Jadon Sancho (RW) Borussia Dortmund

Prolix

Long Time Nemesis™
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
3,244
He could be. Klopp could have pulled a "Robertson" and end up with another player who is one best in the world in his position for a real low cost. Saying that though Klopp could have also just done a "Shaqiri/Klavan" and got a player (one of the very few in the world I might add) who is able to play like Firmino to finally offer us cover in that false 9 position. Its been pointed out multiple times over the last few seasons just how much we rely on Firmino for our style of attack to work.
I agree, but Minamino has played twice as much as a wide forward so far in his career than as a centre forward*, which suggests to me that he is a real option in place of either Mané or Salah as well. As I mentioned previously, his scoring effectiveness has been nearly identical in any of those front 3 positions.

A player who is an improvement on Shaqiri in terms of +talent, +fitness, +greater positional flexibility solves basically all our problems up front, imo.

(*Another way of saying this is that he's played roughly the same number of games in each of the front three positions.)
 

liver1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
2,145
It'd be similar to when Barca had Henry, Eto'o, Ronaldinho and Messi or when they had Messi, Villa, Sanchez, Pedro then changed Villa for Neymar and then Sanchez for Suarez.

We want to establish ourselves as the top, dominant team on the planet. Wherever you got that top 5 from isn't based on price bought for so why wouldn't/couldn't we have more than 2 in the top 5? If you did a list of defenders then we would probably have 3 of the top 5 in the world.

And Origi, Shaqiri and Minamino are already up to 38 games (13 starts) this season. Minamino has only been here for 2 and Shaqiri has been either injured or riding the bench (unused at all 9 times) due to his lack of quality/tactically poor fit for the most part too.
Henry was in to replace Ronaldinho as he started to fade. Henry started. So did Neymar, so did Suarez, they didnt start life on the bench as an option.

Barcelona did not pay record fees for Neymar and Suarez and use them as rotation.

In the league Origi has made 3 starts, Shaq has 2 starts. Origi has 1 start in the CL against Genk and 0 for Shaqiri.
 

Iluvatar

Allez (x6)
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
9,275
I agree, but Minamino has played twice as much as a wide forward so far in his career than as a centre forward*, which suggests to me that he is a real option in place of either Mané or Salah as well. As I mentioned previously, his scoring effectiveness has been nearly identical in any of those front 3 positions.

A player who is an improvement on Shaqiri in terms of +talent, +fitness, +greater positional flexibility solves basically all our problems up front, imo.

(*Another way of saying this is that he's played roughly the same number of games in each of the front three positions.)
And also forgetting (not you) that you move Minamino out wide, Mane or Salah can play the false #9 as well. In fact Salah is typically our most forward player in most games.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,181
I agree, but Minamino has played twice as much as a wide forward so far in his career than as a centre forward*, which suggests to me that he is a real option in place of either Mané or Salah as well. As I mentioned previously, his scoring effectiveness has been nearly identical in any of those front 3 positions.

A player who is an improvement on Shaqiri in terms of +talent, +fitness, +greater positional flexibility solves basically all our problems up front, imo.

(*Another way of saying this is that he's played roughly the same number of games in each of the front three positions.)
As I said Minamino is currently an unknown in terms of how good he will be for us, he may not be any better wide than Shaqiri or Firmino. Klopp has already said he is more suited, skill wise, for the central role. Just because he played wide at his last club doesn't mean Klopp wants to use him there (although I expect he will be a lot for remainder of this season due to the limitations or poor fits of the other options whether he is wonderful there or just competent). Wijnaldum was playing as a winger before Klopp bought him but I don't think hes yet to play him wide here. Has he? The job Klopp wants from his wide options is more in line and skillset of a centre forward with lightning pace.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,181
Henry was in to replace Ronaldinho as he started to fade. Henry started. So did Neymar, so did Suarez, they didnt start life on the bench as an option.

Barcelona did not pay record fees for Neymar and Suarez and use them as rotation.

