Jadon Sancho (RW) Borussia Dortmund

redfanman

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I know some people don't think things like that are a problem but I'd bet my last pound that Klopp wouldn't be impressed with a video like that. Our success is built on hardwork, teamwork and humility. That video alone wouldn't necessarily rule him out, but it's not a good look at all.

Regardless of how talented a player is we don't need an Instagram superstar added to the mix.
It's funny to see this picture today - Only a couple of hours earlier i was looking at a tweet by someone (possibly the Imam) from a mosque Sadio attends saying how humble he is, driving a regular car there, willing to do any duties such as cleaning toilets etc.

It's also something i noticed a couple of times this season where the tweets by our players tend to be teasing their team mates particularly the youngsters after the Everton game, or making fun of themselves (look at Milner on Robbo in training, Ox with Jones, Robbo on Trent for examples).
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I picked league games because every one counts and is taken seriously, the same can't be said of the cup competitions. If you want to include the CL, I can point you towards a 4-0 win that was quite significant. I'm fairly certain Barcelona wouldn't have won 3-0 at the Nou Camp without Messi and Suarez.

If you want to provide a solid argument that we have actually struggled without Mane or Salah, rather than your theory which is solely based on your perception of individual quality, then feel free to do so. I'm pretty sure our results have remained very impressive without them but I'm prepared to be proven wrong.
It was Mane I listed as we really don't (in my view) have decent alternatives on the left forward position. And the discussion/example I put forward was Barca being able to cope without Messi compared to how well we cope without Mane. Took little while to get round to the challenge, match followed by cooking dinner and whatnot.

Without Mane playing over last 18 months (ignoring league cup, which I'm not sure I agree with because we are talking about our depth here but anyway);

Average ppg of 2.17 (equivalent of an 82 point season) average goals per game scored of 1.67 average goals conceded per game of 0.67.

With Mane;

Average points per game of 2.47 (equivalent of a 94 point season), goals scored per game average of 2.19 and average goals conceded of 0.75.

I will say yet again that this isn't the most effective way of looking at stats, the sample sizes can throw reflective data out of whack.

However as there are only a few games Mane has missed I've looked at the ratings for the players on the Echo for who played left wing in his place. Average score of 6.33 with 7 being the highest and 6 the rest of the time. In most of those games we've got players getting 8s an 9s. Origi played left wing in most of the games.

I'll say again all this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree with me. I just think some of the replies over the last few days have come across quite disrespectful and mocking. We are discussing how to improve a near perfect squad, there really really isn't much wrong with it at all. Any improvements will only ever be marginal but hey, we lost the league by a point last year. Marginal matters. And no matter how well we are doing this year, how well City and others do is out of our hands for 36 games a season. As unbelievably great as we are doing City two years ago would have only been 2 points behind us with a plus 14 better goal difference. If City weren't having such a poor season this would be a real nail biting title chase.
 

jgw_geneseo

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Messi has missed 6 games due to injury this season playing in 20. They drew one and lost one he missed average ppg of 2.17 average gpg scored of 2.67 conceded of 1.33. In games with him average ppg of 2.05 gpg scored of 2.1 and gpg conceded of 1.1. Now I know that's a really ridiculous sample size and everything but I'm just not as convinced our points, goals scored and conceded wouldn't suffer more than that in comparison if we had Mane out for nearly a quarter of our games.
I'm confused. Is the argument being made that when the best player in the world is out injured (take your pick-Messi or Mane that I'm referring to), the team isn't as good? Shocking.

Am I missing something?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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I'm confused. Is the argument being made that when the best player in the world is out injured (take your pick-Messi or Mane that I'm referring to), the team isn't as good? Shocking.

Am I missing something?
That Barca negate that drop off in performances by having four top forwards for their 3 roles. So if Messi was out for a run of 10 games it would be Suarez, Griezmann and Dembele. Still 3 top players. People don't seem to think we can accommodate 4 top level forwards, even though when we had Coutinho we were fine, nobody was "dropped", "cover" or "depth" just they each rested a little here and there, we played all 4 a few times and we could still field a top class front 3 when Coutinho was injured.
 

