Moses Simon (LW/RW) Gent

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geebo

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When we buy a goalie from Mainz, and after a great season he messes up in one game (with a good argument in concussion) everyone says... oh, why did we buy this nobody goalie.... and yet, when we buy Robertson from Hull, everyone says what an astute piece of business that was..... a bit contradictory.... and now- Moses?

competing with Brighton ! he cant be that good?.... well, maybe he is just a squad player. We cant buy 22 internationals. Who else is going to sit on the bench and wait for Salah to get injured? And who would you rather have? Delembe, throwing a tantrum cos he cant get a game and costing 200,000 a week? or Moses of 45,000 sitting patiently and enjoying every min and fitting with the team philosophy?
 

NoRushtoscore

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Fekir is being priced out of a move to us, and we conveniently leak that there’s a much cheaper alternative out there to re enforce we don’t spend big on every transfer-I’m with Illuvatar on this.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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When we buy a goalie from Mainz, and after a great season he messes up in one game (with a good argument in concussion) everyone says... oh, why did we buy this nobody goalie.... and yet, when we buy Robertson from Hull, everyone says what an astute piece of business that was..... a bit contradictory.... and now- Moses?

competing with Brighton ! he cant be that good?.... well, maybe he is just a squad player. We cant buy 22 internationals. Who else is going to sit on the bench and wait for Salah to get injured? And who would you rather have? Delembe, throwing a tantrum cos he cant get a game and costing 200,000 a week? or Moses of 45,000 sitting patiently and enjoying every min and fitting with the team philosophy?
When Mane left Austria we were competing with Southampton (pulling out due to BR, iirc?). We've gone for several great players with seemingly no competition, and fought for Depay with United, turning to Firmino instead when we lost out.

You can't always predict the outcome of a transfer based on who you're going up against with for their signature. Rafa wants him as well by the sound of it, incidentally.
 

Chewbazza

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Fekir is being priced out of a move to us, and we conveniently leak that there’s a much cheaper alternative out there to re enforce we don’t spend big on every transfer-I’m with Illuvatar on this.
Well apart from being two entirely diffferent kind of players that makes sense :eh?:
 

UpTheReds

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You exaggerate the proportions of someone's argument, you can make anything sound ridiculous. By that I mean, there's a big difference between signing Moses Simon and a player from Ligue 2.

Let me state my stance on this one: I am not excited by this transfer because I don't even know the guy. But if professionals who get paid to recognise talent think Simon is an up and coming talent, I am in no position to give a rational argument other than "I don't like it".

I trust in the work they do, and if Simon doesn't work out, I will then question their wisdom. But so far our transfers recently have given me faith in our ability. It wasn't like several years ago where our transfer window was effectively sign several Simons.
Professionals who get paid to recognize talent have brought Liverpool no end of dross over the years and only recently when they started insisting on quality has that changed. Like you say, this used to happen regularly. I don't want it to happen at all anymore.

I wasn't being silly with the Ligue 2 thing. Really good players have come out of there lately and you don't have to pay much. The best U18 from there (and one that's played for France at youth level) vs. a punt that reminds of the parade of terrible wide man buys of summers past seems like a decent shot to me, though obviously not as a first team player for next year.

This guy might not even be the best young winger in the Belgian league. 19 year old that scored 11 goals is going to Ajax, and the Everton loan player Onyekuru scored 9 in 19 in his age 20 year. He has more goals in the Jupiler Pro in fewer than 50 games than Simon does in more than 100.
 
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UpTheReds

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It seems like Liverpool want to cut out the middle man this time, there are quite a few players who have passed through Belgian league and took Europe by storm!
How many of them were going into their age 23 year with little in the way of standout performance in Belgium when they did it, though? If this was a case like a Youri Tielemans I could sort of understand. I wasn't Team Tielemans either but you could see the logic and he may yet develop. But Simon is several years old and has done less of note in the league.

And I'm looking at the list of top x transfer fees from the league, and I'm not seeing the storm at all, actually. Simon would likely be either the 2nd or 3rd most expensive player ever from the league. I continue to think and hope that Liverpool is smarter than this. This would be a major regression and sign of lacking commitment to building a club to compete at the highest level on all fronts.
 

