Jadon Sancho (RW) Borussia Dortmund

Anfield rd Dreamer

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To much of an oversimplification anyway.

Would Sancho have been a better player to bring on than Origi? Probably.

But it ignores all the other potential issues that would come with buying Sancho that have been mentioned before.

First and foremost would he have had a problem being on the bench and not in the starting line-up.
We've had 44 games, Sancho has started 29 at Dortmund. Of 44 games Mane has started 29 and Salah has started 34. With not being able to rest Salah as much as we should have when he was injured and hardly resting Mane there still could have been over 20 starts for another top wide option this season. In reality if we had another top wide option this season Salah and Mane would have been rested and rotated more than they have been and Sancho could have easily started as many matches as Mane.
 

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That's great.

Still doesn't solve the problems of last night. The very same Liverpool squad of 18 is capable of far, far better, which they'll hopefully show in a few weeks.
So you really dont think Mane was doing better than Origi? That better players equal better chances of breaking down better opposition? Origi is not as good when it comes to an attempt "to break them down we need to build our play up much better as a team." As a better player is he? Its directly matching his deficiencies as a player.
 

ILLOK

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So you really dont think Mane was doing better than Origi? That better players equal better chances of breaking down better opposition? Origi is not as good when it comes to an attempt "to break them down we need to build our play up much better as a team." As a better player is he? Its directly matching his deficiencies as a player.
You always want to talk about individuals and transfers. Honestly, I find it a bit boring, so I'll leave it there.
 

Red over the water

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I think this discussion is both/and.

The main problem last night was that we could have played better. The collective. For whatever reason, we didn’t quite perform at our level. It happens. Fortunately for us it is infrequent, but still, last night was not as good as we can do. (Atlético deserve some credit, even if I can’t stand their flopping approach. The ref gave them everything. The crowd was very intense, as was the opponent on the pitch. But they executed their game plan better than we did).

Even so, our main problem was we were below our best, and to win there we needed to play better.

Now... let’s imagine we have a player like Sancho to bring on. There’s no guarantee he would do any better than Origi or anyone else, but generally speaking, better players are more likely to do something to break a tough opponent down, to spark something to life, to do something unexpected to help lift a team.

No guarantee he would have done that, but if we had him to call upon, he would definitely help our current front three, by both rotating (plenty of games for everyone) and keeping everyone on their toes, as no matter who you are, if there’s someone else just as good waiting to get on, you need to produce your best stuff.
 

Walshy07

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This lad is getting rave reviews. We need to go and buy him then figure out what to.
You could put Salah in middle, Sancho right and drop bobby a bit deeper as he is a play maker and not a out and out goal scorer.
 

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I was waiting for a bump to a few of the player rumour threads.

Tbh the whole team seemed to be infected with a bout of shocking passing, awful first touches and just generally lackadaisical build up play. It was odd, almost like they were playing with a collective headache. Credit to Atletico for executing their plan perfectly really. I do think if TAA and Robbo in particular play to their best, we're far less likely to be having this conversation.

Of course it'd be brilliant to have a player of Sancho's quality coming on for Mane in the second half, but again it all comes back to those critical questions about value for money and the player being happy to start down the pecking order. Just because we lost a game against a low block doesn't change those facts.
 

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We've had 44 games, Sancho has started 29 at Dortmund. Of 44 games Mane has started 29 and Salah has started 34. With not being able to rest Salah as much as we should have when he was injured and hardly resting Mane there still could have been over 20 starts for another top wide option this season. In reality if we had another top wide option this season Salah and Mane would have been rested and rotated more than they have been and Sancho could have easily started as many matches as Mane.
And around we go again.

Mr Edwards. We’ve heard your arguments that my client, Mr Sancho, will play 30-40 games this season. This is acceptable to us. However, we remain concerned that the games will not be high enough profile. Please can you guarantee my Client will be starting Champion’s League games, key top six games, and televised matches?
 

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And around we go again.

Mr Edwards. We’ve heard your arguments that my client, Mr Sancho, will play 30-40 games this season. This is acceptable to us. However, we remain concerned that the games will not be high enough profile. Please can you guarantee my Client will be starting Champion’s League games, key top six games, and televised matches?
No player will ever be signed by LFC that demands they are played a certain amount first and foremost.

