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John Achterberg - is he responsible for our keepers shortcomings?

Is John Achterberg causing our keepers to decline?


  • Total voters
    70
  • Poll closed .

lfc.eddie

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Yeah, but shouldn't an experienced keeper know where to stand? I mean who would tell him to stand out in the street? I find it all too weird, myself. I'm not wanting to cane the player. But I can't understand how this instruction was given? Bluetooth earpiece?
I guess it's more like instructions given during training session before the up and coming game? We were going up against West Ham, surely instructions would have been given to him about their set pieces and how Payet took his, in each position around the 18 yard box. Corners and who to watch out for in the box and so on.
 


redbj

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Yeah, but shouldn't an experienced keeper know where to stand? I mean who would tell him to stand out in the street? I find it all too weird, myself. I'm not wanting to cane the player. But I can't understand how this instruction was given? Bluetooth earpiece?
It's not all fast cars and lfctv interviews mate, apparently there's this place called Melwood.....
 

FGred

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This is pretty much the first time I think I've seen anything Andy Townsend has said used as evidence of anything other than Andy Townsend is a pillock.
Townsend is an authority on nothing he drones on about everything he's just behind the silly brothers in the worst pundits list
 

redaderry

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This here is the statement. He might not be the problem. The players might have had those problems since the beginning, but it is his job to continuously improve our keepers by training them. Even status quo is not acceptable, because you stand still and you fall behind. Whats the point of having a trainer if players are not getting trained?
absolutely, you get down down..... deeper and down
 
Last edited:

spizfromoz

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It's not all fast cars and lfctv interviews mate, apparently there's this place called Melwood.....
Heard of it, yeah. My thoughts were the moment he stood where he did, he took the fate of the goal in his own hands.
 



Claymenza

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Well, yes. And no.

the fact that karius stood where he did, means atcheburg probably should have had words.

I think it runs deeper than that now though.

I remember when reina came to the club, he used to just punch the fuck out of the ball every opportunity, to some criticism.

He later gave an interview saying that was the instruction until he got used to the league, and what players can get away with as contact on the keeper.....

Nothing to do with the free kick....but wouldn't it be nice to see evidence of planning and coaching instruction of such ilk though.....

For Antonioni goal he was caught in no mans land....perhaps he should give this sweeper keeper lark a rest until he knows the league a bit better.....there just seems to be no direction, no game plan, no long term strategy.....it's just like ' go out there and do your best son'
That's what I was alluding to in my earlier post. That was down to coaching, and comments made by Rafa Benitez who noticed that goalkeepers don't get as much protection from referees on crosses. Why risk grabbing the ball and fumbling it when you can have a solid clearance. Reina even bulked up to accommodate that physicality needed on corners.

Another piece of 'coaching' was how adept Reina was with his feet. Remember when Carra had a bust up because reina was trying to play it short. Carra being more old fashioned, didn't fancy it. Then again he had similar bust ups with technical types like arbeloa but that's another story.

Another specialty which was overstated at the time was Reina's penalty record prior to joining us when he saved 7 out of 9 in one season for villareal but he only saved 4 penalties over 8 years in the league for us.

Yet he won us two penalty shootouts in finals, the facup final against west ham and saving stevie g's cousin's penalty against cardiff. This is in addition to the chelsea semi final when he saved 2 out of 3.

He was not our best shot stopper by a long shot, and he didn't need to be with our defense. In retrospect, he was probably our best keeper in decades. He did have a lot of other attributes that justified his place in the team and it's a shame rodgers didn't see the potential in the sweeper keeper.
 

geebo

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Achterberg and Allison

The article says "Klopp" employs rugby tackle bags to prepare Allison for Palace. But then goes on to say it was Achterberg ! It feels like when its good Klopp gets the credit, when its bad Achterberg does !

