Jadon Sancho (RW) Borussia Dortmund

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Disagree.

Your post only serves to back up the issues to be faced when trying to maintain 4 players in 3 positions.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.beinsports.com/us/soccer/news/pedro-admits-being-unhappy-at-barcelona/46688/amp

"It is clear that I am having a tough time to find a place in the team at the moment. I have had few chances to play this season. - Pedro

https://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spanish-football/2009/05/08/1253196/unhappy-eidur-gudjohnsen-i-will-most-likely-leave-barcelona

"I do not understand why my status [within the team] changes this suddenly because I thought I was doing well. This is difficult to swallow.

https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/bojan-senior-unhappy-with-barcelona-s-treatment-of-son

"Sometimes, Ronaldinho was on the bench and Bojan starts. You can imagine, eh? Not easy. It became very difficult. He wasn't welcomed in by everyone.

"[Pep] Guardiola didn't give him continuity. In the Copa del Rey, Bojan was the top goalscorer for Pep.

"In La Liga, he could score one or two goals, but then not play again for weeks. It is very curious.

"In the title run-in in 2010, he kept [Zlatan] Ibrahimovic on the bench. Bojan played, scoring at Sevilla and Tenerife, and they were decisive goals. Then, when the season ended, they signed David Villa."


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.empireofthekop.com/2019/01/15/coutinho-unhappy-bunny-in-spain-needs-manager-like-klopp-again-tim-vickery/amp/

The 26-year-old currently cannot get into Barca’s starting XI because Ernesto Valverde has decided he isn’t suitable for the midfield three, with Ousmane Dembele, Lionel Messi and Luis Suarez the starting forwards.

There are reports this season of both Griezmann and Dembele are unhappy.

I'd argue Barca's success has more to do with have the best player in the world for the last decade and the rest of the team packed with talent, than because they use a 4th forward.

As good as we are at recruitment and planning, that doesn't make it any easier to keep 4 people happy in 3 positions, unless you are signing Minamino types instead of the Sancho's of this world.
Bojan was tried out, an academy product that was given room to develop (like I want) and eventually given a season as one of their main options before eventually being moved on for not being good enough.

Gudjohnsen spent 3 years there as 4th choice, he eventually left but he was a decent 4th choice although he was always a clear 4th choice who never got close to challenging those higher than him in the pecking order. Nothing wrong with that. Do you think Origi will be happy to stay in the same role for longer than that?

Pedro was there for 7 years and only got up to 3rd choice for one season, its exactly the kind of thing we would want. Good enough for there not to be a huge drop off when called upon, sometimes (maybe with a little help from local-club developed bias) seen as really good enough to challenge the other 3 especially Sanchez. Absolutely no problem if we had a Pedro level player here for the next 7 years challenging to be 3rd choice but usually 4th choice forward. Lot of revisionism about how good he was or wasn't as it hasn't really worked out very well at Chelsea but he was really good at Barca a stable (back then) club that played football that matched him well.

Dembele, Griezmann, Coutinho are all part of this decline caused by knee jerk reaction panic buying. Results of their poor recruitment decisions and lack of long term planning. They never thought out succession plans for Messi and Suarez and ended up needing to make one for Neymar out of sticky back plastic and making tape.... bought at harrods for 3 times the price. Just so they could reassure their fans they'd bought nice new shiny toys to replace the one they hadn't meant to lose.

That Neymar deal is what has ultimately fucked them up. They haven't got their shit together since and there doesn't appear to be much joined up thinking over there anymore. But before that they were legitimately where we want to be. What they weren't winning they were competing for (usually as favourites), world famous for playing good football and still developing their own talent from their academy.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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@Anfield rd Dreamer , if I just read your last 2 posts and had no idea of where the conversation has been, I would think you are arguing that with Origi and Minamino we already have enough depth and so need to not buy anyone else to get in the way of Elliott and maybe Wilson.
No because at the moment I think we are doing option 2;

"Option 2: Have an amazing starting line up with players limited as "cover" players backing them up, never good enough to challenge the starters and due to their limitations the best from the academy will always be able to challenge for chances. The issue with this is your success is still 100% dependent on your starting attackers staying fit, and if you have too many cover players you may not get much playing time left for your academy kids."