Second Salah and Mane were quite happy to represent us in all comps before this season. It keeps getting repeated but there is zero reason why Salah, Mane and new signing wouldn't be able, and quite happy, with some of their playing time being in the domestic cups. Sancho isn't going to sit at the end of a season (with a trio of PL, CL and FA cup medals) unhappy because 5 of his 35 starts in all comps came in the domestic cups and only 5 in CL and 25 in Prem. Especially not if he is coming off the bench in a lot of the games he doesn't start.

This season a Sancho or similar player on our books would be on about the same amount of playing time as Mane if the new guy hadn't picked up any injuries without Salah or Mane being pissed off over being "dropped" or whatever. But next season we are definitely missing Salah and Mane more than we've missed them this season.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

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You always want to talk about individuals and transfers. Honestly, I find it a bit boring, so I'll leave it there.
Funny that I do such a thing in transfer threads and the who would you buy thread.

Edit: And for the record if Wilson was quicker and played more like Salah and Mane or one of the other academy kids was ready Alexander-Arnold style I wouldn't want a transfer. I want a transfer because we can't fill the need internally.
 

ILLOK

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This lad is getting rave reviews. We need to go and buy him then figure out what to.
You could put Salah in middle, Sancho right and drop bobby a bit deeper as he is a play maker and not a out and out goal scorer.
Has Firmino ever played well for us as a #10? It's not the same role as his current one.

Don't see the need to change shape anyway, our current one is working quite well as it is.
 

Mascot88

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No player will ever be signed by LFC that demands they are played a certain amount first and foremost.

Second Salah and Mane were quite happy to represent us in all comps before this season. It keeps getting repeated but there is zero reason why Salah, Mane and new signing wouldn't be able, and quite happy, with some of their playing time being in the domestic cups. Sancho isn't going to sit at the end of a season (with a trio of PL, CL and FA cup medals) unhappy because 5 of his 35 starts in all comps came in the domestic cups and only 5 in CL and 25 in Prem. Especially not if he is coming off the bench in a lot of the games he doesn't start.

This season a Sancho or similar player on our books would be on about the same amount of playing time as Mane if the new guy hadn't picked up any injuries without Salah or Mane being pissed off over being "dropped" or whatever. But next season we are definitely missing Salah and Mane more than we've missed them this season.
A player on Sancho’s trajectory is going to not only expect game, but also big games.

You can easily promise a player like Sancho 30 games if you bundle up the league and FA cups, and games against the leagues shite teams. I don’t think he’d be happy with this
 

LFCFFC

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No player will ever be signed by LFC that demands they are played a certain amount first and foremost.
I think the point here though is that Sancho would be well within his rights to make those demands, and we obviously wouldn't be able to meet them.

And then even assuming he's ok with the number of starts we offer him because he wants to play for Liverpool, we're spending a club record fee on a player who's not filling an obvious hole in the first team.

I don't think anyone here is doubting that Sancho would be a fantastic acquisition. I'll be stoked if we somehow end up with him. It's moreso the fact that he's not the kind of signing we're even remotely likely to make based off our previous transfer history under Klopp and Edwards and we can't offer him game time assurances or ridiculous money that other clubs like United will be able to.
 

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Did you think LFC would splash out £68m on a keeper who let in 7 or 8 against us a few weeks before he signed?
I'm generally pessimistic about us landing top transfers, so can't say I expected it. But both in his case and in VVD's, I could see the sense in paying that much to get them. Because in both cases, the moves were addressing clear weaknesses in the team.

In this case, I just can't see the sense in splashing out so much money for a player. For what we know, Minamino is maybe already the player for next season to allow more rotation for Mané and Salah. And nobody but Klopp and his staff can know if he'll do a worse, a similar or a better job for us than Sancho would do. And who knows, maybe Shaq will finally get over his injury jinx and complement our forward line next season, as he did during last (now that would have been a handy player to bring in last night...).

At the end of the day, the only people who have a reasonable view of all this are Klopp and the people at the club. We fans are just stumbling around in the dark and making wild guesses... :giggle: I'd bet that this lad isn't on Klopp's radar at all, but maybe I'm completely wrong. We'll see.
 

