Jürgen Klopp: 2018 - 2019

Zinedine Biscan

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Not to cherry-pick one comment from a long/good post, but I think it bears mentioning that City have never successfully defended their PL title. Experience isn't everything.
I know. But I think a good part of the reason United just kept winning the title was that, well, they kept winning it. If you see what I mean.
 

Iluvatar

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I got lambasted for saying we've lost our bottle, I appreciate this isn't a term some like, so I will refrain from using it in this post.

Firstly I'm disappointed to hear him blame the wind - Come on now Jurgen you are far far better than that. Bodgers levels of excuses that is. Why does the wind even become a factor? Is it because we have some weird game plan which is statically pass it around midfield, get nowhere and punt it long for our 5 foot nothing front line to loose duels? We play best when we play pass and move, going long is probably the most anti-version of that around yet away from home this seems our tactic.

Now to my main disappointment, it is that we have a manager that through his history has shown he has some of the biggest cahonies in world football. Yet he is playing it safe, he's done it in the Champions League away, he's done it away in the League. Why? Why be so risk averse? I get we have evolved from the naive heavy metal football of the past, but why have we regressed to banging a different head against the same wall over and over? The definition of insanity - Doing the same failing task but expecting a different result.

Why do I say he's playing it safe? Well the midfield 3 we had on v's Everton was the same tried and trusted, yet stuttering ineffective offensive 3. Now I'm sure people will point to the performance against Napoli, or the 5-0 win v's Watford and there are exceptions to the norm, there always are. My opinion is a midfield 3 that combines any of the following players (Milner, Henderson, Gini, Fabinho) is ok to start a game, get us a platform but it needs to be change and evolve as the game goes on if we aren't creating enough chances.

This is where I think Klopp has disappointed me especially with the away games against Utd and Everton. These are games we should have won, they offered little in the way of attacking us and let's face it our defense is utterly immense. Souness was right yesterday after the match, our midfield is the one our defense our loves, but our attack hates. So find that balance, if you want to start with a workmen like midfield 3 fine, but change it once we know the battle is won.

Yesterday was crying out for a player to pick up the ball in midfield and drive at their defense, Matip literally showed this by running forward 3 times and every single time winning a free kick that gave us an ability to create a set piece chance (if only we didn't hit the first man every time, or hit it too long!) So when he took off Gini for Milner my heart sunk, I love Milner but it was like for like and he introduced a player who is notoriously bad when playing 2 games in short succession. If Keita wasn't fit fair enough but why is he on the bench if he's not? Shaqiri was on the bench also, he seems to have shit on Klopps cornflakes as he is an ever present bench warmer now. It's weird as guess who came on v's Utd and changed the game? Yep our power cube..

I get he doesn't want to lose, but draws are killing us, they are what has allowed City to reign us in and overtake. Its a self-perpetuating cycle and unless we score first early our heads slowly but surely start to drop and everything just doesn't work.

Go down swinging Herr Jurgen, we are with you till the bitter end.

p.s. Bringing on Lallana is basically saying you are happy with a point. Baffling sub that.
 

Foldy

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I got lambasted for saying we've lost our bottle, I appreciate this isn't a term some like, so I will refrain from using it in this post.

Firstly I'm disappointed to hear him blame the wind - Come on now Jurgen you are far far better than that. Bodgers levels of excuses that is. Why does the wind even become a factor? Is it because we have some weird game plan which is statically pass it around midfield, get nowhere and punt it long for our 5 foot nothing front line to loose duels? We play best when we play pass and move, going long is probably the most anti-version of that around yet away from home this seems our tactic.

Now to my main disappointment, it is that we have a manager that through his history has shown he has some of the biggest cahonies in world football. Yet he is playing it safe, he's done it in the Champions League away, he's done it away in the League. Why? Why be so risk averse? I get we have evolved from the naive heavy metal football of the past, but why have we regressed to banging a different head against the same wall over and over? The definition of insanity - Doing the same failing task but expecting a different result.

Why do I say he's playing it safe? Well the midfield 3 we had on v's Everton was the same tried and trusted, yet stuttering ineffective offensive 3. Now I'm sure people will point to the performance against Napoli, or the 5-0 win v's Watford and there are exceptions to the norm, there always are. My opinion is a midfield 3 that combines any of the following players (Milner, Henderson, Gini, Fabinho) is ok to start a game, get us a platform but it needs to be change and evolve as the game goes on if we aren't creating enough chances.