In the league Origi has made 3 starts, Shaq has 2 starts. Origi has 1 start in the CL against Genk and 0 for Shaqiri.
They had the quality and numbers for what they needed, which was to be a world dominant side. I don't know why you're saying "rotation". Who is our rotation CB out of Matip and Gomez? Who is our rotation CM out of Henderson and Wijnaldum? We have real decent strength in depth, options and quality at CB and CM to cope with the 60 odd games we are playing. We don't in attack.

In the league we have also played the likes of Ox further forward on the wing (hasn't been half as effective there as in midfield). Or switched to 4231 to use more midfielders and less forwards when we are tactically more dangerous and convincing in 433. We've also been playing Mane more than we should have without enough rests and playing Salah through an ankle injury and spotty form. We haven't had wide options good enough to give Klopp the kind of "selection headache" managers love to have and we have in other areas of the pitch. So there hasn't been as much rotation as there could and maybe should have been.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,181
By the way when Barca signed Neymar and later Suarez in both seasons Pedro (4th choice) started more matches than either of the two superstar signings. It's about depth, you'll use your 4th choice as much or more than some of your first 3 when you're playing these mega seasons and trying to win everything in sight.
 

Zinedine Biscan

Spreading the word of St Igor
Moderator
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
24,394
As I said Minamino is currently an unknown in terms of how good he will be for us, he may not be any better wide than Shaqiri or Firmino. Klopp has already said he is more suited, skill wise, for the central role. Just because he played wide at his last club doesn't mean Klopp wants to use him there (although I expect he will be a lot for remainder of this season due to the limitations or poor fits of the other options whether he is wonderful there or just competent). Wijnaldum was playing as a winger before Klopp bought him but I don't think hes yet to play him wide here. Has he? The job Klopp wants from his wide options is more in line and skillset of a centre forward with lightning pace.
To be honest, my read of Klopp's comment, which I think you're referring to, was that he played centrally against Everton because he's most comfortable there, and it being his first game for us with limited training sessions under his belt that made sense. Klopp went on to mention how he can also play in a wide variety of other positions, including out wide, as a no10 or as a second-striker, so my takeaway from that is certainly that he'd be looking to use him across multiple positions.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,181
To be honest, my read of Klopp's comment, which I think you're referring to, was that he played centrally against Everton because he's most comfortable there, and it being his first game for us with limited training sessions under his belt that made sense. Klopp went on to mention how he can also play in a wide variety of other positions, including out wide, as a no10 or as a second-striker, so my takeaway from that is certainly that he'd be looking to use him across multiple positions.
Yep and CF, Second-Striker and number 10 are the ones I think we will see him be more comfortable. He doesn't seem to fit the mould of a "Salah/Mane" style winger for me, although he might be closer than Origi and Shaqiri. Anyway I am not writing anyone off yet, as I've said he could replicate the kind of unexpected success of Robertson. But till he does I'll feel we will need a better 4th choice than we currently seem to have.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
16,227
They had the quality and numbers for what they needed, which was to be a world dominant side.
I am not sure I really understand the arguments people are trying to make anymore. However...the only year they had all 4 of them on their books they finished 3rd in a two team league and their CL winning manager got the sack. The following year, the point at which they did become a dominant side, they did it after having sold one of them and used the mighty Bojan as the 4th option. Bojan...a guy who didn't even look any more talented than his Stoke team mates.

Barca have at times had a wealth of attacking talent to call upon, with some of it forced to sit on the bench. However, it has rarely coincided with the periods when they were dominant though. I don't know that you can demonstrate a cause and effect relationship, but I think most would agree that their desire to acquire shiny objects for their forward line has directly contributed to the fucked upedness of their squad in recent season.
 
Last edited:

OzzyKop

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
54
The same was said about Shaqiri before he joined, and Klopp has settled him down well. No reason he can't do the same with Sancho.
13.5 Mill Vs ~150 Mill .... the gamble is very risky. Klopp will not bring anyone expensive to us unless he is 110% sure.
 

