Jadon Sancho (RW) Borussia Dortmund

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
18,112
And around we go again.

Mr Edwards. We’ve heard your arguments that my client, Mr Sancho, will play 30-40 games this season. This is acceptable to us. However, we remain concerned that the games will not be high enough profile. Please can you guarantee my Client will be starting Champion’s League games, key top six games, and televised matches?
That’s a bit of a furphy ( untruth in Aussie slang )

Not even Virgil van dykes agent could take that kind of demand to the table. No one can.
 

redfanman

TIA Regular
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
15,317
That’s a bit of a furphy ( untruth in Aussie slang )

Not even Virgil van dykes agent could take that kind of demand to the table. No one can.
I'm sure agents do look to make those kinds of demands - maybe not in a take it or leave it kind of way, but they would want to know what sort of games their client will have for a club. And, when it boils down to the most important games some players will want to be playing those - that is usually when you would expect the true 'starting eleven' to feature.
 

redbj

hurry up, July 1st, let's get the show on the road
Joined
Jun 23, 2003
Messages
18,112
I'm sure agents do look to make those kinds of demands - maybe not in a take it or leave it kind of way, but they would want to know what sort of games their client will have for a club. And, when it boils down to the most important games some players will want to be playing those - that is usually when you would expect the true 'starting eleven' to feature.

No doubt, the role a player has in a squad is paramount to them signing.

I remember mascherano saying he wasn’t keen until Rafa sat him down and told him what his vision was.

But that’s different than making a framework for game time.

I can only assume that Klopp plays a straight bat in these type of discussions, no ones getting any garuntees regarding playing time, Klopp might tell Sancho what he expects from him, but it won’t include garuntees of certain games.
 

redfanman

TIA Regular
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2008
Messages
15,317
No doubt, the role a player has in a squad is paramount to them signing.

I remember mascherano saying he wasn’t keen until Rafa sat him down and told him what his vision was.

But that’s different than making a framework for game time.

I can only assume that Klopp plays a straight bat in these type of discussions, no ones getting any garuntees regarding playing time, Klopp might tell Sancho what he expects from him, but it won’t include garuntees of certain games.
I get the feeling that Klopp does the opposite. In order to get buy in from players, i think he is brutally honest with them. There is always scope for their performances leading to them playing more often, particularly towards the end of the season when games can become more important, or as cover for injuries.

Look at Melissa Reddy's comments about Werner for example. He has to be prepared to be back up for at least a season and learn. Same pretty much applies to virtually any forward we sign including Sancho - unless we are selling one of our big three. Better for players coming in to understand that, than expect to become first choice just because we spend big on them.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,732
Klopp will be telling any player we sign the same as he told Keita, Salah, Robertson, Alisson and everyone else he signs.

It won't matter how much you cost, how much we pay you or how big or small your reputation is before signing for LFC. Every player at our club is under the same meritocracy, you earn you playing time through hard work in training, acclimatising to the squad/league/tactics and performing on the pitch.

He wants good, honest, hard working individuals who will be happy to be here and put a shift in. That is blatantly obvious to everyone who watches or is involved in the sport.

No agent or player is going to be blind sided by that. They won't even come to sit at the negotiating table unless they are willing to accept that situation.

Any top forward we bring in will either be brought in to replace Origi or be aiming to knock him down the pecking order. Origi has played more than Matip this season. As well as Origi potentially leaving it seems Lallana and Shaqiri are too. Between the three of them they've played more than Fabinho and Ox who seem to start when available. Plenty of playing time for a player good enough to give Klopp a nice selection headache up top.

If Origi performed well enough Klopp would play him more but he doesn't.

Salah needs rests (more than he is getting), Mane needs rests (more than he is getting), Firmino needs rests (Mane still seems the best quality option to cover for him if there was appropriate cover for Mane), both wide forwards are off on international requirements next season and we have so far been incredibly lucky on the injury front with the first 3 choices which may change any time.
 

Iluvatar

Allez (x6)
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
Messages
8,983
I get the feeling that Klopp does the opposite. In order to get buy in from players, i think he is brutally honest with them. There is always scope for their performances leading to them playing more often, particularly towards the end of the season when games can become more important, or as cover for injuries.