This is where I think Klopp has disappointed me especially with the away games against Utd and Everton. These are games we should have won, they offered little in the way of attacking us and let's face it our defense is utterly immense. Souness was right yesterday after the match, our midfield is the one our defense our loves, but our attack hates. So find that balance, if you want to start with a workmen like midfield 3 fine, but change it once we know the battle is won.

Yesterday was crying out for a player to pick up the ball in midfield and drive at their defense, Matip literally showed this by running forward 3 times and every single time winning a free kick that gave us an ability to create a set piece chance (if only we didn't hit the first man every time, or hit it too long!) So when he took off Gini for Milner my heart sunk, I love Milner but it was like for like and he introduced a player who is notoriously bad when playing 2 games in short succession. If Keita wasn't fit fair enough but why is he on the bench if he's not? Shaqiri was on the bench also, he seems to have shit on Klopps cornflakes as he is an ever present bench warmer now. It's weird as guess who came on v's Utd and changed the game? Yep our power cube..

I get he doesn't want to lose, but draws are killing us, they are what has allowed City to reign us in and overtake. Its a self-perpetuating cycle and unless we score first early our heads slowly but surely start to drop and everything just doesn't work.

Go down swinging Herr Jurgen, we are with you till the bitter end.

p.s. Bringing on Lallana is basically saying you are happy with a point. Baffling sub that.
That's the best post I've seen on here in a long time.
 

Iluvatar

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Shaqiri's been shite pretty much since the first United game and Keita's been ill recently and was showing only marginal signs of improvement prior to that. I don't think Klopp's choices were quite as cut and dried as you're making out.
So why take off Origi? Take off Gini and bring on Firmino and go 4 up top. Play to win. They were there for the taking and by 60 minutes we didn't look like a team who was challenging for the title, we didn't look like we wanted to win from manager down to players. Milner was a safe option, irrespective of how badly he played he was the risk averse substitute, as was Origi for Firmino. We stuttered for 55 minutes, we had a few good chances, but we didn't create a lot. The answer? Basically replace like for like and continue doing the same failing tactics. That for me is hugely disappointing.
 

Plamen

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More excuses from Klopp.He should stop with the excuses and take some blame for our dire form.7 points lead wasted,4 wins from 9 PL matches this year - this is unacceptable.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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So why take off Origi? Take off Gini and bring on Firmino and go 4 up top. Play to win. They were there for the taking and by 60 minutes we didn't look like a team who was challenging for the title, we didn't look like we wanted to win from manager down to players. Milner was a safe option, irrespective of how badly he played he was the risk averse substitute, as was Origi for Firmino. We stuttered for 55 minutes, we had a few good chances, but we didn't create a lot. The answer? Basically replace like for like and continue doing the same failing tactics. That for me is hugely disappointing.
I never like criticising managers for their subs for the simple reason that we're not party to all the data they are when working with the players each day, knowing all about their fitness levels and tactically what they're aiming to achieve, tactics which will have been worked on in the buildup to the game.

It's easy for people watching, with the benefit of hindsight, to say 'he should have done this', but we have no way of knowing if there were some very good reasons behind his choices.

Ultimately we wasted enough good chances to have won the game comfortably, I'm not convinced the selection, tactics or subs were to blame.
 

Noo Noo

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More excuses from Klopp.He should stop with the excuses and take some blame for our dire form.7 points lead wasted,4 wins from 9 PL matches this year - this is unacceptable.
So you expect a team to go through an entire PL season without a dip in form at all?
 

Mascot88

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So you expect a team to go through an entire PL season without a dip in form at all?
I once got 114 points on footy manager, so I don’t think that expectation is is anyway out of kilter with reality.

Admittedly I’d cheated and rigged the game in the editor, by that doesn’t invalidate the point.
 

Notasuperfan

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So you expect a team to go through an entire PL season without a dip in form at all?
You can have a dip in form but you need to show that you are able to dig yourself out of the hole and go on a short run (forget about a long run) of winning games. Right now, it seems that Klopp's refusal to go for the jugular in away games has cost us. He seems to be stuck with a mindset that he has Lovren, Matip, Moreno ,Mignolet and a Henderson at no. 6 all playing together and he has to at least keep a point in away games to prevent losing a point.