JibJab

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Let's put aside for the moment the debate over whether we need Sancho. I don't think anyone here is seriously arguing that our club isn't amazing without him. The performances of this team over the last two seasons - from the run to the 18 UCL final through today - has been unprecedented in its brilliance. We've lost one league game in our last 59. There is no club in world football that's been better. So, frankly, we don't need anyone.

Sancho wouldn't be coming here to fill an immediate need. He'd come here as a reinforcement for a front three that looked exhausted today. He'd come here as a rotation forward to afford them any needed rest or time to heal with any potential injuries. He'd come here as a new tool for Klopp to experiment with in a 4231. He'd come here as a longterm starter as well.

If the consensus is that he's a world class player in the making, and he's willing to play that role, then I don't see a reason not to buy him. If Edwards/Klopp would rather target other players, I'll certainly trust their judgment.
 

OzzyKop

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I know some people don't think things like that are a problem but I'd bet my last pound that Klopp wouldn't be impressed with a video like that. Our success is built on hardwork, teamwork and humility. That video alone wouldn't necessarily rule him out, but it's not a good look at all.

Regardless of how talented a player is we don't need an Instagram superstar added to the mix.

This is one of the Main reason i am on the "sancho will not be coming to Liverpool" column, He is not a personality Klopp likes and from his history he is a very difficult person to deal with and mould into a team due to his attitute and disciplines . People still forget how he left Man city.
 

redfanman

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This is one of the Main reason i am on the "sancho will not be coming to Liverpool" column, He is not a personality Klopp likes and from his history he is a very difficult person to deal with and mould into a team due to his attitute and disciplines . People still forget how he left Man city.
Klopp wanted Sancho when he left city though....
 

liver1

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His attitude has come into question at Dortmund multiple times this season. This is a football writers comment of Sancho in November:

Jadon Sancho over the past month:

-Benched vs. Freiburg

-Excluded from the squad vs. Gladbach after returning late from international break

-Didn't play at all vs. Wolfsburg

-Subbed off after 36 minutes vs. Bayern

In addition to this he was benched for a crucial Barcelona CL game as the manager said he was not focused.
 
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Limiescouse

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We've only lost once in the league with or without Mane on the pitch. I think looking at it the way you just did distorts the picture.
Anyway, Barca, despite already spending so much on their forward line that they imbalanced the rest of the side, are now looking to go back into the market for another forward because of the short term loss of a 32 year old with known knee injuries. They seemingly don't think they are as well stocked with suitable options as you do.
 

ILLOK

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Barcelona have spent just shy of £400 million on forwards in the previous two and a half years. Perhaps not the best example to want to emulate.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Barcelona have spent just shy of £400 million on forwards in the previous two and a half years. Perhaps not the best example to want to emulate.
Even if we buy Mbappe we wouldn't come close to that though would we? Our first choice 3 have cost under 100 million and have we spent even 50 million on other forwards under Klopp? Our recruitment choices are world class. And we could "do a Robertson" and buy a player picked out of an unlikely location but turns out to be real quality and who becomes that 4th choice top forward I want on an unbelievable cheap deal (there is still a chance we have done it with Minamino already). Or we could do a Keita or Fabinho style deal of a decent level fee that isn't quite eye watering for a player reasonably well known, turns out to be a real good player and fits us like a glove and shines. Pretty much Sancho and Mbappe are the only ones I can think of that would match or break our transfer record, and I think we would have that level of funds if we wanted to use it and both are good enough to achieve the result I want us to go for (4 top forwards for the front 3). But the end result is what matters not how or who we buy to achieve it. When we had Coutinho, Mane and Firmino tearing up the league and you had asked me which fourth forward I wanted to add I wouldn't have picked Salah, especially not as it meant breaking our transfer record. I trust the recruitment team to get it right however they go about it. It's just people who believe we won't want a top forward adding because we don't have room or don't think it can be an expensive deal that I disagree with.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Anyway, Barca, despite already spending so much on their forward line that they imbalanced the rest of the side, are now looking to go back into the market for another forward because of the short term loss of a 32 year old with known knee injuries. They seemingly don't think they are as well stocked with suitable options as you do.
It'll probably be one in one out with Dembele leaving like when Griezmann arrived and Coutinho left. They tend to have 4 high profile, established, top class forwards at any one time in most of their teams throughout the years if you look on them season by season. That way they've always had room to try and introduce academy hopefuls through and develop them looking for the next homegrown talent. Not saying they've done brilliant at it, their recruitment hasn't been as good as ours, but I think I see a pattern with them that it wouldn't surprise me to see happen here. Other top sides don't seem to care about leaving the room for academy talent and just swamp their forward line with 2 top international calibre choices per position, or at least try to.
 