Richard88

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
Messages
648
13.5 Mill Vs ~150 Mill .... the gamble is very risky. Klopp will not bring anyone expensive to us unless he is 110% sure.
Sancho isn't going to cost €150m euros, let alone £150m. The prices mooted have been in euros (eg. €120m) which in pounds is under £100m. That figure is also the asking price, rather than what will likely be the agreed final price. When you also factor in that performance bonuses will be a large chunk of that it's not that extravagant compared to typical transfer business.
 

liver1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
2,145
They had the quality and numbers for what they needed, which was to be a world dominant side. I don't know why you're saying "rotation". Who is our rotation CB out of Matip and Gomez? Who is our rotation CM out of Henderson and Wijnaldum? We have real decent strength in depth, options and quality at CB and CM to cope with the 60 odd games we are playing. We don't in attack.

In the league we have also played the likes of Ox further forward on the wing (hasn't been half as effective there as in midfield). Or switched to 4231 to use more midfielders and less forwards when we are tactically more dangerous and convincing in 433. We've also been playing Mane more than we should have without enough rests and playing Salah through an ankle injury and spotty form. We haven't had wide options good enough to give Klopp the kind of "selection headache" managers love to have and we have in other areas of the pitch. So there hasn't been as much rotation as there could and maybe should have been.
Both Matip and Gomez rotate, as do Hendo and Wijnaldum. We wont rotate Salah and Mane anymore than we will rotate Van Dijk or Robertson or Alisson. These core players just get rested ever so often.

Sancho wouldnt start. The only time he would start would be to do what Origi does now. Come on as sub, come in when Salah or Mane need a rest and make up the numbers in cup games.

The difference lies in the price paid. No one pays that type of money and benches them they should be in the first team, at least from the beginning.
 
Last edited:

liver1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
2,145
By the way when Barca signed Neymar and later Suarez in both seasons Pedro (4th choice) started more matches than either of the two superstar signings. It's about depth, you'll use your 4th choice as much or more than some of your first 3 when you're playing these mega seasons and trying to win everything in sight.
When Suarez came in Pedro started 15 games and that was because Suarez was banned for the first 8 games of the season for biting. Pedro left the following season. When Henry arrived Ronadinho left shortly after. Neymar arrived the same season David Villa left.
 

ILLOK

In the Danger Zone.
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
17,148
When Suarez came in Pedro started 15 games and that was because Suarez was banned for the first 8 games of the season for biting. Pedro left the following season. When Henry arrived Ronadinho left shortly after. Neymar arrived the same season David Villa left.
Yes, Barcelona's best sides in recent memory often had players like Pedro (young and unproven), Bojan, Afellay on the bench. Not a big '4'th choice signing.
 

liver1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Messages
2,145
Essentially Barcelona spent big when they had to replace players. Out with the old, in with the new.

Mane is probably the 2nd best forward in the world right now. Salah is top 5 alongside Sterling and Ronaldo and is a goal machine with 64 goals in 92 games. They are at the height of their powers and wont be rotated like Wijnaldum is.

If anything our position and strength probably lends itself more to us blooding a youngster like Barca used to do all the time off their Masia Academy like we maybe doing with Jones. The time to buy Sancho was 2 years ago before he became the current Sancho who dont forget is still only 19 and has had 1 good year.
 

Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
3,350
His attitude has come into question at Dortmund multiple times this season. This is a football writers comment of Sancho in November:

Jadon Sancho over the past month:

-Benched vs. Freiburg

-Excluded from the squad vs. Gladbach after returning late from international break

-Didn't play at all vs. Wolfsburg

-Subbed off after 36 minutes vs. Bayern

In addition to this he was benched for a crucial Barcelona CL game as the manager said he was not focused.
Good lad, keeping the price down a bit for us!

In the video clip someone else posted, not my bag, and I don’t like the ostentatious display of wealth. But on the other hand it’s innocent enough - young lad with money, on holiday, seeing the sights of Dubai. People of his generation live their lives via social media. No big deal.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
16,227
Good lad, keeping the price down a bit for us!

In the video clip someone else posted, not my bag, and I don’t like the ostentatious display of wealth. But on the other hand it’s innocent enough - young lad with money, on holiday, seeing the sights of Dubai. People of his generation live their lives via social media. No big deal.
Did you hear the song?