What he seemingly slow to realise is that any defender playing next to VVD will look like cannavaro, Robertson is way more tactically aware then Moreno, Alisson Becker is 3 times or even 5 times the GK Mignolet will ever be and Fabinho is an upgraded version ( in terms of defensive positioning and game intelligence) of Henderson at no. 6.

What's more puzzling is that he has stumbled upon Gini being quite good offensively after being freed largely of defensive duties the moment Keita comes on. What does he do for the subsequent games? He never play our best trio together that freed our front 3 after that!

What's more puzzling is his game management under high pressure and stakes. Away games for Klopp seems to really racked up the pressure for him so much that he tends to go back to the safety net of not conceding using a workman like midfield which is weird considering that he has one of the strongest spine that the Club has seen for years which includes Rodgers' best season.
 

Elessar

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IMO Klopp know the squad inside out and know 100% what he must do to improve the squad. He must think short term, long term and what is best for the team now. He must think about what is best for a player this week, next month and next season.

We don't have a clue why he don't play Shaqiri. Maybe the rumour that he is a problem player is true, or maybe not. We don't have a clue about that.

Klopp is one of the best managers in the world and is a manager that put the club first. It isn't only about this season. It is about next season and the season after that and so on. It is a long and short term project.

To get the right balance between short and long term is very difficult. A player could need a week to be 100% fit again after a game. Another could only need a day or two. We don't know how long time a player need.

When it comes down to tactics you can't only use the best players. You must use the players that is best for you and worse for the opposition.

How hard did the players train during the break? If they trained very hard then they won't be that sharp now but will be sharper in April and May.

Only a few examples of the many things a manager must balance when he pick a starting XI and a squad for a game.
 

lfc.eddie

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I don't know why all of a sudden everyone is getting on the manager's case. When someone pointed out that even though the stats looked good but our performance this whole season has been a bit off. When we could only win from an odd goal through penalties won by Salah in December, or last gasped goal, it's been touted as "champions material". When we got a draw out of some of the matches earlier on, it was down to sheer hard work, grinding out a point when some may drop theirs there and so on. Now we are up in arms and being critical over the manager saying the damn wind didn't help us? Well it didn't because we didn't win.

It's never one or two games that loses you the campaign, it's more than that. So far we are in some kind of a funk which to me can only be attributed to them warm weather nonsense. Can never understand it, and if you want to lift the team spirit, can't do it in Melwood? It's a bloody holiday, to me it's pointless. We don't really need team building as our players weren't exactly looking glump then, pretty high spirited if you asked me.

Now for calling out to get Shaqiri in or Keita. Come on. Yes Shaqiri has some kind of cult status after sending Mourinho off, but he wasn't doing so well when he started in his last few games. Keita? All the video clips people been watching him with them pre-season friendlies where he linked up so well with Sturridge is just that, pre-season. I have not seen anything more than that little pass he did against Bournemouth. Other than that, nothing. So what makes everyone think he is going to make an impact against these dirty cunts yesterday? He's been a bit soft in this league so far, we want to break him? Then who else on the bench we would want to call upon? Firmino been sub-standard this season, we all could see it. Origi worked hard but still having some decision making problems.

Can Klopp get us back to winning ways? I sure hope so. Bitching about him not playing so and so, where those so and so didn't exactly set the world alight? Nah, not my cup of tea. The 11 players on the pitch yesterday underperformed. We are better than that, we broke through a few times, we just could not finish. I would rather us bitch about why not train these bunch of jokers proper shots on goal? We need them to finish whenever they have a half chance, or take a fucking shot from outside the box to test the keeper. That to me is far more important than asking why didn't we play Keita or Shaqiri, if none of them take shots or shooting blanks!
 

FilthyBloke

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I have very little criticism for klopp.
We have dropped only 6 points this season to teams outside the top 6. Have lost only one game. And have got 4 points from arsenal and united and got a point at Chelsea as well as winning at spurs.
The domestic cups we sacrificed and I have no problem with that.
In Europe he’s had two finals and currently in knock out stages of champions league.

Substitutions, and I did moan yesterday at them, sometimes don’t work. Other times they do. But only he knows why he doesn’t trust keita and Shaqiri yet. And tbh, a lot of games this season those two players have been gash anyway.