When I want us to do option 3;

"Option 3: 4 top players for your front 3, maybe one or two cover options and then lean on the academy kids, giving them real playing time opportunities to fill out your squads and numbers. This is what Barca have seemed to try and do. Its proven that it can achieve all the points you want to hit (playing style, success/trophies, academy prospects getting the chance to impress/develop) over a sustained period that didn't work here and there but providing the teams recruitment is spot on it can work."

Option 2 relies far too heavily on the fitness of the starting players. One of them goes off injured for awhile you're hamstrung and your chances of success take a huge hit. It also ironically gets in the way of the academy players getting game time. Having Lallana (also midfield so maybe only half the time), Shaqiri, Origi and Minamino all wanting and challenging for playing time behind a front 3 that almost never get rested (because we can't afford to) means less opportunities for academy kids unless they are really special. It also increases the chances of injury amongst your starters due to less rest time, rotation, playing through knocks and niggles due to being needed.

Now as I've said before it's not about how much you spend on a player (Pedro came through Barcas academy, Robertson is possibly the best left back on the planet) and Minamino could well end up being good enough at which point I'd then be looking to move on two of Shaqiri, Origi and Lallana to create more opportunities for our academy talents as we wouldn't need as much depth.

All this is just my opinion but if Minamino isn't cemented as a real quality choice that gives Klopp one of those infamous (and desirable) selection headaches by the end of the season (or at least look like he will) then I'd be expecting to see us sign someone and possibly clear put all of Shaqiri, Origi and Lallana instead.
 

Limiescouse

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Conceptually I understand the difference between option 2 and 3. What I cannot connect is how you take the position you do while holding up Barca as the great example to follow, especially when compared with the players we have at the club, and even more especially when coupled with your historical insistence on needing another player.
 

Red over the water

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Another intriguing thing to note is whether any of the up and coming young players we have at the club might prove to be option 3 players before too long?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Conceptually I understand the difference between option 2 and 3. What I cannot connect is how you take the position you do while holding up Barca as the great example to follow, especially when compared with the players we have at the club, and even more especially when coupled with your historical insistence on needing another player.
My opinion is that we need another quality player (specifically a left wing option who can maybe play right side too if possible) so there is no drop off when Salah and Mane need resting/get injured/lots of games. Mane and Salah need more rests than they are getting and because what rests we are giving them are in the cup competitions we stand less chance of doing well in them (sure they've played in them for us in the past). Even when the likes of Shaqiri are available and Salah has an ankle niggle we can't afford to rest Salah or Mane as every game matters so much.

The upside of having that player is we need less cover options as that player would fill most of the available playing slots left. That player and Minamino backed up by the academy kids would probably be enough options to cover/compete with the front 3. So you'd end up with more chances for the likes of Elliot, Brewster (when not on loan) and Jones and such. You'd also have to play the likes of Ox out of position less often where he hasn't been as impressive.
 

Mascot88

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My opinion is that we need another quality player (specifically a left wing option who can maybe play right side too if possible) so there is no drop off when Salah and Mane need resting/get injured/lots of games. Mane and Salah need more rests than they are getting and because what rests we are giving them are in the cup competitions we stand less chance of doing well in them (sure they've played in them for us in the past). Even when the likes of Shaqiri are available and Salah has an ankle niggle we can't afford to rest Salah or Mane as every game matters so much.

The upside of having that player is we need less cover options as that player would fill most of the available playing slots left. That player and Minamino backed up by the academy kids would probably be enough options to cover/compete with the front 3. So you'd end up with more chances for the likes of Elliot, Brewster (when not on loan) and Jones and such. You'd also have to play the likes of Ox out of position less often where he hasn't been as impressive.
Do you think we need to add a forward to Mane, Salah and Firmino alongside Origi and Minamino (and Elliot and Jones, to a point) or are you selling one of them?