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Sancho destroyed PSG last night, we should be signing him to supplement Mané and Salah. Last night showed we still lack world class attacking depth. He’s worth the figures banded about, that’s the level of signing to enable us to compete on all fronts.
To be fair though, Atletico's defence is decent and PSG's is pathetic.
 

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A player on Sancho’s trajectory is going to not only expect game, but also big games.

You can easily promise a player like Sancho 30 games if you bundle up the league and FA cups, and games against the leagues shite teams. I don’t think he’d be happy with this
Why can't he have big games? You are the one limiting him to small games. Klopp isn't going to rest any of our front 3 for Origi unless he has to (so less rotation than Klopp would likely use if he had a better player to turn to than Origi) but still look at games he has played. Chelsea, United, City, Atletico Madrid, Salzberg. If Origi isn't limited to cup games and shite league teams Sancho certainly wouldn't be. You don't get to choose every time you are going to use someone in advance. Players get tired and need rests (currently not happening with our front 3 which has me very worried as it has been several seasons), get suspended for cards, pick up knocks and niggles (Salah played with an ankle injury for 2 months because injured Salah is still head and shoulders above any other option for the front three, what if that had made the knock into a major issue and we lose him for 6 months).
 

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I think the point here though is that Sancho would be well within his rights to make those demands, and we obviously wouldn't be able to meet them.

And then even assuming he's ok with the number of starts we offer him because he wants to play for Liverpool, we're spending a club record fee on a player who's not filling an obvious hole in the first team.

I don't think anyone here is doubting that Sancho would be a fantastic acquisition. I'll be stoked if we somehow end up with him. It's moreso the fact that he's not the kind of signing we're even remotely likely to make based off our previous transfer history under Klopp and Edwards and we can't offer him game time assurances or ridiculous money that other clubs like United will be able to.
Why would we obviously not be able to meet them? Origi just played half a CL game against Atletico Madrid and Mane was fresh back from injury and could have been rested full stop. There have been loads of games, big games, when we easily could and would have played another wide forward this season if we had had one.

I also disagree with peoples definition of first team, to me it's more than a starting 11. All 3 of VvD, Gomez and Matip are first team. All of Henderson, Fabinho, Wijnaldum and Ox (arguably Milner and Keita too) are all first team. At the moment we field two wide forwards in every game if we can. But we only have two senior wide forwards on the books.

Would we accept a CB group of VvD and Gomez with only youth kids, Fabinho and Henderson as back up? I'd say VvD and Gomez are on same standard as Salah and Mane and like with Gomez (FB) we can play Mane in other positions (10, false 9) to provide better quality cover in other positions too.
 

auzziez

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This lad is getting rave reviews. We need to go and buy him then figure out what to.
You could put Salah in middle, Sancho right and drop bobby a bit deeper as he is a play maker and not a out and out goal scorer.
That's exactly opposite of what we have been doing so far and with great success. We first decide what to do with the player and sign only if we are convinced that he is going to do what we want of him in Klopp's system.
Not saying that we won't buy him or that he is not an exceptional player. But we simply not going to buy him first and then try to figure out how to use him.
 

Red over the water

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This lad is getting rave reviews. We need to go and buy him then figure out what to.
You could put Salah in middle, Sancho right and drop bobby a bit deeper as he is a play maker and not a out and out goal scorer.
Exactly. There are options to play all four at once, options to play three of the four as needed, due to form, fitness, rest, opponent on the day... And thinking about next season specifically, it has a big AFCON shaped hole in the middle, so with Mo and Mane absent, there will be even more need to sign Sancho to keep us going at the top of the league!

I'm on the Sancho bus, sign him up! (If we somehow manage to sign Mbappe instead, bring it on).
 

Red over the water

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At the moment we field two wide forwards in every game if we can. But we only have two senior wide forwards on the books.
I think this point is crucial. Sancho is another like Mo/Mane - fast, tricky, goals, assists. We have other players on the books who can tide us over out wide, but the level drops too much. Add Sancho and it stays high.
 