Some will point at the fact that on several games this season, games where we had a chance of extending our lead at the top, we have blown it.
Win at city and we go 10 points clear.
Then we had the chance to go 7 clear but drew. Then could go 5 clear but drew. Etc.....
But that could be the vicious cycle of not having many established winners in our squad. No champions intellect. How to kill the game or be patient enough to win it.

I don’t blame klopp for this.

He’s up against a manager who took over a team of winners and has spent over half a billion quid since.

Id like to see a stronger bench, and maybe after next transfer window we will have one, but as we as a club work like a well run business and not lottery winners, it’s one step at a time.

So for me, I won’t moan at klopp. I don’t always agree with his team selections or substitutions, but I wouldn’t have anyone else in charge of us right now.
 

redbj

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I still play football in the old mans league.

I can handle playing in the cold, rain, hail, boiling heat and anywhere in between.

But the wind really fucks a good game over.

It seems to affect the better teams more.

Don’t listen to the media noise, you want an honest manager? he’s being in part honest.

I don’t think anywhere he mentioned it was the sole reason for our lacklustre display, but it is a factor. We all know it. For some reason we feel the need to be outraged by it, becuase some journo has decided he’s using it as a pathetic excuse....he’s just telling it how it is.
 

Limiescouse

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I don’t think anywhere he mentioned it was the sole reason for our lacklustre display, but it is a factor. We all know it. For some reason we feel the need to be outraged by it, becuase some journo has decided he’s using it as a pathetic excuse....he’s just telling it how it is.
Fans - my god, our first touch was off today. Rarely seen it like that. I wonder why?
Klopp - the wind was horrible today and we didnt deal with it well enough
Fans - pah, excuses excuses excuses.
 

redbj

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Fans - my god, our first touch was off today. Rarely seen it like that. I wonder why?
Klopp - the wind was horrible today and we didnt deal with it well enough
Fans - pah, excuses excuses excuses.
You missed a step

In between the Klopp quote and the fans reaction there’s the;

Media reaction: indignation and scorn over a nothing comment
 

shachart

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I want to be clear, I we are lucky to have Klopp as our manager, long may it last.
He has lead us to 2 finals and now a title race. On both finals, the team played below their standard performance, and they are doing so again now. While I am sure it is not intentionaly, Klopp is not succeding in taking the pressure of the players. His playing Sturridge then drops him for Origi. Shaq and Keita lost their place for Lallana.
This does not help players confidance.
 

Imgoingred

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As much as we'd (and I'd) like the team to play more offensively away from home, and to throw caution to the wind and try to win games... I'd like to point out that we are literally the best defensive team in Europe (may as well say the world) at the moment. To compare it to those known to be extremely tight at the back:

Liverpool - 64 GF 15 GA - 29 games played
Juventus - 55 GF 16 GA - 26 games played
Atletico - 38 GF 17 GA - 26 games played

This is largely in part to how good our back 5 are, but also to how well the midfield cover that back 5. And as they say, defenses win titles. If we go on to win, it will be because of that GA column.

However, given our 2019 away form and current table position... not losing games will not be enough. I suspect our favourable fixture list and our remaining away games will see more positive starting line ups and subs.
 

ILLOK

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This is largely in part to how good our back 5 are, but also to how well the midfield cover that back 5. And as they say, defenses win titles. If we go on to win, it will be because of that GA column.
Yes, the midfield is the proverbial whipping boy at the moment but they've been a key component in allowing us to see out games comfortably.

We need to get the balance right, which primarily means playing ball carriers in the '8' roles rather than Henderson, but it's been an incredibly effective part of our team this season. The current criticism is going way overboard IMO, it's only small tweaks that are needed, not an overhaul.

Chamberlain returning to something like his old self and Keita settling in goes a long way to solving the midfield issues. For games where we haven't got suitable players for the '8' roles reverting back to the 4231 seems to make too much sense to me, even if only for half an hour or so in games like Everton or United when we're pushing for the win.
 

Claymenza

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I still play football in the old mans league.

I can handle playing in the cold, rain, hail, boiling heat and anywhere in between.

But the wind really fucks a good game over.

It seems to affect the better teams more.