Jesus, I sound like a grandpa, but still.
 

nobluff

Official TIA Match Thread Starter
Joined
Oct 26, 2007
Messages
2,041
Good lad, keeping the price down a bit for us!

In the video clip someone else posted, not my bag, and I don’t like the ostentatious display of wealth. But on the other hand it’s innocent enough - young lad with money, on holiday, seeing the sights of Dubai. People of his generation live their lives via social media. No big deal.
I think its an incredibly big deal. In my opinion it gives a huge amount of insight into the players character. I think Jurgen takes squad harmony extremely seriously, so I dont think this is something he would look favorably at, and I doubt it wouldn't be a big deal. I am struggling to think of a player that posts these sorts of things on social media (Im sure a few do exist), that isn't trouble (Pogba, Lindgard). Look at that, Man I players, he will fit right in.
 

OzzyKop

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
54
Sancho isn't going to cost €150m euros, let alone £150m. The prices mooted have been in euros (eg. €120m) which in pounds is under £100m. That figure is also the asking price, rather than what will likely be the agreed final price. When you also factor in that performance bonuses will be a large chunk of that it's not that extravagant compared to typical transfer business.
Once Sancho is for sale you will find many clubs bidding for him Including the likes of his boyhood supported club Chelsea and his price will shoot up to 150 Mill pounds, also remember we have to beat Any man city buy back matching offer and you can bet they will get involved. Do not expect anything less than 150 Mill pounds for him, 150 Mill is nothing these days for 19/20 Years old upcoming player who is probarly top 5 talent in the world at the moment. No chance we would get him for 100 Million Pounds if he is on the market remember he is english so Man city would just thrown an extra 30-40 Million pounds just for that since they are desperate english players to balance the foreign players limit quota. something we currently are blessed with.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,181
Essentially Barcelona spent big when they had to replace players. Out with the old, in with the new.

Mane is probably the 2nd best forward in the world right now. Salah is top 5 alongside Sterling and Ronaldo and is a goal machine with 64 goals in 92 games. They are at the height of their powers and wont be rotated like Wijnaldum is.

If anything our position and strength probably lends itself more to us blooding a youngster like Barca used to do all the time off their Masia Academy like we maybe doing with Jones. The time to buy Sancho was 2 years ago before he became the current Sancho who dont forget is still only 19 and has had 1 good year.
Ok I'm a Liverpool fan but let's face it since around 2005ish Barcelona were the dominant side in the sport. They frequently played the best football whilst winning or competing for everything. In recent years they've really started to decline as a force as bad decision after bad decision has been made in the transfer market. But in that 15 year period they've won 9 league titles, 6 Spanish cups and 4 Champions Leagues.

If we win 9 league titles and 4 Champions Leagues over the next 15 years you're damn straight I'm considering us the best team in the world throughout that time. Especially if we are famous as the team that plays the best football during that time too.

During that time up front they've always had the occasional squad depth style players and room for academy graduates to be tried out and that's something I'd like to see here, not a City or Real style 2 top international players for each position and then wonder why your academy talent makes names for themselves elsewhere and has to be signed back.

At the moment their "big 4" are;

Messi, Suarez, Griezmann, Dembele
Messi Suarez, Coutinho, Dembele
Messi, Suarez, Neymar, Turan
Messi, Suarez, Neymar, Pedro
Messi, Neymar, Sanchez, Pedro
Messi, Villa, Sanchez, Pedro
Messi, Villa, Pedro, Bojan
Messi, Ibrahimovic, Henry, Pedro
Messi, Henry, Eto'o, Gudjohnsen
Messi, Henry, Eto'o, Ronaldinho/Gudjohnsen
Messi, Eto'o, Ronaldinho, Gudjohnsen
Ronaldinho, Messi, Eto'o, Larsson.

Not saying it's always worked out well and sometimes they've given prominent roles to their best academy graduates and it's worked ok (Pedro) or they've flopped (Bojan). They've sometimes clogged up their attack with one or two too many journey men for a season here or there. But its generally speaking a balance that works. It's their recruitment that has led to their recent decline.

