Kai Havertz (AM) Bayer 04 Leverkusen

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,669
I think ‘kill us’ is far too strong. An injury to Bobby, Mo or Sadio would be inconvenient. It wouldn’t derail the season. We can cope.
Sadio is the one we really struggle to adequately cover for when he needs resting or playing elsewhere. We just lose a lot of our fluidity as soon as we have someone else play left forward. Unfortunately (?) Sadio is the best choice for covering for Salah at RF and Bobby at false9 too.
 

Sweeting

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
9,919
I understand people being worried about the possibility of losing Mane for a season, but the real question is who out there - that we can realistically sign - can replace Mane?

I'd argue there is not a single player on the planet who can do what he does for us (with the obvious exception of preposterously unrealistic targets).

If the argument is that one of Origi, Minamino, Keita, Jones or Elliott can't take his place in his side and do an ok job then the question is who do you want to fill in? Sorry but dropping £90m on Havertz just isn't happening in a world when we don't know our income for the next 12 months (and Havertz isn't any sort of Mane replacement anyway, totally different player).

Minamino has hardly had a game yet, he deserves a chance.
Origi is hot and cold but when he is playing well he's a high level PL player.
Keita has been used out wide a few times, especially early on in his Liverpool career.
Jones has shown significant growth this year and deserves opportunities.
Elliott has flashed ability.

Not sure there are many other players out there available for about £30m or less who would be significant or obvious improvements?

I had said Willian on a free would be a solid move but he wants a 3 year deal and he's already 32.
 

Limiescouse

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
15,920
Not sure relying on games like that once in a lifetime performance is that smart a strategy though.
We can either look at the empirical evidence of the games in which the back ups had to used, or we can speculate about what might happen in the future. Yes, the result and performance was a once in a lifetime one, but it was possible precisely because the players we have in reserve are damn fecking good.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,669
I understand people being worried about the possibility of losing Mane for a season, but the real question is who out there - that we can realistically sign - can replace Mane?

I'd argue there is not a single player on the planet who can do what he does for us (with the obvious exception of preposterously unrealistic targets).

If the argument is that one of Origi, Minamino, Keita, Jones or Elliott can't take his place in his side and do an ok job then the question is who do you want to fill in? Sorry but dropping £90m on Havertz just isn't happening in a world when we don't know our income for the next 12 months (and Havertz isn't any sort of Mane replacement anyway, totally different player).

Minamino has hardly had a game yet, he deserves a chance.
Origi is hot and cold but when he is playing well he's a high level PL player.
Keita has been used out wide a few times, especially early on in his Liverpool career.
Jones has shown significant growth this year and deserves opportunities.
Elliott has flashed ability.

Not sure there are many other players out there available for about £30m or less who would be significant or obvious improvements?

I had said Willian on a free would be a solid move but he wants a 3 year deal and he's already 32.
I think the problems are about fit. None of Keita, Jones, Ox, Origi and Minamino are really right fits wide in a 433 they are all better in 4231 or elsewhere in 433. Minamino and Mane are good options backing up Firmino. Elliott and Mane are good options backing up Salah. We have out of position players doing a job covering for Mane which (due to Mane being first choice cover for Salah and Firmino) is the position under the most pressure. If we can bring anyone in it needs to be primarily for this position, it doesn't have to be a super star it could be like a Shaqiri style or it could be a creative loan or bosman or something. But you are right it probably shouldn't be Havertz for that position. If we sign Havertz it should probably be a long term move to create an heir to Firmino but not sure it should be this summer.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,669
We can either look at the empirical evidence of the games in which the back ups had to used, or we can speculate about what might happen in the future. Yes, the result and performance was a once in a lifetime one, but it was possible precisely because the players we have in reserve are damn fecking good.
Origi and Shaqiri have had more anonymous games than that one amazing performance against Barca. Origi is OK, if we were more often set up in 4231 he would be great back up to Salah as the 1. Shaqiri too is much better set up for being in the 3 in 4231. But unfortunately for those two players we as a club are better in 433 and they are less effective in that formation.
 

Sweeting

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
9,919
We can either look at the empirical evidence of the games in which the back ups had to used, or we can speculate about what might happen in the future. Yes, the result and performance was a once in a lifetime one, but it was possible precisely because the players we have in reserve are damn fecking good.
We also beat Everton 5-2 with Origi and Shaqiri up front.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,669
How many times when we've had to use Shaqiri has it forced us into playing in 4231? Shaqiri is a good player, especially in 4231. But would we have chosen to set up in 4231 or 433 in those games if we had the choice? If we use 4231 because its the best chance of getting a win thats fine, if we are being forced into it regardless of tactical preference because its what we can do with the players available its not so great. Dont get me wrong, Liverpool in 4231 is still a world class outfit able, on its day, of beating many teams. Just Liverpool in 433 is better.
 

ILLOK

In the Danger Zone.
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
16,863
The games against Everton and Barcelona were Shaqiri and Origi playing in senior sides.