Don’t listen to the media noise, you want an honest manager? he’s being in part honest.

I don’t think anywhere he mentioned it was the sole reason for our lacklustre display, but it is a factor. We all know it. For some reason we feel the need to be outraged by it, becuase some journo has decided he’s using it as a pathetic excuse....he’s just telling it how it is.
I'm sure you don't mean to take the piss at Klopp's, but this ain't an old man's game. Klopp's comments are somewhat sarcastic to me because we don't play long balls anyway so what does the wind have to do with it?

Rodgers once blamed the groundsman for ruining our tiki tactics

That said, what someone else mentioned above with midfielders carrying the ball up the midfield is spot on. Henderson and Milner aren't dribblers. Wyjnaldum is but he was anonymous in that game. I wasn't sure why keita wasn't brought on as someone who's an excellent dribbler.

Ox was excellent at this too and our performance dipped as soon as he got injured. Don't be surprised if he plays like a man possessed against bayern.
 

Dane

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This forum is beginning to look like deja vu.
2008/2009 all over again.

Has anyone declared "Klopp out" yet?
 

Hope in your heart

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I'm sure you don't mean to take the piss at Klopp's, but this ain't an old man's game. Klopp's comments are somewhat sarcastic to me because we don't play long balls anyway so what does the wind have to do with it?

Rodgers once blamed the groundsman for ruining our tiki tactics

That said, what someone else mentioned above with midfielders carrying the ball up the midfield is spot on. Henderson and Milner aren't dribblers. Wyjnaldum is but he was anonymous in that game. I wasn't sure why keita wasn't brought on as someone who's an excellent dribbler.

Ox was excellent at this too and our performance dipped as soon as he got injured. Don't be surprised if he plays like a man possessed against bayern.
We actually play long balls quite often. It's one of our ways to surprise opponents, especially those who defend deep and compact. Pass the ball around in midfield, stretch the opposition, force them to come out a bit, and when there is an opening, VVD, Henderson or someone else will suddenly launch a long precise ball into space in front of Salah or Mané. Not saying that this is the 100% of our attacking game, but it definitely is a way to create space for our quick forwards, and strong wind certainly isn't helpful for this.

I don't think it should be used as an excuse as the lads have to adapt to the conditions of course, but it's certainly a valid explanation, and one lethal weapon less for our boys to use, as the more dominant team.
 



Iluvatar

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We actually play long balls quite often. It's one of our ways to surprise opponents, especially those who defend deep and compact. Pass the ball around in midfield, stretch the opposition, force them to come out a bit, and when there is an opening, VVD, Henderson or someone else will suddenly launch a long precise ball into space in front of Salah or Mané. Not saying that this is the 100% of our attacking game, but it definitely is a way to create space for our quick forwards, and strong wind certainly isn't helpful for this.

I don't think it should be used as an excuse as the lads have to adapt to the conditions of course, but it's certainly a valid explanation, and one lethal weapon less for our boys to use, as the more dominant team.
You see I'm not sure this is our tactic, I get the long ball by VVD to Trent is obviously tactical but I find a lot of them are aimless punts which are the result of struggling to get through a packed midfield/defense and we pass it around get nowhere and punt it into the channels.

I think it's the lack of penetrative midfielder, i.e. someone who runs with the ball from deep - Oxlade/Keita etc. That ability to break the first press and forcing their backline to step up (creating space behind) etc.

That's why I think the midfield 3 of Gini, Milner, Henderson doesn't work, and Fabinho to an extent.
 

Noo Noo

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You can have a dip in form but you need to show that you are able to dig yourself out of the hole and go on a short run (forget about a long run) of winning games. Right now, it seems that Klopp's refusal to go for the jugular in away games has cost us. He seems to be stuck with a mindset that he has Lovren, Matip, Moreno ,Mignolet and a Henderson at no. 6 all playing together and he has to at least keep a point in away games to prevent losing a point.

What he seemingly slow to realise is that any defender playing next to VVD will look like cannavaro, Robertson is way more tactically aware then Moreno, Alisson Becker is 3 times or even 5 times the GK Mignolet will ever be and Fabinho is an upgraded version ( in terms of defensive positioning and game intelligence) of Henderson at no. 6.