Anyway, interesting article:
" John Achterberg, Liverpool’s goalkeeping coach, has used rugby tackle bags on the £65m goalkeeper during intensive training sessions at Melwood that have also involved players crowding the penalty area to test Alisson on set pieces.
“It is not rugby, it is goalkeeper training,” the Liverpool manager explained. “When Loris [Karius] came he did it and, of course, Alisson is doing it as well. It is normal goalkeeper training. It makes sense to do it because the six-yard area is not a safety box for a goalkeeper.
“It is not that the goalkeeper has to change completely for this league,” added Klopp. “We have to help him too in situations. There is not just one player responsible for something – we have to have the right formation around set pieces. It is not solely about Alisson, but the whole team.”


I think it gives an idea of how innovative Achterberg is, and how his methods and training often interact with the players training. And he doesnt train them in isolation with a different plan, but its a training plan developed in consultation with the training staff and designed to bend with player training, for example, training specific talents for specific teams.

I think Achterberg gets a lot of criticism, but I think there is another side to him we dont usually see.
 

Maria

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Achterberg and Allison

The article says "Klopp" employs rugby tackle bags to prepare Allison for Palace. But then goes on to say it was Achterberg ! It feels like when its good Klopp gets the credit, when its bad Achterberg does !

Anyway, interesting article:
" John Achterberg, Liverpool’s goalkeeping coach, has used rugby tackle bags on the £65m goalkeeper during intensive training sessions at Melwood that have also involved players crowding the penalty area to test Alisson on set pieces.
“It is not rugby, it is goalkeeper training,” the Liverpool manager explained. “When Loris [Karius] came he did it and, of course, Alisson is doing it as well. It is normal goalkeeper training. It makes sense to do it because the six-yard area is not a safety box for a goalkeeper.
“It is not that the goalkeeper has to change completely for this league,” added Klopp. “We have to help him too in situations. There is not just one player responsible for something – we have to have the right formation around set pieces. It is not solely about Alisson, but the whole team.”


I think it gives an idea of how innovative Achterberg is, and how his methods and training often interact with the players training. And he doesnt train them in isolation with a different plan, but its a training plan developed in consultation with the training staff and designed to bend with player training, for example, training specific talents for specific teams.

I think Achterberg gets a lot of criticism, but I think there is another side to him we dont usually see.
I still am baffled why our goalkeepers were were not great since Rodgers. I was beginning to think Achterberg was the Achilles heel with all our goalkeeping woes, but Klopp sings all his praises, therefore, there must be something he sees in Achterberg that we supporters don't see.

Then I remember David James.
 

T.C.B

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Do people really think Klopp would keep an incompetent coach employed at the club?
The fact is we haven't had a real quality Keeper since the days of Reina until Alisson was signed. Quality players stand out within a handful of games, Torres, Suarez, Gerrard, Hyypia, VVD, Alisson, Keita.......you can see the top level quality in what they do almost from the off. They may make mistakes, have poor games but the overall trend is upwards.
Not bigging myself up here but I said two years ago neither Mignolet nor Karius would be long term keepers at the club. Both are decent mid~level keepers IMO.
Klopp's recent interview where he said he would have replaced Karius with Alisson regardless of the CL result because he wanted a better keeper says it all.
 



ILLOK

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No, I think it was mostly that none of our keepers improved under him and several seemed to regress.
Or we signed some goalkeepers from small clubs that were never going to be good enough regardless of who was coaching them.

Now that we've signed a proper goalkeeper nobody thinks about the coaching.
 

Arminius

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No, I think it was mostly that none of our keepers improved under him and several seemed to regress.
To be fair, Allisson seemed pretty enthusiastic about Achterberg on Tuesday night, just about crushed him with that bear hug. The regress part does not seem to have happened.
 



Kopstar

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Or we signed some goalkeepers from small clubs that were never going to be good enough regardless of who was coaching them.

Now that we've signed a proper goalkeeper nobody thinks about the coaching.
Perhaps not even Achterberg?! Our goalkeeper coaching set-up has also changed but Alisson being as good as he was when we bought him doesn't itself vindicate Achterberg's coaching.
 