In two moves (Minamino and your forward) we’ll have just killed all Origi’s games, so I think he is likely to want to get off.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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I honestly think we should postpone this discussion a month or two when it should be clearer how Minamino fits into Klopp's plans positionally and in terms of playing time, and we have also seen how good he is. If he's excellent and getting games in wide positions then it renders a lot of the above moot.
 

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I honestly think we should postpone this discussion a month or two when it should be clearer how Minamino fits into Klopp's plans positionally and in terms of playing time, and we have also seen how good he is. If he's excellent and getting games in wide positions then it renders a lot of the above moot.
You're totally right of course. Remember that quote from Klopp: "The best players in the world today are around already. What I enjoy more is trying to identify the best players of tomorrow."

He said this when he came in to the club, but I'm ready to bet that this is still what he looks to do. And let's cross fingers that Minamino is one of the best players of tomorrow, just like Mané, Salah and Firmino were such players when Klopp started to work with them.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Do you think we need to add a forward to Mane, Salah and Firmino alongside Origi and Minamino (and Elliot and Jones, to a point) or are you selling one of them?

In two moves (Minamino and your forward) we’ll have just killed all Origi’s games, so I think he is likely to want to get off.
I answered it in the post you quoted;

"The upside of having that player is we need less cover options as that player would fill most of the available playing slots left. That player and Minamino backed up by the academy kids would probably be enough options to cover/compete with the front 3."

Think I've said all I could possibly say in this matter now anyway and taking the good advice of @Zinedine Biscan above!
 

Iluvatar

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Conceptually I understand the difference between option 2 and 3. What I cannot connect is how you take the position you do while holding up Barca as the great example to follow, especially when compared with the players we have at the club, and even more especially when coupled with your historical insistence on needing another player.
Barca is a shit example, their wage bill is fucking stratospherically huge. Bar City/PSG/Real/Utd I don't see anyone else paying a 4th choice the wages they do.
 

Limiescouse

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Barca is a shit example, their wage bill is fucking stratospherically huge. Bar City/PSG/Real/Utd I don't see anyone else paying a 4th choice the wages they do.
For me the issue with the comparison is that they have never actually had 4 interchangeable top forwards. When they signed Henry, for 1 year they had on paper 4 big names for those 3 slots, but it was a piss poor year with pretty much all of them getting it in the neck from fans about their lack of form. Ever since they sold Neymar they've found themselves in a similar situation in terms of numbers, but that is largely because of continued distrust in the non-Suarez and Messi options they do have so they bought more than they had an immediate need for. Fuck, one of the biggest issues Valverde had was that he got pissed because despite having these 4 top forwards he felt they were unreliable enough that he still needed another option so asked his board to go and get him Carlos Vela from the MLS. They got him a fat and disinterested Prince Boateng instead.

For a few years they had Pedro as one of their 4 options, and despite being a solid first choice at one point during a CL winning campaign he always suffered from the perception that Barca should have better. It's why even after being effective Barca repeatedly went to the market to try to replace him. Clearly they did not see him as a top interchangeable forward, and eventually let him leave in his prime.
 
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The Elusive 19th

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I honestly think we should postpone this discussion a month or two when it should be clearer how Minamino fits into Klopp's plans positionally and in terms of playing time, and we have also seen how good he is. If he's excellent and getting games in wide positions then it renders a lot of the above moot.
Further we can get a glimpse of how it affect Origi and Shaq's game time. Right now based on the players (Bobby, Mane, Mo, Taki, Origi, Shaq and Jones) we have, it is a one in one out situation. Even if we want to accommodate our own player Wilson, someone has to be sold. I think if we can keep these 7, we have a really good quality in depth and very good versatility.
 

cynicaloldgit

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Further we can get a glimpse of how it affect Origi and Shaq's game time. Right now based on the players (Bobby, Mane, Mo, Taki, Origi, Shaq and Jones) we have, it is a one in one out situation. Even if we want to accommodate our own player Wilson, someone has to be sold. I think if we can keep these 7, we have a really good quality in depth and very good versatility.
You forgot Elliott.