What's more puzzling is that he has stumbled upon Gini being quite good offensively after being freed largely of defensive duties the moment Keita comes on. What does he do for the subsequent games? He never play our best trio together that freed our front 3 after that!

What's more puzzling is his game management under high pressure and stakes. Away games for Klopp seems to really racked up the pressure for him so much that he tends to go back to the safety net of not conceding using a workman like midfield which is weird considering that he has one of the strongest spine that the Club has seen for years which includes Rodgers' best season.
This is an example of what any manager faces. Fans presume this, that and everything else with very little information to make that judgement. I don't know what Klopp played the team he did against Everton or make the subs he did, I can only comment on the performance which I agree was sub par.

Its a difficult concept to accept the decision making of a person when things didn't quite go to plan but remember your observations are based on 90 minutes on the TV. Klopps decisions were based on a hell of a lot more than that. A lot of faith is needed and some appreciation of what is happening.

We and City are clear of the rest of the league by some margin. That is huge. It is neck and neck and the fact that we are living with City is an achievement in itself. Yes we want more but the margins are so fine. We could end up with 97 points this season. That again is crazy. 97 points and second is beyond bonkers. My point is the battle is a huge and a long one and it should be no surprise to anyone that we are in such a battle especially since our main rival is City. The idea that we could romp away from them over the course of a season, a season where you may have two teams with 90+ points and both may end up in excess of 95 points is just utterly stupid. This race was always going to be close, always nervy and always intense. City bring that because of how they have got where they are. Too many people think that we should be 10 points clear, which while it may have been possible I would be extremely nervous of the inevitable dip that would come during the run in. That could have been even more dangerous.
 

Red Armada

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Klopp has done a masterful job in general and in this season in particular. He has succesfully transformed a high scoring but naive team into a hard pragmatic side that more often than not knows how to win even without performing accordingly. The fact that we are neck and neck with the sky blue mancs is remarkable in itself considering the vast disparity in depth and quality.

That said there's always room for improvement. His subs can be suspect at times as he himself has admitted and it's certain that when he looks back on this season he'll find a lot of mistakes to improve on. If I have one gripe with his management this season, that's the performances on tough away fixtures. Results aren't that bad although just one win isn't ideal. The performances though, with some exceptions, have left a lot to desire.
 

Notasuperfan

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This is an example of what any manager faces. Fans presume this, that and everything else with very little information to make that judgement. I don't know what Klopp played the team he did against Everton or make the subs he did, I can only comment on the performance which I agree was sub par.

Its a difficult concept to accept the decision making of a person when things didn't quite go to plan but remember your observations are based on 90 minutes on the TV. Klopps decisions were based on a hell of a lot more than that. A lot of faith is needed and some appreciation of what is happening.

We and City are clear of the rest of the league by some margin. That is huge. It is neck and neck and the fact that we are living with City is an achievement in itself. Yes we want more but the margins are so fine. We could end up with 97 points this season. That again is crazy. 97 points and second is beyond bonkers. My point is the battle is a huge and a long one and it should be no surprise to anyone that we are in such a battle especially since our main rival is City. The idea that we could romp away from them over the course of a season, a season where you may have two teams with 90+ points and both may end up in excess of 95 points is just utterly stupid. This race was always going to be close, always nervy and always intense. City bring that because of how they have got where they are. Too many people think that we should be 10 points clear, which while it may have been possible I would be extremely nervous of the inevitable dip that would come during the run in. That could have been even more dangerous.
I am not denying it is gonna be tough. However, we should look to capitalise on City's stumbles coz' it is not going to happen very often in this league. If we stumbled once or twice randomly by drawing games we should have won, most supporters are ok with it. In fact, it will bring the team back to Earth. What's not sitting well with some supporters is that our current form doesn't show that it is a bunch of random stumbles but more like a trying to climb a slippery ladder when we may actually have a new unproven Glove ( Keita) and a largely unused Boot ( Shaqiri) that may help us out. We are like hanging on but not going up.
 

treboeth

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
3,810
This forum is beginning to look like deja vu.
2008/2009 all over again.

Has anyone declared "Klopp out" yet?
What has he done for us lately?

Building us back up to where we belong.
Champions League Final.
In the running for the Prem.
Making fans believe.
Reinvigorating the media/other teams fear of us becoming a Force again.

Klopp Out......


And proud to be a German Scouser :well done: