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John Achterberg - is he responsible for our keepers shortcomings?

Is John Achterberg causing our keepers to decline?


  • Total voters
    70
  • Poll closed .

mattyhurst

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Oct 3, 2010
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Personally we will never know but the basics are some what missing, I can spot that as an amateur goalie. Some of the stuff I see I would get ribbed for on a Saturday afternoon.
 


Artrain

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I don't think its that difficult to identify if its the coach thats the problem or not. All we need to do is compare the Karius of today to the Karius of Mainz, or the Mignolet of today to the Mignolet of Sunderland. So maybe we can ask people who've extensively seen them before if they used to make similar mistakes. Preferably supporters of the said club. Unfortunately I live neither in England nor in Germany, so know nobody who follows those clubs. Its upto you guys. :tongue:
 

Celtic Dragon

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As others have already said, unless we work at Melwood ourselves, and see his coaching on a day to day basis, we really can't give a definitive yes or no answer.

BUT. I have gone for yes in the threads poll, based on issues such as how keepers appeared before they joined us, and how they've been since. Working on 3 most recent goalkeeper signings:

Mignolet: I don't remember him being as weak on crosses at Sunderland, and he was a good shot stopper. I guess expectations at Sunderland were a lot lower so mistakes weren't highlighted as much. Whenever I saw him for Sunderland, he did seem to be able to organise his defence a bit better than he does with us.

Bogdan: I knew nothing about this guy, hadn't even heard of him until we played Bolton in the (League?) Cup. And I was impressed. He played a blinder that night. His reflexes, his reactions, his command of his area, his kicking - it was all pretty much on point and even above par for the level he was at. When we signed him, I could kind of see why we'd signed him. But since he's been here, he's turned to dog shit. He was doing ok at Wigan, until his injury. A few shaky games, but I was beginning to see again what I saw at Bolton.

Karius: As soon as I heard we were signing him, I was like a lot of other fans - "who?". Immediately went on YouTube and researched him! Some of his goalkeeping for Mainz last season looked unreal. His shot stopping, his organisation, his kicking...all pretty shit hot. You could see why, next to the world class Manuel Neur, he was voted the best 'keeper in the Bundesliga last season. And I was excited.

Come pre-season, that excitement seemed justified. OK, Fleetwood and the rest aren't exactly top class opposition but still. He looked good. Then Lovren ignored a shout and broke his hand. Thanks for that, Dejan you eejit. Took him a while to come back, and since he has he's been less than impressive. Almost like a different keeper. I've put that down to getting over his injury, and getting used to being in a new league, with new team mates. He's not used to the league yet. He's still young and he's still learning. (No, his time in the Man City youth/reserve ranks doesn't count).

But do I think it's all down to that? No. It's a big part, but there has to be some other factors - such as the coaching. And that, that lies at Achterberg's door.
 



Billy Biskix

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No one knows enough about Achterberg to definitively say it's down to him. Klopp's not an idiot. If he thought Achterberg was the problem he'd have gone by now and been replaced. Keepers like Brad Jones and Bogdan were never going to be good enough and Pepe was sadly on the decline from 2013 onwards. The Mignolet at Liverpool is exactly the same Mignolet I saw at Sunderland. He's never been good on crosses and has always preferred kicking long. He is a good shot-stopper. He just had more shots to save at Sunderland. His performances have flatlined rather than declined but I think that's more to do with issues that are tough to coach out of a player.

The common factors between Mignolet and Karius appear to be fragile confidence and dodgy decision making. Mignolet strikes me as a reserved character. It's always going to be hard for him to dominate his penalty area. I'm just not sure he's got it in him. A decent keeper but not one who's going to win you many points in a season.

I knew nothing about Karius before he came but there really is a world of difference between playing at Mainz than playing at Liverpool. It seems to have come a bit too soon for him and although initially he had an aura of self-confidence that has now gone completely and he is every bit as wobbly as Mignolet. Opposing teams (and fans) are smelling blood. These could be the growing pains of a goalie who is fundamentally solid, having trouble adapting to a new league and levels of expectation but will come through or it could be that under pressure all the flaws in his game are being exposed and he's just not up to it either. That would be more of a recruitment issue than a coaching one. Too soon to say either way for Karius.
 