The Wolves game was a mix of rotated senior players and kids - Jones, Camacho, Hoever (16) and man child Moreno in with the likes of Sturridge, Mignolet etc, and it was against Wolves' first team at their ground. Shrewsbury was the same as Wolves but with more kids involved and multiple senior players returning from injury (no Shaq).

We also beat Burnley (A) 3-1 without any of Firmino, Mane or Salah starting IIRC.

The switch to 4231 hasn't always been to accommodate Shaqiri, Klopp has also used Keita in the wide left position in that formation too (Wolves 2-0, Palace 4-3 off the top of my head), games Shaqiri didn't play in.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,669
The games against Everton and Barcelona were Shaqiri and Origi playing in senior sides.

The Wolves game was a mix of rotated senior players and kids - Jones, Camacho, Hoever (16) and man child Moreno in with the likes of Sturridge, Mignolet etc, and it was against Wolves' first team at their ground. Shrewsbury was the same as Wolves but with more kids involved and multiple senior players returning from injury (no Shaq).

We also beat Burnley (A) 3-1 without any of Firmino, Mane or Salah starting IIRC.

The switch to 4231 hasn't always been to accommodate Shaqiri, Klopp has also used Keita in the wide left position in that formation too (Wolves 2-0, Palace 4-3 off the top of my head), games Shaqiri didn't play in.
Yet again because Keita can play in the 3 in 4231 but not wide left in 433 though. Another example of us not having enough options to field our best formation so having to switch to our second best formation, regardless of tactical preferences, because we were limited by what players we had available.
 

ILLOK

In the Danger Zone.
Joined
Feb 10, 2009
Messages
16,863
Yet again because Keita can play in the 3 in 4231 but not wide left in 433 though. Another example of us not having enough options to field our best formation so having to switch to our second best formation, regardless of tactical preferences, because we were limited by what players we had available.
We switched to 4231 because Klopp wanted to, there was no issue with personnel. Mane, Salah and Firmino played in both of those games I mentioned.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,669
We switched to 4231 because Klopp wanted to, there was no issue with personnel. Mane, Salah and Firmino played in both of those games I mentioned.
The start of last season? Think the plan was to switch to 4231 that season with the purchases of Shaqiri and Fekir planned but we ended up switching back to 433 before halfway through season and got better and better. Its been a long time since 433 wasn't the right tool for the job.
 

soberphobia

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
620
Havertz is top shelf I think he and Sancho will be the 2 most talked about players in the coming months. I think Sancho is pretty much nailed on to end up with United.

I can’t see us sanctioning a purchase for a player of his expense during the Covid window. I would cartwheel down the road if we did though.
 

spizfromoz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2010
Messages
6,348
All signs are that AFCON is going to be moved to 2022.
Funny that, we will be playing football in 2022 as well.

I think ‘kill us’ is far too strong. An injury to Bobby, Mo or Sadio would be inconvenient. It wouldn’t derail the season. We can cope.
Yep, we've relied on three forwards for most of our games and we need to add something to that mix. I mean a first teamer, not a squaddie. Teams that don't change will stand still. Another forward who can play a couple of the roles would be invaluable. Origi is good, but he doesn't fit one of the other three regulars. He's different to all. Minamino unknown yet. But I suspect he can fill in for Salah as a wide forward. But not sure if he can play Bobby or Mane.
We have a fine balance of forwards. A brilliantly balanced forward line in fact. But other managers are watching and figuring out how to disrupt it. As our players age, they are not old, they may struggle to still be who they were. It's always a competition, not a consensus.
 

Sweeting

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2008
Messages
9,919
Funny that, we will be playing football in 2022 as well.
18 months from now, which gives us lots of time to find a new striker in another transfer window. One where we aren't gambling the future of the club because people get cold feet about defending the PL with the same group of players who just won it at a canter.
 
Last edited:

auzziez

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Messages
1,499
18 months from now, which gives us lots of time to find a new striker in another transfer window. One where we aren't gambling the future of the club because people get cold feet about defending the PL with the same group of players who just won it at a canter.
Fingers crossed, if things go well in those 18 months Klopp may find the answers in Brewster. An in-house solution, typical of Klopp.
 

auzziez

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2013
Messages
1,499
Or Glatzel ;)
Maybe, with Klopp you never know. :)
But same goes for the younger players. Duncan for example, their heads turn so we can never know what will happen.

But from what I have seen and read, Brewster seems well ahead in the queue. With Jones and Elliott getting ready in the production line, the last thing I would be worried is about not signing Werner.

There is no question about Klopps commitment in promoting these young lads. If they reciprocate the same, I won't lose my sleep if we miss on an attacking player, unless he is in the same league as the likes of Mbappe, Martinez, Dybala. I don't think Werner is.

If our young lads can apply themselves and live up to their promise, we are well sorted in the attacking front.
 