OzzyKop

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Klopp wanted Sancho when he left city though....
He did Indeed, But he didn't want him to come to us by forcing man city's hands. I don't think he knew him too well although Many knew about his attitude when he was at Watford. He always had a problem with not playing and being on the bench. Not a kloppite Team player me think.
 

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As we always said, if any player comes to Liverpool demanding that the team is built around him, he will never succeed or even come in the first place. The team is built around a style, an attitude, a vision and a common goal. While there are obviously players in the squad who are technically better, that is why you hardly see Klopp changing the style much during the season even with different players in each game. He demands players to adapt to the team not the other way round. So if Sancho was to come, he will come on these terms. As much as I bought Sancho in FM, I just do not see Sancho as our first choice. I believe Klopp might be looking to bring in someone that is able to challenge the front 3, but I do not believe Klopp has Sancho as his first choice, if anything, we tend to shy away from flavours of the week, leaving it to financially reckless fools like Real, PSG, Barca, Man City etc....
 

JustHitMyHead

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Even if we buy Mbappe we wouldn't come close to that though would we? Our first choice 3 have cost under 100 million and have we spent even 50 million on other forwards under Klopp? Our recruitment choices are world class. And we could "do a Robertson" and buy a player picked out of an unlikely location but turns out to be real quality and who becomes that 4th choice top forward I want on an unbelievable cheap deal (there is still a chance we have done it with Minamino already). Or we could do a Keita or Fabinho style deal of a decent level fee that isn't quite eye watering for a player reasonably well known, turns out to be a real good player and fits us like a glove and shines. Pretty much Sancho and Mbappe are the only ones I can think of that would match or break our transfer record, and I think we would have that level of funds if we wanted to use it and both are good enough to achieve the result I want us to go for (4 top forwards for the front 3). But the end result is what matters not how or who we buy to achieve it. When we had Coutinho, Mane and Firmino tearing up the league and you had asked me which fourth forward I wanted to add I wouldn't have picked Salah, especially not as it meant breaking our transfer record. I trust the recruitment team to get it right however they go about it. It's just people who believe we won't want a top forward adding because we don't have room or don't think it can be an expensive deal that I disagree with.
First, there is something about getting a top forward who fits like a glove... and going for a top forward who has a history of going on strike to force a move. Sancho's history and misdemeanors (frequently late for practice) makes him an unlikely target for a record breaking fee.

Mbappe... Klopp has made comments about being too expensive. But I still see him as a slightly more likely option.

IMO... neither too likely at this stage, though. Otherwise, why wait? This is the perfect time to add them if that was what we wanted.

Second, I don't expect us to break our record by buying a top forward under the age of 22 / 23. Nothing is ever fixed in stone but we shouldn't expect our club to pay such a high premium for youth if we are not maximizing that benefit. That is a crucial age for growth and if we are only thinking of rotating him with our front 3 plus a couple others backups... then we should pay a value commensurate for where they are NOW as a player not the level they could be. Or they should otherwise represent good value (e.g., low clause / expiring contract, etc). Because we would not be the best position to give him as much of those opportunities for growth during that critical age so we shouldn't pay max value unless they were worth that much to us right now to begin with.