Flobs

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To be fair, Allisson seemed pretty enthusiastic about Achterberg on Tuesday night, just about crushed him with that bear hug. The regress part does not seem to have happened.
Nobody has said he isn't likeable or charismatic. From what Klopp says he's definitely dedicated.
For my part I think his coaching ability is still in question however if Klopp is happy there's not much more to say.
 

ILLOK

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Perhaps not even Achterberg?! Our goalkeeper coaching set-up has also changed but Alisson being as good as he was when we bought him doesn't itself vindicate Achterberg's coaching.
And given that we don't see the coaches work it's incredibly difficult to argue Achterberg isn't good enough. It's guesswork at best.

The most simple explanation for me is this - the discussion around Achterberg's impact has been over the top. Player recruitment was always the problem and always the solution. We bought some sub-standard keepers that proved to be sub-standard. We bought a keeper of requisite quality and he has proven good enough. I'm not sure Mignolet or Karius actually did regress, only that their limitations were illuminated more clearly because of the step up from Mainz and Sunderland to Liverpool. For all the eulogising over Reina's coaching they never taught him how to save some simple shots at the front post. These guys are important, but they can't turn water into wine.

Klopp's judgement is about as good as it gets when it comes to football. He's happy with Achterberg, our goalkeeper is playing well, that'll do for me. We can continue to discuss his shortcomings but the truth is nobody here really knows if he's good enough or not, but he did make a nice scapegoat for a while.
 

Kopstar

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And given that we don't see the coaches work it's incredibly difficult to argue Achterberg isn't good enough. It's guesswork at best.

The most simple explanation for me is this - the discussion around Achterberg's impact has been overblown. Player recruitment was always the problem and always the solution. We bought some sub-standard keepers that proved to be sub-standard. We bought a keeper of requisite quality and he has proven good enough. For all the eulogising over Reina's coaching they never taught him how to save some simple shots at the front post. These guys are important, but they can't turn water into wine.

Klopp's judgement is about as good as it gets when it comes to football. He's happy with Achterberg, our goalkeeper is playing well, that'll do for me. We can continue to discuss his shortcomings but the truth is nobody here really knows if he's good enough or not, but he did make a nice scapegoat for a while.
The circumstantial evidence was/is fairly compelling though unless you're saying coaching's irrelevant.
 



Flobs

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Isn't setting up a wall got something to do with coaching, especially when it's against a Messi freekick?
2 similar situations in 2 matches 1 time Messi scores and certain claimed the wall was poorly set on the other the wall was set in the same manner but as Messi didn't score nothing is said. Surely someone who claims the wall was poorly set on the 2 occasions can't then validate the coach. Or am I missing something?
 

The Elusive 19th

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Or we signed some goalkeepers from small clubs that were never going to be good enough regardless of who was coaching them.

Now that we've signed a proper goalkeeper nobody thinks about the coaching.
When we signed Mignolet, we were looking at Mignolet and Begovic. Both haven't become world class and to be frank both haven't even improved from that time when we were linked.
When we signed Karius, we were looking at Karius, Leno and one more I think. None have become world class.
Maybe there is also a problem in the keeper scouting department. And to be frank both Mignolet and Karius are not even able to do proper long goal kicks and are not able to punch balls. How the hell did our guys decide to shortlist them and even buy them.
Also Achtenburg is not able to improve Mignolet / Karius even over few years.
Change Alisson to another player, do we see the same achievement this year?
So blame lies in both places - we picked poor keepers and Ach can't turn average keepers into world class.
 

Mascot88

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When we signed Mignolet, we were looking at Mignolet and Begovic. Both haven't become world class and to be frank both haven't even improved from that time when we were linked.
When we signed Karius, we were looking at Karius, Leno and one more I think. None have become world class.
Maybe there is also a problem in the keeper scouting department. And to be frank both Mignolet and Karius are not even able to do proper long goal kicks and are not able to punch balls. How the hell did our guys decide to shortlist them and even buy them.
Also Achtenburg is not able to improve Mignolet / Karius even over few years.
Change Alisson to another player, do we see the same achievement this year?
So blame lies in both places - we picked poor keepers and Ach can't turn average keepers into world class.
There is another aspect to this, which is the same problem we’ve experienced elsewhere on the pitch - the pressure at LFC is huge and many players simply buckle under that pressure. We’ve seen outfield players struggle to cope, but the effect of this in the keeper position is much more magnified.