The balance is, when you want to be a dominant side, win or compete for every trophy, play world famous good football but still bring through academy kids.

Option 1: 2 top international talents per position and utilise loans and buy back deals with the academy kids (what Real traditionally try to do).

Option 2: Have an amazing starting line up with players limited as "cover" players backing them up, never good enough to challenge the starters and due to their limitations the best from the academy will always be able to challenge for chances. The issue with this is your success is still 100% dependent on your starting attackers staying fit, and if you have too many cover players you may not get much playing time left for your academy kids.

Option 3: 4 top players for your front 3, maybe one or two cover options and then lean on the academy kids, giving them real playing time opportunities to fill out your squads and numbers. This is what Barca have seemed to try and do. Its proven that it can achieve all the points you want to hit (playing style, success/trophies, academy prospects getting the chance to impress/develop) over a sustained period that didn't work here and there but providing the teams recruitment is spot on it can work.

This is all just my opinion but I like option 3. I get frustrated by seeing multiple Origi, Shaqiri, Lallana style players used when one real good player could cover most of that playing time at a better quality level and the rest can be given to academy kids to see if they've got the ability to make it. What had done Barcelona has been their recruitment choices (we've been shit hot on that so far), long term planning/strategy (yet again we are great) and panic buying (don't see Klopp and the team doing that).

Hope I've explained my opinion/view point better now. Others can feel free to disagree it is only an opinion.
 

Speckydodge

TIA Squad Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
2,718
Once Sancho is for sale you will find many clubs bidding for him Including the likes of his boyhood supported club Chelsea and his price will shoot up to 150 Mill pounds, also remember we have to beat Any man city buy back matching offer and you can bet they will get involved. Do not expect anything less than 150 Mill pounds for him, 150 Mill is nothing these days for 19/20 Years old upcoming player who is probarly top 5 talent in the world at the moment. No chance we would get him for 100 Million Pounds if he is on the market remember he is english so Man city would just thrown an extra 30-40 Million pounds just for that since they are desperate english players to balance the foreign players limit quota. something we currently are blessed with.
How on earth is 150 Mill nothing these days when it's a figure that's only ever been seen spent on a player once in transfer history?
 

OzzyKop

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
54
How on earth is 150 Mill nothing these days when it's a figure that's only ever been seen spent on a player once in transfer history?
Joao felix went for 113 Million pounds to ATL madrid and i do not think he is as good as Sancho, For an english player who will be in high demand for English teams with cash to spare There is no way anything under 150 Million pounds will get Sancho to put pen on paper. But i guess only time will prove to us who is right wait till he is officially on the market and watch the auction starts. He is 19 years old 5-6 years younger than sterling with a potential to be better than him in few years overall as he is a better finisher than him already.
 

OzzyKop

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
54
Hes also not a top 5 talent in the world.

He is already valued @ 145 million pounds (168 Million Euro) wait till he is on the market and the will bidding starts and you can easily add another 20-30 Million pounds once the hammer strikes.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
13,181

He is already valued @ 145 million pounds (168 Million Euro) wait till he is on the market and the will bidding starts and you can easily add another 20-30 Million pounds once the hammer strikes.
It strikes me that you're not really that familiar with how these things tend to work. Dortmund have put out the understanding in the media that they want €120 million. That's their starting point in the haggle not a sticker price, you never start on the price you'll accept you don't leave any room to negotiate. Its almost certainly not going to go above that, when a club has successfully negotiated a deal that meets what they want/accept (including some as performance clauses) other clubs will then offer similar deals. Then the clubs throw money at the player and agent (unless he has already made up his mind which club he will go to then the others are wasting their time) to persuade them to move there. When there is a hot property on the market the selling club may benefit a little here and there in the bidding but it's mostly the player and agent who have to be persuaded. As an example when Kagawa was being sold by Dortmund they hoped for a high price and a lot of teams would have offered him high wages, but he wanted United so Dortmund had to accept what United were willing to pay. When Anzi sold Willian we were hoping we could negotiate a cheaper deal than they wanted but Tottenham (flush with the Bale money) met the asking price, he was literally doing a medical there when Chelsea matched the Spurs bid and offered more money to the player and he switched to them instead. It's not the selling club that win in those situations it's the player and agent because they get to choose the deal that's best for them, usually the one that pays most. We don't get into that auction process. Klopp calls the player, sees if they really are motivated to come and, if they are, then we agree reasonable wages whilst they reject other interest. But it's very rare the selling club benefits from a bidding war, they just match each others bids, roughly, then offer more to the player to get them to choose them. Only "bidding war" I can really think of, and was very rare because of how it happened, was United offering 20 million above price on Pogba to scare off the opposition. They did that because, even though he was willing to go there on the mega wages they were offering there were much better options out there. But that was really unusual, United were extremely desperate to make a statement.
 