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We need another top quality forward. Sancho is pretty close to that and he's still young and will improve. Valuations of £100m there or thereabouts is expensive but then that's the market. As for suitable alternatives not sure but that's what the club will be looking at. It should also be noted we've spent very little on a net basis under Klopp throughout his reign.

Losing Mane and Salah next season is a problem. Make no mistake. Guaranteed to lose both of them and that's ignoring any injuries they may suffer at another time during the season. Outside Firmino, Mane and Salah the quality isn't there and options like Oxlade-Chamberlain don't really fit the bill as a wide forward. Minamino we still need to see more of.

We overpaid for van Dijk despite being a top centre back but there's no regret on this move. Paying £100m or so for Sancho again is probably over the top but we would have a very good player nonetheless and sometimes you just need to take the bullet. We need more quality and depth as is but going into another season without strengthening would be a concern.
 

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I can only see us buy him if we lose one of our front three,just too expensive for anything other than that.
Why though? What else do we need to spend money on? 2 seasons ago we had 120 million pound net spend. Yet the club earn a hell of a lot more money than we did then! We bought multiple players then, we might only need a forward to upgrade on Origi and/or Shaqiri and maybe a player who can play LB now. We might also recoup over 100 million in player sales without too much effort with Edwards doing the negotiations and any or all of Karius, Lovren, Grujic, Wilson, Ojo, Ejaria, Awoniyi, Shaqiri and Origi potentially departing. I legitimately believe the money would be there for an Mbappe fee if the move is possible. We are in a position this summer we have never been in before. A top quality, balanced squad that can compete and win trophies at the top level that has no pressing needs. The few needs and improvements we do need to address Klopp can get any player on the planet he decides is the best to address it.
 

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I think this point is crucial. Sancho is another like Mo/Mane - fast, tricky, goals, assists. We have other players on the books who can tide us over out wide, but the level drops too much. Add Sancho and it stays high.
Not just drops too much they literally play nothing like Salah and Mane. It would be like having Milner cover VvD. A player that brings some good qualities to the side but you really wouldn't be able to set your team up in the same way.
 

Red over the water

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Yep. I'm all aboard the Sancho bus.

Sell Shaqiri, Wilson and Grujic. That's at least half the Sancho fee covered. Sell one or two other fringe players who don't play or won't make it. With Lallana's hefty wage off the books, plus Shaqiri if sold, we would go a long way towards paying Sancho too.

Financially we could do the Sancho deal and it will barely cause a ripple, if we offset it similarly to this.
On a sporting level we have need to do it now, to say nothing of planning for the future.
 

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Why though? What else do we need to spend money on? 2 seasons ago we had 120 million pound net spend. Yet the club earn a hell of a lot more money than we did then! We bought multiple players then, we might only need a forward to upgrade on Origi and/or Shaqiri and maybe a player who can play LB now. We might also recoup over 100 million in player sales without too much effort with Edwards doing the negotiations and any or all of Karius, Lovren, Grujic, Wilson, Ojo, Ejaria, Awoniyi, Shaqiri and Origi potentially departing. I legitimately believe the money would be there for an Mbappe fee if the move is possible. We are in a position this summer we have never been in before. A top quality, balanced squad that can compete and win trophies at the top level that has no pressing needs. The few needs and improvements we do need to address Klopp can get any player on the planet he decides is the best to address it.
I can't see it happening,VVD and Alisson were desperately needed plus Klopp didn't want or looked for alternatives so we paid what we had to,Timo looks more realistic to me.
 

Red over the water

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It's not quite as simple as selling a few players to fund the deal.

Bringing Sancho in as our top earner from day one would bring a host of potential issues to the squad that could be avoided.
I agree things are rarely simple. We are talking about several deals, worth millions, and even more important, the careers of people who will have options, plans, preferences, and so on.

With that said, it's not hard to see how Shaqiri, Wilson and Grujic might be sold this summer. One is here now and he wants to play more (granted, currently injured). We made the price known for him recently. The other two are loanees who are of an age in their early 20s that they probably can't continue on for much longer in the loan cycle. I'm pretty sure Wilson won't make the grade here, but he does have qualities that will attract a decent sum. Grujic might come back and add depth to the midfield, but I suspect another sale.