Ten press ups!
 

Mascot88

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I answered it in the post you quoted;

"The upside of having that player is we need less cover options as that player would fill most of the available playing slots left. That player and Minamino backed up by the academy kids would probably be enough options to cover/compete with the front 3."

Think I've said all I could possibly say in this matter now anyway and taking the good advice of @Zinedine Biscan above!
So you’re selling him then?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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So you’re selling him then?
I think it would be a mutual departure. Origi may want to leave by the summer anyway if Minamino takes a lot of his playing time. Let alone if he sees us looking for another forward. Klopp won't keep unhappy players and won't clog up the squad with players who don't play much.
 

Mascot88

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I think it would be a mutual departure. Origi may want to leave by the summer anyway if Minamino takes a lot of his playing time. Let alone if he sees us looking for another forward. Klopp won't keep unhappy players and won't clog up the squad with players who don't play much.
Yeah, if Origi wants to get off, I’d imagine that it would be with Klopp’s blessing, and aside from the small matter of where he wants his statue putting, little hinderance.

That being the case, we can look at another wide player, and possibly upgrade on Div.

But in general, I’m perfectly happy with Origi playing the role he is playing now, and if he is happy (and I think he is) I wouldn’t be looking at adding a forward this summer. I think we are well covered, and that is only going to improve as Elliot and Jone start knocking on the door.
 

waldaz

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Rumours of next AFCON possibly moved back to Jan/Feb. Wonder if that will have an impact on this.
 

redfanman

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Rumours of next AFCON possibly moved back to Jan/Feb. Wonder if that will have an impact on this.
It would be uncomfortable if true, unless there is a winter break being planned for each season going forwards now. We would lose 3 of our attacking players (Mane, Salah and Keita). Matip has retired from international football. Presumably we are not looking to add any more players who would qualify for AFCON football while that is a risk unless we are replacing one of those three.
 

Richard88

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Rumours of next AFCON possibly moved back to Jan/Feb. Wonder if that will have an impact on this.
I can't see the club being content with playing 6+ league fixtures with 3 of the most important attacking players out. Mané and Salah are our depth forwards, and nobody else in the squad does what they do. We really need someone who can somewhat replicate what they do, whether it is Sancho, Werner, or someone else.
 

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Not sure this will persuade people who don't think we should sign him (as it's not about his quality, more about whether we have room to add, for those posters) but found this article interesting. Can see why most put him second only to Mbappe in lists of dream forwards.

 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Interesting, really? It's half wankfest-half stat vomit.
It's a scouting report. Is your problem that it's too complimentary? Or too stat focused?

Because if your problem is the stats have I got some news about how we do our (incredibly successful) recruitment!

If it is that it's too complimentary we are talking about a 19 year old in a top league playing week in week out for a top European side who has 11 goals and 12 assists in 17 games in the league and 2 goals and 2 assists in 6 games in the Champions League! What do you expect a scouting report to sound like?
 

vjcpatriot

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Sancho is an incredibly promising young player. The similarities to Salah before signing with LFC are also intriguing. Here’s the issue though - he is English. That means he is far more valuable to Premier League teams and will treble his price tag. Sure I’d love to add Sancho to LFC because he is young and talented. But is he going to be worth over £100m pounds?
 

ILLOK

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It's a scouting report. Is your problem that it's too complimentary? Or too stat focused?

Because if your problem is the stats have I got some news about how we do our (incredibly successful) recruitment!

If it is that it's too complimentary we are talking about a 19 year old in a top league playing week in week out for a top European side who has 11 goals and 12 assists in 17 games in the league and 2 goals and 2 assists in 6 games in the Champions League! What do you expect a scouting report to sound like?
Do you actually think our club would produce a report that looks like that?

It's not a scout report, it's a sales pitch. It just reads like a long, rambling post in the 'who would you buy' thread. Quite a basic and boring use of stats with little in the way of critical analysis of the stats used.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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Do you actually think our club would produce a report that looks like that?