Chewbazza

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My view is not that he is causing the keepers to decline, but for me the issue is that there appears to be no improvement in the areas that are weak.

There are some things that you can't teach; instinct, agility, intelligence etc. You either have them or you don't. But you can work on positioning, dealing with crosses, distribution. When you have a keeper who is weak in an area like this and two, three season later they have not improved, then you have to wonder what exactly the goalkeeping coach is doing.

On the other hand we've been pretty disastrous in the GK department for most of the last two decades (Reina + Valero aside) be it poor scouting, injuries to young prospects, weak backups, or flawed number 1s (James, Dudek, Westerweld, Reina - Valero).

The whole thing needs a rethink, not just a change in coach.
 

noremac

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The only person who can make this call is klopp.

How do we know how good he is?

Klopp surely has the resources to invest in a gk coach or retain based on what he sees.

Lets just give karius some time. He'll make more mistakes. But let him make this pos his own. Support him rather than berate him
 
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Makati Red

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The only person who can make this call is klopp.

How do we know how good he is?

Klopp surely has the resources to invest in a gk coach or retain based on what he sees.

Lets just give karius some time. He'll make more mistakes. But let him make this pos his own. Support him rather than berate him
What makes you say that he is not world class he is just not good enough

As for Achenberg he should lose his Job today and be replaced the the GK coach from Athletico or get Valero back
 



noremac

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What makes you say that he is not world class he is just not good enough

As for Achenberg he should lose his Job today and be replaced the the GK coach from Athletico or get Valero back

Such a unique position that the person itself needs to be at 1 with the keeper. No point shoving x y or z if they dont click.
 

Makati Red

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Such a unique position that the person itself needs to be at 1 with the keeper. No point shoving x y or z if they dont click.
Clearly we havent had that since Valero and Reina and when Valero left Reina went downhill pretty fast
 



FGred

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As others have already said, unless we work at Melwood ourselves, and see his coaching on a day to day basis, we really can't give a definitive yes or no answer.

BUT. I have gone for yes in the threads poll, based on issues such as how keepers appeared before they joined us, and how they've been since. Working on 3 most recent goalkeeper signings:

Mignolet: I don't remember him being as weak on crosses at Sunderland, and he was a good shot stopper. I guess expectations at Sunderland were a lot lower so mistakes weren't highlighted as much. Whenever I saw him for Sunderland, he did seem to be able to organise his defence a bit better than he does with us.

Bogdan: I knew nothing about this guy, hadn't even heard of him until we played Bolton in the (League?) Cup. And I was impressed. He played a blinder that night. His reflexes, his reactions, his command of his area, his kicking - it was all pretty much on point and even above par for the level he was at. When we signed him, I could kind of see why we'd signed him. But since he's been here, he's turned to dog shit. He was doing ok at Wigan, until his injury. A few shaky games, but I was beginning to see again what I saw at Bolton.

Karius: As soon as I heard we were signing him, I was like a lot of other fans - "who?". Immediately went on YouTube and researched him! Some of his goalkeeping for Mainz last season looked unreal. His shot stopping, his organisation, his kicking...all pretty shit hot. You could see why, next to the world class Manuel Neur, he was voted the best 'keeper in the Bundesliga last season. And I was excited.

Come pre-season, that excitement seemed justified. OK, Fleetwood and the rest aren't exactly top class opposition but still. He looked good. Then Lovren ignored a shout and broke his hand. Thanks for that, Dejan you eejit. Took him a while to come back, and since he has he's been less than impressive. Almost like a different keeper. I've put that down to getting over his injury, and getting used to being in a new league, with new team mates. He's not used to the league yet. He's still young and he's still learning. (No, his time in the Man City youth/reserve ranks doesn't count).