Jaytinho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
237
It strikes me that you're not really that familiar with how these things tend to work. Dortmund have put out the understanding in the media that they want €120 million. That's their starting point in the haggle not a sticker price, you never start on the price you'll accept you don't leave any room to negotiate. Its almost certainly not going to go above that, when a club has successfully negotiated a deal that meets what they want/accept (including some as performance clauses) other clubs will then offer similar deals. Then the clubs throw money at the player and agent (unless he has already made up his mind which club he will go to then the others are wasting their time) to persuade them to move there. When there is a hot property on the market the selling club may benefit a little here and there in the bidding but it's mostly the player and agent who have to be persuaded. As an example when Kagawa was being sold by Dortmund they hoped for a high price and a lot of teams would have offered him high wages, but he wanted United so Dortmund had to accept what United were willing to pay. When Anzi sold Willian we were hoping we could negotiate a cheaper deal than they wanted but Tottenham (flush with the Bale money) met the asking price, he was literally doing a medical there when Chelsea matched the Spurs bid and offered more money to the player and he switched to them instead. It's not the selling club that win in those situations it's the player and agent because they get to choose the deal that's best for them, usually the one that pays most. We don't get into that auction process. Klopp calls the player, sees if they really are motivated to come and, if they are, then we agree reasonable wages whilst they reject other interest. But it's very rare the selling club benefits from a bidding war, they just match each others bids, roughly, then offer more to the player to get them to choose them. Only "bidding war" I can really think of, and was very rare because of how it happened, was United offering 20 million above price on Pogba to scare off the opposition. They did that because, even though he was willing to go there on the mega wages they were offering there were much better options out there. But that was really unusual, United were extremely desperate to make a statement.
Agreed. The fee quoted to the media sets the threshold for negotiation. No way in hell it goes over 120m
 

Chewbazza

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2010
Messages
9,623
Ok I'm a Liverpool fan but let's face it since around 2005ish Barcelona were the dominant side in the sport. They frequently played the best football whilst winning or competing for everything. In recent years they've really started to decline as a force as bad decision after bad decision has been made in the transfer market. But in that 15 year period they've won 9 league titles, 6 Spanish cups and 4 Champions Leagues.

If we win 9 league titles and 4 Champions Leagues over the next 15 years you're damn straight I'm considering us the best team in the world throughout that time. Especially if we are famous as the team that plays the best football during that time too.

During that time up front they've always had the occasional squad depth style players and room for academy graduates to be tried out and that's something I'd like to see here, not a City or Real style 2 top international players for each position and then wonder why your academy talent makes names for themselves elsewhere and has to be signed back.

At the moment their "big 4" are;

Messi, Suarez, Griezmann, Dembele
Messi Suarez, Coutinho, Dembele
Messi, Suarez, Neymar, Turan
Messi, Suarez, Neymar, Pedro
Messi, Neymar, Sanchez, Pedro
Messi, Villa, Sanchez, Pedro
Messi, Villa, Pedro, Bojan
Messi, Ibrahimovic, Henry, Pedro
Messi, Henry, Eto'o, Gudjohnsen
Messi, Henry, Eto'o, Ronaldinho/Gudjohnsen
Messi, Eto'o, Ronaldinho, Gudjohnsen
Ronaldinho, Messi, Eto'o, Larsson.

