.
I will confirm it now because of that.

There is absolutely no way any side that wants to be a top side should be going into a league game without a single player who has played as a striker in the league available to them.

Even during the days when we were relying too much on Nando we had Kuyt, Ngog and Babel all ready to play there if he got injured or suspended.

Now we have Borini, who is injured.

The owners have apologised to the fans and manager for allowing this to happen to us over a 6 month stretch.

Yet the posters on this site who use it as a stick to beat the owners with are some of the posters who argue we dont need to fix it by bringing in a striker.

The most bizarre situation Ive ever witnessed as a Liverpool fan.
 

basil1492

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We'll confirm the answer to this question after the West Ham game.
Even if we win this game you have to say it's a sorry state of affairs to have to play one of our 18 year olds or a midfielder. Another thing about this is we are lucky it's a 1 game ban, nobody seems to worry about what would have happened if Suarez was injured or had a red card. We have 6 winnable games coming up but without Suarez for them they all become games we'd be happy to draw. Win or lose at West Ham though we really should have had a striker with some experience for this game and 1 on the bench so in reality we are 2 short. We can manage with 1 though as Borini will soon be back but 1 has to be the bare minimum.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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I agree with you Basil.

I also don't see why a new central player would need to be as creative as Suarez is either.

Its great Suarez is creative as well as a goal scorer but looking at our performances week in week out creating more chances sure as hell isn't something thats needed for us.

Flat out we need goals goals goals.

I dont care if we get them by signing a right winger, centre forward, left back or the most prolific goal keeper the game has ever seen.

Traditionally though centre forwards are the easiest ways to add goals to your team.

Even the best wide forwards like Sanchez don't tend to outscore above average centre forwards.
I may be misremembering, but didn't we have a discussion some weeks ago where you maintained we have enough goals in the squad as it is?
 

basil1492

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Another thing i have been thinking about. I am in my 40s now, supported LFC since the late 70s and I honestly can't think of a time where we couldn't put a striker on the pitch AND one on the bench, we usually had 2 up front and 1 on the bench. Now we can't find one in this game for the team sheet. Does anyone remember any game where we didn't have at least 2 strikers available (or players who had played as a striker before)? This is a genuine question, not trying to pick an argument or anything.
 

Redaido

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Anyone who thinks we dont need another striker is delusional. BR knows we do and watching the team play backs this up. Having a goalscorer up front playing in the central position wont affect suarez's goals or movement as he's not a static player, if you watch his movement he like to run the channels which often leaves nobody in the center, a striker will fix this. As for the Fabio Borini argument 1 goal in 11 appearances dosn't suggest that his return to the team will mean we carry more of a goal scoring threat
 

Macedonian_Red

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Anyone who thinks we dont need another striker is delusional. BR knows we do and watching the team play backs this up. Having a goalscorer up front playing in the central position wont affect suarez's goals or movement as he's not a static player, if you watch his movement he like to run the channels which often leaves nobody in the center, a striker will fix this. As for the Fabio Borini argument 1 goal in 11 appearances dosn't suggest that his return to the team will mean we carry more of a goal scoring threat
Borini has cored 6 in 12 at Swansea, and 10 in 26 at AS Roma, prior to his arrival at LFC ... He is a central forward, but he has never really played at that position for LFC ... I think that he deserves the chance to impress at the position with us, before being dismissed ...
 

Redaido

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Borini has cored 6 in 12 at Swansea, and 10 in 26 at AS Roma, prior to his arrival at LFC ... He is a central forward, but he has never really played at that position for LFC ... I think that he deserves the chance to impress at the position with us, before being dismissed ...
Not dismissing him but his stats and performances dont suggest we should be pinning our hopes on him. He wont be match fit until feb and even if he wasnt injured we'd still need another striker. Having 3-4 attackers capable of scoring goals on a regular basis is essential to get into the top 4 because injuries, suspensions and players falling out of form. for the match against West Ham we have a sub total of 0 (*waits for awkward silence to pass*) I think its reasonable to demand that we need another striker.
 

Gears

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Gerrard should just stay in the penalty box as a striker. We can't afford to carry him in midfield where he's being tempted to run up and down the field like he used to. Those days are long gone.
 

REDSkins

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That is the heat map for Luis Suarez against Chelsea.

Another guy who gets into similar positions in the channels is Antonio Cassano. He can certainly play as a CF and will score some fantastic goals. But arguably he was at his best when working off of Pazzini at Sampdoria.

We need someone whose instincts are as a striker, not a winger. We can sit here and discuss "complete forwards" the likes of Aguero and others, but these players are not growing on trees.

For me the issue here is not about "Suarez out wide" because frankly he will do whatever he wants. Defensive duties are irrelevant as I doubt the likes of Sturridge will be tracking back either.

Rodgers has already signed an excellent player for getting to the posts, and it's Borini. But he is the only one. Which is why right now with him injured, we look ridiculous. We're setting up ghosts.

Frankly, any striker with good instincts and movement is going to score a lot of goals next to Luis. So I'd just sign the best player we possibly can and go from there. Agree a pure striker isn't nearly as ideal so if we can get a versatile forward, even better.

As Rodgers said, he doesnt give a damn what the player is called, as long as he is someone who gets into the box into proper positions to score. That was the idea with Dempsey, despite his other limitations. Right now we have ZERO who do this. Add Borini and we have ONE. Simply unacceptable for a team like Liverpool FC.