Mignolet was always a poor choice for LFC. A reactive shot-stopper who excels in last ditch saves, but with terrible distribution, presence and awareness. Karius however was, on paper, a good fit. He’s front foot, plays more like a sweeper, decent aerially and quick of his line. The reason he failed was because he could cope with the pressure. He wasn’t, and isn’t, a ‘shit keeper’. He just doesn’t have the mentality for LFC.

Maybe the thing with Achterburg is that he is a fine goalkeeping coach, but he isn’t a psychologist?

In my opinion the thing that most separates Alisson and Karius isn’t ability (although Alisson is obviously much better). It’s the sheer fucking swagger of the man. He looks every inch like he absolutely belongs at this level. That translates to the authority he carries on to the pitch, the confidence his team mates have in him, and the way the crowd responds to him.
 

Iluvatar

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When we signed Mignolet, we were looking at Mignolet and Begovic. Both haven't become world class and to be frank both haven't even improved from that time when we were linked.
When we signed Karius, we were looking at Karius, Leno and one more I think. None have become world class.
Maybe there is also a problem in the keeper scouting department. And to be frank both Mignolet and Karius are not even able to do proper long goal kicks and are not able to punch balls. How the hell did our guys decide to shortlist them and even buy them.
Also Achtenburg is not able to improve Mignolet / Karius even over few years.
Change Alisson to another player, do we see the same achievement this year?
So blame lies in both places - we picked poor keepers and Ach can't turn average keepers into world class.
Achtenburg plays a heavy role in the recruitment of keepers. I'm split on this discussion, but leaning more to the he is a very good coach with the right tools (i.e. Alisson).
 



Speckydodge

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When we signed Mignolet, we were looking at Mignolet and Begovic. Both haven't become world class and to be frank both haven't even improved from that time when we were linked.
When we signed Karius, we were looking at Karius, Leno and one more I think. None have become world class.
Maybe there is also a problem in the keeper scouting department. And to be frank both Mignolet and Karius are not even able to do proper long goal kicks and are not able to punch balls. How the hell did our guys decide to shortlist them and even buy them.
Also Achtenburg is not able to improve Mignolet / Karius even over few years.
Change Alisson to another player, do we see the same achievement this year?
So blame lies in both places - we picked poor keepers and Ach can't turn average keepers into world class.
There's a serious lack of top quality keepers around though, has been for a long time so finding and attracting a truly world class one was always going to prove impossible.
 

AussieLad

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When we signed Mignolet, we were looking at Mignolet and Begovic. Both haven't become world class and to be frank both haven't even improved from that time when we were linked.
When we signed Karius, we were looking at Karius, Leno and one more I think. None have become world class.
Maybe there is also a problem in the keeper scouting department. And to be frank both Mignolet and Karius are not even able to do proper long goal kicks and are not able to punch balls. How the hell did our guys decide to shortlist them and even buy them.
Also Achtenburg is not able to improve Mignolet / Karius even over few years.
Change Alisson to another player, do we see the same achievement this year?
So blame lies in both places - we picked poor keepers and Ach can't turn average keepers into world class.
That is the thing though, Achterberg personally scouts all potential goalkeepers prior to us signing them, so either his judgement on goalkeepers is wrong or his belief in his ability is vastly over inflated considering since being at the club not 1 goalkeeper has improved under his coaching.
 

Speckydodge

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That is the thing though, Achterberg personally scouts all potential goalkeepers prior to us signing them, so either his judgement on goalkeepers is wrong or his belief in his ability is vastly over inflated considering since being at the club not 1 goalkeeper has improved under his coaching.
Or keepers of the requisite talent weren't available to us until Alisson