Not saying it's always worked out well and sometimes they've given prominent roles to their best academy graduates and it's worked ok (Pedro) or they've flopped (Bojan). They've sometimes clogged up their attack with one or two too many journey men for a season here or there. But its generally speaking a balance that works. It's their recruitment that has led to their recent decline.

The balance is, when you want to be a dominant side, win or compete for every trophy, play world famous good football but still bring through academy kids.

Option 1: 2 top international talents per position and utilise loans and buy back deals with the academy kids (what Real traditionally try to do).

Option 2: Have an amazing starting line up with players limited as "cover" players backing them up, never good enough to challenge the starters and due to their limitations the best from the academy will always be able to challenge for chances. The issue with this is your success is still 100% dependent on your starting attackers staying fit, and if you have too many cover players you may not get much playing time left for your academy kids.

Option 3: 4 top players for your front 3, maybe one or two cover options and then lean on the academy kids, giving them real playing time opportunities to fill out your squads and numbers. This is what Barca have seemed to try and do. Its proven that it can achieve all the points you want to hit (playing style, success/trophies, academy prospects getting the chance to impress/develop) over a sustained period that didn't work here and there but providing the teams recruitment is spot on it can work.

This is all just my opinion but I like option 3. I get frustrated by seeing multiple Origi, Shaqiri, Lallana style players used when one real good player could cover most of that playing time at a better quality level and the rest can be given to academy kids to see if they've got the ability to make it. What had done Barcelona has been their recruitment choices (we've been shit hot on that so far), long term planning/strategy (yet again we are great) and panic buying (don't see Klopp and the team doing that).

Hope I've explained my opinion/view point better now. Others can feel free to disagree it is only an opinion.
Disagree.

Your post only serves to back up the issues to be faced when trying to maintain 4 players in 3 positions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.be...o-admits-being-unhappy-at-barcelona/46688/amp

"It is clear that I am having a tough time to find a place in the team at the moment. I have had few chances to play this season. - Pedro

https://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spa...gudjohnsen-i-will-most-likely-leave-barcelona

"I do not understand why my status [within the team] changes this suddenly because I thought I was doing well. This is difficult to swallow.

https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/bojan-senior-unhappy-with-barcelona-s-treatment-of-son

"Sometimes, Ronaldinho was on the bench and Bojan starts. You can imagine, eh? Not easy. It became very difficult. He wasn't welcomed in by everyone.

"[Pep] Guardiola didn't give him continuity. In the Copa del Rey, Bojan was the top goalscorer for Pep.

"In La Liga, he could score one or two goals, but then not play again for weeks. It is very curious.

"In the title run-in in 2010, he kept [Zlatan] Ibrahimovic on the bench. Bojan played, scoring at Sevilla and Tenerife, and they were decisive goals. Then, when the season ended, they signed David Villa."


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.em...eds-manager-like-klopp-again-tim-vickery/amp/

The 26-year-old currently cannot get into Barca’s starting XI because Ernesto Valverde has decided he isn’t suitable for the midfield three, with Ousmane Dembele, Lionel Messi and Luis Suarez the starting forwards.

There are reports this season of both Griezmann and Dembele are unhappy.

I'd argue Barca's success has more to do with have the best player in the world for the last decade and the rest of the team packed with talent, than because they use a 4th forward.

As good as we are at recruitment and planning, that doesn't make it any easier to keep 4 people happy in 3 positions, unless you are signing Minamino types instead of the Sancho's of this world.
 

OzzyKop

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
54
It strikes me that you're not really that familiar with how these things tend to work. Dortmund have put out the understanding in the media that they want €120 million. That's their starting point in the haggle not a sticker price, you never start on the price you'll accept you don't leave any room to negotiate. Its almost certainly not going to go above that, when a club has successfully negotiated a deal that meets what they want/accept (including some as performance clauses) other clubs will then offer similar deals.
It is a starting point if only one club is interested, at €120 million you will find that at least 10 clubs in the top 5 league will be really interested and then it becomes a bidding option whether the price goes higher or personal terms with player is more lucrative eg higher wages which i can not see us accommodating due to Klopp Team harmony structure. For €120 million even club like Leicester will be in it.