Gnabry, Thorgan Hazard, Dybala, maybe even Marcus Thuram or Depay (if he has he matured) are probably at the right stage of their career for us to target (but who knows whether they are good enough).
 

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First, there is something about getting a top forward who fits like a glove... and going for a top forward who has a history of going on strike to force a move. Sancho's history and misdemeanors (frequently late for practice) makes him an unlikely target for a record breaking fee.

Mbappe... Klopp has made comments about being too expensive. But I still see him as a slightly more likely option.

IMO... neither too likely at this stage, though. Otherwise, why wait? This is the perfect time to add them if that was what we wanted.

Second, I don't expect us to break our record by buying a top forward under the age of 22 / 23. Nothing is ever fixed in stone but we shouldn't expect our club to pay such a high premium for youth if we are not maximizing that benefit. That is a crucial age for growth and if we are only thinking of rotating him with our front 3 plus a couple others backups... then we should pay a value commensurate for where they are NOW as a player not the level they could be. Or they should otherwise represent good value (e.g., low clause / expiring contract, etc). Because we would not be the best position to give him as much of those opportunities for growth during that critical age so we shouldn't pay max value unless they were worth that much to us right now to begin with.

Gnabry, Thorgan Hazard, Dybala, maybe even Marcus Thuram or Depay (if he has he matured) are probably at the right stage of their career for us to target (but who knows whether they are good enough).
1 I've said multiple times that I have no idea if Sancho is the guy, this thread is just a convenient place to hold most of the discussions about the possibility of a top attacker for a big fee being bought. But like with many players we have bought, Klopp will know better about a players personality than a few media articles written by journalists with pre-set ideas and allegiance's based on information fed to them by parties with motives.

2 I pointed out the numbers a few pages back, ignoring the league cup a top winger playing for us this season could have had just shy the number of starts Salah and Mane have had. That ignores that Salah should have had more rests due to playing with an ankle injury and Mane has been played at absolute maximum capacity (for 3 and a half years now). We've fielded the likes of Origi, Shaqiri, Ox, Lallana wide none of which have been as convincing as we are when we have two players right for the roles there. People keep saying we don't need depth and cover but with the number of games we play a 3rd winger would/could play as much as Salah and Mane and those two would only be rested for a couple of games a season more than they currently are.
 

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2 I pointed out the numbers a few pages back, ignoring the league cup a top winger playing for us this season could have had just shy the number of starts Salah and Mane have had. That ignores that Salah should have had more rests due to playing with an ankle injury and Mane has been played at absolute maximum capacity (for 3 and a half years now). We've fielded the likes of Origi, Shaqiri, Ox, Lallana wide none of which have been as convincing as we are when we have two players right for the roles there. People keep saying we don't need depth and cover but with the number of games we play a 3rd winger would/could play as much as Salah and Mane and those two would only be rested for a couple of games a season more than they currently are.
These paper exercises are not worth...well, the paper they are written on.

Mane and Salah are both world class players - like, ‘top ten in the world’ good. They’ll want to start every game they are realistically available for. Although I’m sure our lads are a bit nicer, look at the cob on that Messi gets when a coach dares to think about rotation at that club.

It’s all good and well writing out how many games a new winger gets here, but which games? When? Does Sancho start a CL quarter final? Or are we talking about playing him against Norwich and Bournemouth?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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These paper exercises are not worth...well, the paper they are written on.

Mane and Salah are both world class players - like, ‘top ten in the world’ good. They’ll want to start every game they are realistically available for. Although I’m sure our lads are a bit nicer, look at the cob on that Messi gets when a coach dares to think about rotation at that club.