It's not a scout report, it's a sales pitch. It just reads like a long, rambling post in the 'who would you buy' thread. Quite a basic and boring use of stats with little in the way of critical analysis of the stats used.
So are you saying that the conclusion is wrong? The wrong result has been found and he isn't impressive? I never claimed it was insightful or a professional report. I just said I found it interesting. There was talk earlier on (during the Bayern benching time) about him not doing so well. The article was interesting to me as it takes you through the season this 19 year old is having and it seems incredibly impressive. Maybe you were just being a bit too grouchy with your response?

Maybe if you are so disappointed with the quality of the report you could do a more in depth appraisal of more meaningful stats to show if he is or isn't a good player? Is he doing significantly worse than other top stars were when they were 19? Do his goals and assists mask him being disappointing in other fields?
 

ILLOK

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So are you saying that the conclusion is wrong? The wrong result has been found and he isn't impressive? I never claimed it was insightful or a professional report. I just said I found it interesting. There was talk earlier on (during the Bayern benching time) about him not doing so well. The article was interesting to me as it takes you through the season this 19 year old is having and it seems incredibly impressive. Maybe you were just being a bit too grouchy with your response?

Maybe if you are so disappointed with the quality of the report you could do a more in depth appraisal of more meaningful stats to show if he is or isn't a good player? Is he doing significantly worse than other top stars were when they were 19? Do his goals and assists mask him being disappointing in other fields?
It's the over emphasis on goals and assists that's boring. Yes, those stats are compelling. They are very impressive. You can make that point in about 5000 fewer words than he's used which is the crux of my grumble.

If I wanted to read a report I'd be interested to see his other stats - dribbling, ball retention, distance covered, sprints, heat maps, ball recoveries, 50/50 duels, plenty more, and how this compares to similar players (primarily in ours and Dortmund's squads)

How is his attitude? Would his wages be an issue?

I'd look at his team - how do Dortmund set up compared to Liverpool, how well are his teammates doing (G&A), I'd look at whether playing ahead of a player as good as Hakimi gives him an advantage, how do they play without Sancho etc

You could even look at pitch sizes and other such miscellaneous details to see if he's at an advantage or disadvantage for the way he plays.

I'd look at the league - average goals per game compared to other leagues, average positions of opposition defences, that sort of stuff.

There's loads of interesting data to look at. I don't have access to it and I'm not arsed about getting it but if I was writing a similar piece I'd be trying to cast a critical eye over the player rather than just giving him a virtual tommy tank. If that ends up being as compelling as the headline stats suggest, so be it.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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It's the over emphasis on goals and assists that's boring. Yes, those stats are compelling. They are very impressive. You can make that point in about 5000 fewer words than he's used which is the crux of my grumble.

If I wanted to read a report I'd be interested to see his other stats - dribbling, ball retention, distance covered, sprints, heat maps, ball recoveries, 50/50 duels, plenty more, and how this compares to similar players (primarily in ours and Dortmund's squads)

How is his attitude? Would his wages be an issue?

I'd look at his team - how do Dortmund set up compared to Liverpool, how well are his teammates doing (G&A), I'd look at whether playing ahead of a player as good as Hakimi gives him an advantage, how do they play without Sancho etc

You could even look at pitch sizes and other such miscellaneous details to see if he's at an advantage or disadvantage for the way he plays.

I'd look at the league - average goals per game compared to other leagues, average positions of opposition defences, that sort of stuff.

There's loads of interesting data to look at. I don't have access to it and I'm not arsed about getting it but if I was writing a similar piece I'd be trying to cast a critical eye over the player rather than just giving him a virtual tommy tank. If that ends up being as compelling as the headline stats suggest, so be it.
I'm sure a club would do something that in depth or more but for casual fans, even hard core fans, that takes it far past the "stat vomit" you described the fluff piece as. Maybe you are just too demanding? If even half what you've listed was included it probably wouldn't get enough of an audience for it to get a platform. As a writer you have to cater to your audience!