75M pounds for the three of them is not too fanciful, and that's before we add a few others to the outgoing list, like Awoniyi. Whatever way you slice it, we have fringe players we don't need or who won't make the grade, and their sale would go quite some way to paying the transfer fee of a potentially very important player like Sancho.

Now we get to the wages. If Lallana and Shaqiri leave, as I expect, that will free up a decent sum. But there's no way I would suggest Sancho should be our top earner. If he expects that, we don't proceed, simple as. We have form for renewing contracts after players prove their worth. We should stick to that. That's not to say Sancho would be poorly paid. He just won't be top dog. If Sancho won't come to us on that basis, fine, he's not the right player for us. There are other good players who would love to get in on what is happening at Liverpool under Klopp.

Anyway, just passing the time of day, but my view is that financially speaking, going for Sancho is very doable, and if we box clever with outgoings, as we have been doing, there will be barely a financial ripple.

Beyond the finances it absolutely makes sense to me on a sporting level. We play with two wingers. We need a top class third option.
 

Semmy

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I truly believe Salah and Mane need a viable rotation alternative without a significant drop in quality.

Was hoping Shaqiri would be that guy. Thought he was, after the Barca result. Not sure what he has done to be basically frozen out.

Yesterday highlighted a weakness, a hole in our squad. Has been exploited a few times now, by R Madrid, Napoli, Atletico and last year by the likes of Spartak where we lost 2-0 away. I believe it in part to be wear and tear on the players. We had to sub Mane into a game weeks after a hamstring injury because we couldn't put NORWICH away who are bottom of the table.

New players bring new threats. Minamino has been added but shown nothing if substance as of yet. Origi flashed some great footwork in tight spaces yesterday but I was really hoping to see Shaq come in for Salah instead of Oxlade.

What we rarely see anymore is a full-on break on the counterattack. Ball seems to die in the midfield transition, when we do see a striker released it is usually as a result of VVD sending one into the channel.

In this case, I wouldn't mind seeing an extra winger brought in. Would definitely take Sané, possibly Werner. Sancho if the price works but guessing not. Would try to pry Goretzka from Bayern or Havertz if the price works as well. Or Saul from Atletico.
 

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Posted on Werner thread as well.

Ok, Werner and Sancho are not my main interest in the upcoming transfer window, its 100% Havertz for me, however this is the Sancho thread, so I thought I would look at some current senior careers of the other two:

Sancho, Debut at age 17 (age 19)

Bundesliga - 66 appearances, 26 goals, 35 assists. Goal involvement every 1.08 games.
Champs League - 14 appearances, 3 goals, 3 assists. Goal involvement every 2.3 games.

80 games, 29 goals, 38 assists

Missed games due to Injury - 14 games, so he misses 1 game for every 5.7.
Longest amount of consecutive games missed - 9.

Rumored transfer fee (£100 million). Its been generally agreed that the transfer fee is most likely going to be at +/- amount, especially defendant on many clubs going to bid.

Personality/professional issues?
  • Suspended for reporting back late.
  • Fined for above infraction.
  • A little bit flashy maybe? Going by vacation/break video.
Werner, Debut at age 17 (age 23)

Bundesliga - 210 appearances, 83 goals, 40 assists. Goal involvement every 1.7 games.
Champs League - 13 appearances, 7 goals, 1 assist. Goal involvement every 1.6 games.
Europa - 7 appearances, 4 goals, 2 assists. Goal involvement every 1.1 games.

230 games, 94 goals, 43 assists

Missed games due to Injury - 13 games, so he misses 1 game for every 16.6.
Longest amount of consecutive games missed - 2.

Rumored transfer fee (£51 million). Rumored to be a release clause.

Personality/professional issues?
  • Cant find any club fines.
  • Cant find any late for training situations.
  • Seems to be an under the radar type of guy.

For me its Werner, with most of my decision based on potential cost, even thou the Sancho game stats are impressive. I just don't see them as worth £50 million more. This is especially the case if this would be a transfer based on a 4th player fighting it out for three positions, however I would most likely change my mind if its a replacement for Mane or Salah (which I really don't want at all.)

The injury record for Werner impresses me, as he started as a regular at a young age, and has played 6 seasons basically unscathed.