It’s all good and well writing out how many games a new winger gets here, but which games? When? Does Sancho start a CL quarter final? Or are we talking about playing him against Norwich and Bournemouth?
Well I looked at actual games we played and how often we played a player other than Salah or Mane on the wing. Could have maybe got more by counting games Firmino didn't play as Mane could start CF and leave a spot on the wing but that gets overly complicated. Just looking at games the likes of Origi, Ox, Shaqiri and Lallana have actually started wide I got up to something like 22 possible starts. Let's ignore some of them for the kids like Elliot in the cups. So even without WANTING to play someone other than Mane or Salah wide (due to questions of quality) Klopp still could have given a new player about 18 starts and sub appearances in their first 6 months to settle here. That's a lot for Klopp with a new player. Then you look at Salah having to play through an ankle injury (up to as many as 5/6 games more he could of been rested for without him minding if we didn't need him so much) or Mane just getting the odd game or two here and there to keep fresh and in form (maybe 2/3 more games starting on the bench or rested, not enough to piss him off) and the new guy could easily have started as much or more than Salah or Mane if he hadn't missed any games due to injury. An important thing to consider as well is how many seasons are we going to get away with playing Salah and Mane nearly every game without major injuries? It'll happen to one or both of them at some point we are already beating the odds on this one.
 

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Richard88

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He did Indeed, But he didn't want him to come to us by forcing man city's hands. I don't think he knew him too well although Many knew about his attitude when he was at Watford. He always had a problem with not playing and being on the bench. Not a kloppite Team player me think.
The same was said about Shaqiri before he joined, and Klopp has settled him down well. No reason he can't do the same with Sancho.
 

liver1

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A recent analysis valued the most expensive players in the world today and the top 5 in order are:

Mbappe, Sterling, Salah, Sancho, Mane.

No club in the world splashes out a huge fee and then benches him. Not even Real Madrid or Barcelona. The only time they bench them is if they failed, but when they come in, they play.

Its just not shrewd business to pay that type of money for a rotation player. What is shrewd is the Minimino transfer which ticked all the right boxes, and largely puts Sancho deal to bed anyway. We now have Origi, Minamino, and Shaqiri, competing for a 10-15 games a year and maybe not even full games at that.
 

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A recent analysis valued the most expensive players in the world today and the top 5 in order are:

Mbappe, Sterling, Salah, Sancho, Mane.

No club in the world splashes out a huge fee and then benches him. Not even Real Madrid or Barcelona. The only time they bench them is if they failed, but when they come in, they play.

Its just not shrewd business to pay that type of money for a rotation player. What is shrewd is the Minimino transfer which ticked all the right boxes, and largely puts Sancho deal to bed anyway. We now have Origi, Minamino, and Shaqiri, competing for a 10-15 games a year and maybe not even full games at that.
It'd be similar to when Barca had Henry, Eto'o, Ronaldinho and Messi or when they had Messi, Villa, Sanchez, Pedro then changed Villa for Neymar and then Sanchez for Suarez.

We want to establish ourselves as the top, dominant team on the planet. Wherever you got that top 5 from isn't based on price bought for so why wouldn't/couldn't we have more than 2 in the top 5? If you did a list of defenders then we would probably have 3 of the top 5 in the world.

And Origi, Shaqiri and Minamino are already up to 38 games (13 starts) this season. Minamino has only been here for 2 and Shaqiri has been either injured or riding the bench (unused at all 9 times) due to his lack of quality/tactically poor fit for the most part too.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Again: is Minamino not the 4th forward that everyone is talking about signing?
He could be. Klopp could have pulled a "Robertson" and end up with another player who is one best in the world in his position for a real low cost. Saying that though Klopp could have also just done a "Shaqiri/Klavan" and got a player (one of the very few in the world I might add) who is able to play like Firmino to finally offer us cover in that false 9 position. Its been pointed out multiple times over the last few seasons just how much we rely on Firmino for our style of attack to work.