Prolix

Long Time Nemesis™
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
3,201
Yet again because Keita can play in the 3 in 4231 but not wide left in 433 though.
I don't see how this can be stated as fact. IMO you're far too dogmatically insistent on replicating the precise conditions of the 'best XI' that got us to this point.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,669
I don't see how this can be stated as fact. IMO you're far too dogmatically insistent on replicating the precise conditions of the 'best XI' that got us to this point.
Ok what if I change it a little?

"Yet again in my opinion because Keita can play in the 3 in 4231 but not wide left in 433, so far that is how Klopp has used him and he hasn't really done that well as the left attacking mid in the 3 in 4231 yet so I personally don't fancy his chances of taking that up a few more attacking notches to play as an out and out left forward."
 

Prolix

Long Time Nemesis™
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2012
Messages
3,201
Ok what if I change it a little?

"Yet again in my opinion because Keita can play in the 3 in 4231 but not wide left in 433, so far that is how Klopp has used him and he hasn't really done that well as the left attacking mid in the 3 in 4231 yet so I personally don't fancy his chances of taking that up a few more attacking notches to play as an out and out left forward."
I'm genuinely curious (and I haven't been following very close attention to the forums right now, so apologies if this has been covered in some form already): if you had a choice between a player who you feel is a stylistic fit (you've made it clear you want a player more similar to Mané) but is perhaps not a top tier player vs. a highly skilled player with a different set of attributes (not necessarily Keïta), what would be your preference?
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,669
I'm genuinely curious (and I haven't been following very close attention to the forums right now, so apologies if this has been covered in some form already): if you had a choice between a player who you feel is a stylistic fit (you've made it clear you want a player more similar to Mané) but is perhaps not a top tier player vs. a highly skilled player with a different set of attributes (not necessarily Keïta), what would be your preference?
I think what we need is a left forward option more in line with what has worked for us. So both Salah and Mane were goal scoring wingers that Klopp (through our 433 with Firmino as a false 9) gave more freedom to get higher up the pitch and closer to goal. Origi is a versatile forward pushed wide so doesn't fit into that role well. Guys like Werner, to me, would also experience the same issues Origi has. Origi isn't a bad player, maybe not as good as Werner, but its more that he doesn't fit. So yeah if we could sign a player that fit better, even if not considered as good a player, it would work better. Obviously I'm not saying sign an absolute donkey but its about getting 11 players on the pitch that work well together then getting the best 11 players on the pitch that might not work well together. Havertz im not sure of, I'm not sure he is fast enough to play the role but abilities and skills he is better for the side than I think Werner would have been.
 

Zinedine Biscan

Spreading the word of St Igor
Moderator
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
24,251
I think what we need is a left forward option more in line with what has worked for us. So both Salah and Mane were goal scoring wingers that Klopp (through our 433 with Firmino as a false 9) gave more freedom to get higher up the pitch and closer to goal. Origi is a versatile forward pushed wide so doesn't fit into that role well. Guys like Werner, to me, would also experience the same issues Origi has. Origi isn't a bad player, maybe not as good as Werner, but its more that he doesn't fit. So yeah if we could sign a player that fit better, even if not considered as good a player, it would work better. Obviously I'm not saying sign an absolute donkey but its about getting 11 players on the pitch that work well together then getting the best 11 players on the pitch that might not work well together. Havertz im not sure of, I'm not sure he is fast enough to play the role but abilities and skills he is better for the side than I think Werner would have been.
If Havertz is being considered - and I'm less sure than I was before lockdown given the likely expense involved - then I think it would be with a central role in mind, whether that's playing a Firmino-esque false 9 or a more attacking midfielder. What makes this even less likely is that this is also the best role for Minamino, who I don't think has looked great for us in the wide positions so far.

A couple of interesting tidbits in today's rumours, one being renewed interest in Sancho, the other a player from Bremen called Rashica, who is apparently a fast winger/goal threat type, who might be available for £16m if Bremen go down (or £30m if they stay up).

Of course, I would also be happy to see the club look to Jones and Elliott as stand-ins for Mane and Mo.
 

Anfield rd Dreamer

Well-Known Member
Ad-free Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
12,669
If Havertz is being considered - and I'm less sure than I was before lockdown given the likely expense involved - then I think it would be with a central role in mind, whether that's playing a Firmino-esque false 9 or a more attacking midfielder. What makes this even less likely is that this is also the best role for Minamino, who I don't think has looked great for us in the wide positions so far.

A couple of interesting tidbits in today's rumours, one being renewed interest in Sancho, the other a player from Bremen called Rashica, who is apparently a fast winger/goal threat type, who might be available for £16m if Bremen go down (or £30m if they stay up).

Of course, I would also be happy to see the club look to Jones and Elliott as stand-ins for Mane and Mo.
I think that is what we will probably end up going with but I think this may be a big ask, especially Jones who isn't quite the right fit and better in the midfield. Yeah I am not expecting Havertz, Raschica could be an intriguing proposition. Especially if they go down. Think Origi will have to stay unless someone comes in.