Then the clubs throw money at the player and agent (unless he has already made up his mind which club he will go to then the others are wasting their time) to persuade them to move there. When there is a hot property on the market the selling club may benefit a little here and there in the bidding but it's mostly the player and agent who have to be persuaded.
Not really there must be a compromise, agent and players can not dictate fully where they want to go see pogba and probably a lot of tottenham players for this, If Man city offers 150 mil pounds and he wants to go to Chelsea and they only offering 100 Mil the club might just keep him till either chelsea match the offer or he gives in and join Man city, the alternative is run his contract up and hope he does not get an injury where he will be looking at a reduced wage and contract offer or even worse those clubs that were intrested have moved on in getting him. you tend to forget the coutinho saga we did not let him leave to barcelona till they coughed up what we wanted for him or else he was likely looking at a lot of time on the bench.


As an example when Kagawa was being sold by Dortmund they hoped for a high price and a lot of teams would have offered him high wages, but he wanted United so Dortmund had to accept what United were willing to pay. When Anzi sold Willian we were hoping we could negotiate a cheaper deal than they wanted but Tottenham (flush with the Bale money) met the asking price, he was literally doing a medical there when Chelsea matched the Spurs bid and offered more money to the player and he switched to them instead.
Which proves my point players tend to go to who ever offer the highest money, Man Utd offered the highest Fee for Kagwa which in dortmund case they do not care about personal terms like wages, as did Chelsea with Willian. The point here is dortmund is not going to offer cheaper price because Sancho wants to go such a club they will tell Sancho and his agent you can provide this discount when you negotiate your persoanl terms like wages bonuses etc with the club to make it happen. Example say Chelsea offer 100 Mil pounds while Man city is offering 150 Mil and both offering a wage of 300k a week but sancho wants to go chelsea, dortmund will turn around and tell him to have chelsea offer 150 Mil and ask for 150k-200k a week plus few bonuses discount to make it happen.

It's not the selling club that win in those situations it's the player and agent because they get to choose the deal that's best for them, usually the one that pays most. We don't get into that auction process. Klopp calls the player, sees if they really are motivated to come and, if they are, then we agree reasonable wages whilst they reject other interest.
I disagree if dortmund get an offer for 150 Million pound for him that will be their starting point, What if he wants to go to his childhood club watford and they can only offer 10 Mill you telling me they can bend dortmund arms and he gets what he wants? This was similar to what happened to coutinho no one could believe what we were asking for and he even started to protest in his own way but we stuck our ground and got the money. Players understands that when you sign for a club 4 or 5 Years you are committed to the club for those times, if you want to move to another club because you feel like it and your club think its not the right price you will be going to a war you will most likely lose, Look at a lot of of the tottenham players and Levy especially danny rose they are running out their contracts because they set a price for them other clubs did not think they were worth and they wanted to leave, so they are letting their contract run out so they can move on a free but if they pick up an major injuiry they might as well retire that is the risk.

But it's very rare the selling club benefits from a bidding war, they just match each others bids, roughly, then offer more to the player to get them to choose them. Only "bidding war" I can really think of, and was very rare because of how it happened, was United offering 20 million above price on Pogba to scare off the opposition. They did that because, even though he was willing to go there on the mega wages they were offering there were much better options out there. But that was really unusual, United were extremely desperate to make a statement.
Bidding War is the norm now to get the selling club on board, Case in point If Real madrid offered 150 Mil for salah now and Salah said he wants to move to valencia and they can only offer 80 Mil What would you do? Please Salah and sell him for half price of what Real Madrid is offering? Because you really have three options here as a selling club if you want the 150 Mil, 1) Persuade Salah to go to Madrid 2) Persuade Valencia to match 150 Mill and tell him to sweeten the deal with them on the personal terms 3) Let him run his contract and move on a free.
 

OzzyKop

Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2019
Messages
54
Agreed. The fee quoted to the media sets the threshold for negotiation. No way in hell it goes over 120m
Not long before we find out i think, he will be gone this summer. You saying close to 100 Mill pounds and i am thinking nothing less than 150 Mill pounds. we shall revisit our posts when the time comes.