Look at Melissa Reddy's comments about Werner for example. He has to be prepared to be back up for at least a season and learn. Same pretty much applies to virtually any forward we sign including Sancho - unless we are selling one of our big three. Better for players coming in to understand that, than expect to become first choice just because we spend big on them.
Let's face it anyone who gets a day out at Blackpool Pleasure beach with Klopp is signing the next day.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,732
@nobluff - good analysis above, thank you for taking the time to put it together.
It's worth bearing in mind though that at Sanchos age Werner wasn't exactly a hot commodity. If you compare Sancho now to Sancho Werner then there is only one clear winner. I don't mind Werner IF he can play in the same way as Salah and Mane (like we know Sancho can) but if he can't he would just be an expensive upgrade on Origi, a player more comfortable in a different formation than our plan A 433 who can do a job and offer a different style in that formation but really needs us to change our formation for us to get the best out of him and him to shine. Also worth pointing out we are comparing a winger/wide forward with a striker/centre forward who sometimes plays wide. The more central player should have the better scoring record.
 

Red over the water

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 13, 2018
Messages
3,188
That’s a fair comment.

My personal view is I’d sign Sancho, even if he were £50M more than Werner. He is an elite winger/wide forward already, and presumably will continue to get better, especially under Klopp’s tutelage. He is fast, tricky, skillful, can dribble, score and weigh in with assists. We play with two wingers and I think we need a third top class option. I don’t think the money will be a problem either.

Does the player have the hunger to come here? Does Klopp want him? If yes and yes, we’re in business. Sancho over Werner for me.

Still, Werner is a good player, and if we sign him I will be happy.
 

Prolix

Long Time Nemesis™
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
3,203
[...]
At the moment we field two wide forwards in every game if we can. But we only have two senior wide forwards on the books.
[...]
Not just drops too much they literally play nothing like Salah and Mane. It would be like having Milner cover VvD. A player that brings some good qualities to the side but you really wouldn't be able to set your team up in the same way.
1. is just factually incorrect, 2. is an utterly absurd comparison.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,732
1. is just factually incorrect, 2. is an utterly absurd comparison.
How is it? What other senior wide forwards do we have in the side? Origi is a versatile, mobile striker but hes first and foremost a CF and nothing like Mane and Salah. In Klopps 433 set up Ox is a CM who, like Origi, has to play to fill in for Mane sometimes. Luckily he is a quality player so provides something there. Shaqiri is an attacking midfielder or a traditional winger/side midfielder. He isn't a forward. Minamino is a versatile player who, under other managers and tactics, has played wide. But you can say the same for Wijnaldum who Klopp doesn't play wide. So far Klopp seems to like Minamino central if used. Who are our other senior wide forwards? Not players who play a position but players who actually perform the roles and tasks Salah and Mane do.
 

Jaytinho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
237
I dont see Sancho happening, simply for the finances. The kid is brilliant but 120m for potential is not something Klopp would go for. Atleti look to be taking a spanking with the Joao Felix deal. Not saying Felix is a confirmed bust but potential wise it does not seem to be a Mbappe or Dembele type of quick progression. Sancho is highly talented, but I dont think he has Mbappe type of potential
 

Speckydodge

TIA Squad Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
2,706
I dont see Sancho happening, simply for the finances. The kid is brilliant but 120m for potential is not something Klopp would go for. Atleti look to be taking a spanking with the Joao Felix deal. Not saying Felix is a confirmed bust but potential wise it does not seem to be a Mbappe or Dembele type of quick progression. Sancho is highly talented, but I dont think he has Mbappe type of potential

Nobody has Mbappe potential though , that's why he's gonna be worth at least twice Sancho' price.
 

Jaytinho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
Messages
237
Nobody has Mbappe potential though , that's why he's gonna be worth at least twice Sancho' price.
Yeah thats true, Mbappe is this generations one in a million. But I still dont think Sancho is at the 120m mark right now
 

Sweeting

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
9,981
One thing I've just noticed with Sancho is that he is massively out performing his xG and xA.

xG: 10.48
Actual: 19

xA: 9.32
Actual: 17

Is this a sign of an exceptional player riding roughshod over historical statistical data, or the sign of weak defending/goalkeeping?

Hard to say just from the stats but he is a huge outlier.
 

KYRed18

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 16, 2018
Messages
241
One thing I've just noticed with Sancho is that he is massively out performing his xG and xA.

xG: 10.48
Actual: 19

xA: 9.32
Actual: 17

Is this a sign of an exceptional player riding roughshod over historical statistical data, or the sign of weak defending/goalkeeping?