But do I think it's all down to that? No. It's a big part, but there has to be some other factors - such as the coaching. And that, that lies at Achterberg's door.
One of the main differences between the Bundesliege and the EPL is that the GKs do not get put under pressure constantly on set pieces as their refs would not allow this, that's why the likes of Pulis and Allardarse thrive in the PL and GKs coming from that league don't but De GEa seems to have worked out his initial problems why not Karius?
 

liver1

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I think he maybe the problem. The reason being is that we havent seen much progression in the keepers in recent times.

Whatever the ceiling is for each keeper they should each get better over time, and under Achterberg theyve either got worse or not moved forward at best.

Reina won 4 golden glove awards, then went down hill from 2011. Achterberg joined us in 2011. Maybe its hard to put a direct correlation and causation on it, but our goalkeeping has certainly been poor for the last 5 years.
 



noremac

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Q
One of the main differences between the Bundesliege and the EPL is that the GKs do not get put under pressure constantly on set pieces as their refs would not allow this, that's why the likes of Pulis and Allardarse thrive in the PL and GKs coming from that league don't but De GEa seems to have worked out his initial problems why not Karius?
I call bullshit.

Sorry, but every bundealiga game ive seen the keeper is under more pressure? The organisation itself is horrible. But the keeper doesnt do any favours.
 

hugo the horrible

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I'm not sure on this,ZB has a valid point , and although I've been critical of Achterberg in the past, due to the fact that no keeper has obviously improved under him, and they have actually slipped, but there could be other reasons for that.
I want to see some more of him with Karius before going right out on a limb.
He is young, certainly has a lot of the raw material there and if he develops under Achterberg well and good.
If, on the other hand, there is any deterioration in Karius,I'd have little trouble calling for his head!
This would have to be the last chance Achterberg should get.
 

vjcpatriot

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Of course it's hard to say for sure it is the GK coach's fault.
However look at the history of keepers with Liverpool so far.
When is the last time we had a great one?
Even if he's not to blame directly whatever Achterberg is doing, doesn't seem to be very effective.

To add another complication to the works, it's not like our defense has been inspiring. The relationship between keeper and defense is symbiotic. Each can make the other look worse than they are.

Bottom line though:

We failed to develop Mignolet into anything more than league average, and the 2nd highest rated keeper of the Bundesliga has been a flop so far. Maybe Simone and Karius are just bad, or maybe we could use some new blood at the GK coaching position.
 

Maria

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I really am not sure, who is to blame tbh. I still cannot understand why have such a big problem in this area, or are our GK scouts not good at picking a potential world class GK.
 



Makati Red

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Just look at Pepe Reina under Valero and post Valero, he also got a pick up in his form when he went to Napoli under Valero.

As pointed out by someone else on this thread we have had pretty appalling GK coaches ie Corrigan only Valero has been of the quality required. Id go for the coach at Athletico
 

Elessar

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I don't think any GK coach is perfect. They all have weaknesses and strenghts. I don't think a GK coach can learn a keeper something he himself isn't good at. Achterberg clearly isn't good at learning our keepers to deal with crosses for example. Probably because he don't know how to deal with them himself. How will he then be able to learn our keepers doing that?

I think we need more than one GK coach so we can cover everything a keeper need.
 

T.C.B

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I really have no idea. if he is that bad then how have successive managers kept him in the job? Klopp will surely know by now if he is the problem and will take action sooner rather than later.
As for Mignolet he is about as good as he will ever be I reckon.
Cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear.
Very early to make a call on Karius but surely a few months training here cannot have had such a huge negative effect on him. Are we going to blame Coaching for him putting a goal kick straight out for a corner or flapping around like a wounded Flamingo under crosses?
All that said Klopp must have some input into how the Keepers are coached too surely.
 

Dortmund fan

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I don't think any GK coach is perfect. They all have weaknesses and strenghts.
I agree.

I think we need more than one GK coach so we can cover everything a keeper need.
I understand where you come from but it's a little bit unusual to have many goalkeeper coaches in a management team, no? Now it consists of 5 coaches (Klopp, Buvac, Krawietz, Lijnders, Achterberg) and 1 of these 5 is a goalkeeper coach. If we have 2 or 3 only for goalkeeper coaching it would look disproportional.
 
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costared

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One of a coaches most important tasks is to give his players self confidence.Our keepers seem to lack this.