Hard to say just from the stats but he is a huge outlier.
This. We don’t buy when those numbers look like that. We buy when those numbers are inverse....I.e. Klopp.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,732
This. We don’t buy when those numbers look like that. We buy when those numbers are inverse....I.e. Klopp.
Errr those numbers are a positive, its just understanding if it's a real, fair, positive or a false positive created by circumstances instead of by his skill. But the opposite of that would mean he was massively underperforming.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
15,945
Errr those numbers are a positive, its just understanding if it's a real, fair, positive or a false positive created by circumstances instead of by his skill. But the opposite of that would mean he was massively underperforming.
You have to be doing a lot of the right things to have high expected numbers, regardless if goals get scored. Someone whose production was far under the expected would only thought to be under performing be people who view this stuff very crudely. In otherwords, not the people associated with our club. Rather than viewing it as a negative it would be viewed as an opportunity - a player who is playing well but is likely undervalued by the market.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,732
You have to be doing a lot of the right things to have high expected numbers, regardless if goals get scored. Someone whose production was far under the expected would only thought to be under performing be people who view this stuff very crudely. In otherwords, not the people associated with our club. Rather than viewing it as a negative it would be viewed as an opportunity - a player who is playing well but is likely undervalued by the market.
Or a player who is really good at some things but not so good at others and therefore an opportunity for development by a coach as good as Klopp? So fair enough I stand corrected and it can be a good thing. On that view though if it means Sancho has above average ability to take advantage of opportunities then working with a good development coach like Klopp could lead to him improving his expected numbers. If he then keeps all or close to his current effectiveness couldn't that lead to Salah/Mane level performances?
 

Prolix

Long Time Nemesis™
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
3,203
Sancho has scored 16 goals, not 19. Minor correction.

10 goals and 10 assists in all competitions (plus games still to play) would still be quite good.
 

Sweeting

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
9,981
Sancho has scored 16 goals, not 19. Minor correction.

10 goals and 10 assists in all competitions (plus games still to play) would still be quite good.
I think that number included internationals and maybe friendlies as well - I didn't filter the results very well!
 

Prolix

Long Time Nemesis™
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
3,203
I think that number included internationals and maybe friendlies as well - I didn't filter the results very well!
Probably friendlies. I think he has 2G+3A for England this season if I remember correctly from checking.

No big deal, of course.
 

Dutch

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
2,257
We already have Salah, Mané, Shaqiri and Minamino for the wings. This guy must cost 100+ mil to play the second fiddle? I believe it when I see it.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,732
We already have Salah, Mané, Shaqiri and Minamino for the wings. This guy must cost 100+ mil to play the second fiddle? I believe it when I see it.
Not sure Klopp will play Minamino wide very often by choice, at least in 433. And I think its getting more and more obvious the club will let Shaqiri move on. So that's Salah and Mane for two roles that we play two players in every match.
 

Dutch

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
2,257
We still have Origi too and what about Jones? Perhaps Shaqiri wants to stay, he has every right but assume you are right regarding Shaq who do you want to take a seat for Sancho and remember both Salah and Mané are extremely keen to play every match, no this move will send the total wrong signal to the squad and will mess up the good harmony IMHO.

I think we should find another way to resolve the African Cup problem and not by buying a very expensive player who expects to play every week..
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,732
We still have Origi too and what about Jones? Perhaps Shaqiri wants to stay, he has every right but assume you are right regarding Shaq who do you want to take a seat for Sancho and remember both Salah and Mané are extremely keen to play every match, no this move will send the total wrong signal to the squad and will mess up the good harmony IMHO.

I think we should find another way to resolve the African Cup problem and not by buying a very expensive player who expects to play every week..
Salah and Mane cant play every match in a 60+ game season. They haven't managed it this year and certainly won't next especially with international commitments. We've been extremely lucky on what injuries they have had and when they've occurred. We wont be lucky forever. Players dont play every game. Sancho isn't there. Salah and Mane (despite having no real competition for places) aren't here. Jones will be a CM option as much as a wing option. Origi just doesn't offer what Salah and Mane do. Nobody else in our squad does. I'm not talking quality even, just playing style. We have got to where we are because our plan A is absolutely devastating and wiped the floor with most opposition. That involves two players of that mould starting wide and attacking into the box exploiting the space Firmino/Minamino/Mane create by playing as a false 9 dragging defenders out of position. Nobody would suggest getting rid of Lovren and Matip as we have world class starters in Gomez and VvD with players who can cover CB (like Hendo, Wijnaldum and Fabinho) and talented youth players. I'm not sure why our wide forward positions are acceptable to be in a similar state. Traditionally you have more rotation and substitution in attack than in central defence.
 

Dutch

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
2,257
I think it is a bad idea for reasons already stated and don't think we will bring him in but we will see.
 

Semmy

tho your dreams be tossed and blown
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2013
Messages
9,017
To put it succinctly.

If we suffered a major injury to Mane or Salah, would that put the title in jeopardy?

I wonder how that number crunching looks from an executive level when we were going into January and the margin was slimmer at the top. Would we have pulled the trigger on a bigger purchase if we were only a few points ahead of Citeh? What's the tipping point? 25M? 50M? 75M?