Chewbazza

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How many of them were going into their age 23 year with little in the way of standout performance in Belgium when they did it, though? If this was a case like a Youri Tielemans I could sort of understand. I wasn't Team Tielemans either but you could see the logic and he may yet develop. But Simon is several years old and has done less of note in the league.

And I'm looking at the list of top x transfer fees from the league, and I'm not seeing the storm at all, actually. Simon would likely be either the 2nd or 3rd most expensive player ever from the league. I continue to think and hope that Liverpool is smarter than this. This would be a major regression and sign of lacking commitment to building a club to compete at the highest level on all fronts.
Or it could be an incredibly astute buy which provides the cover we need for Mane and Salah while simultaneously freeing up funds to be able to land other players who could make the difference when it comes to competing at the highest level.
 

geebo

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If you remember Klopp at Dormund when he bought a nobody called Lewandowski (and 3 or 4 others) , and three years later he is wanted by loads of top clubs... Klopp does have a habit in buying unknowns and turning them into stars. But Im sure he knows that there is a risk, and maybe this is just a bit of a gamble by Klopp with a bit of loose change.
 

UpTheReds

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While his goal output isn't as good, it's likely that if we are truly interested in Simon, then we're hoping he can make the same kind of progression as Mane. Goals scored aside, at the age Simon is now Mane was just finishing a season in the Austrian league and making his move to the PL... how many times since have we as fans said we should be signing the Salzburg version of Mane rather than the Southampton version - ie spotting their potential just before their big break.

That approach has risks (like Origi, if the player doesn't make the expected progress) but if you already have such strong first-team options then perhaps it's worth trying as the potential upside is high.

As for how it affects Wilson, I guess the main thing is that while he had a very good half-season in the Championship, that's what it was - a half-season in a lower league. Klopp is best placed to judge if he's ready to make the step up or needs more time in the oven as it were, so happy to trust him on that count.
Mane was better. You can't just say "goals aside" when you're talking about lower league attacking players...they should be scoring goals or what's the point of a club like Liverpool buying them for the first team? RB Salzburg bought Mane from Ligue 2 (there's that league again) based on other things, but he always was a goal scorer for them. Mane has scored 10+ goals in 6 straight domestic seasons in Europe, starting at age 20 in a comparable league to Belgium. Coming him to Simon is an insult.

Seems like cutting out the middle man would be buying a stake in a Ligue 2 club and poaching all the best talent scouts/handlers/whatever.

Klopp has always been down on Wilson for some reason. Seems like he's always undervalued the guy. So buying over him and sending him off for good wouldn't really be a surprise. Buying under him and sending him off would be.
 

ILLOK

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At this point I want to point out Simon seemingly plays on the left most of the time, whilst Wilson predominantly plays on the right.
 

UpTheReds

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If you remember Klopp at Dormund when he bought a nobody called Lewandowski (and 3 or 4 others) , and three years later he is wanted by loads of top clubs... Klopp does have a habit in buying unknowns and turning them into stars. But Im sure he knows that there is a risk, and maybe this is just a bit of a gamble by Klopp with a bit of loose change.
Klopp wasn't in charge of transfers there, and he's not at Liverpool either as far as that goes.

Lewandowski had just led his non-power team in Poland to the title for the first time in 17 years and had back to back seasons with 20 goals in all competitions with them. And he cost 4.5 million which at that time was quite a bit of money. He wasn't the unknown you think.

Simon's club just finished 4th with him scoring 5 goals. Not even close to the same, even when you account for Lewandowski being a striker which yes, I get that. Still not even close.

Best case Simon would be like Aaron Lennon. I thought we were past the point where people thought he was good.
 

UpTheReds

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Or it could be an incredibly astute buy which provides the cover we need for Mane and Salah while simultaneously freeing up funds to be able to land other players who could make the difference when it comes to competing at the highest level.
But it wouldn't be. And there's not a problem with money. Club hasn't even sold anyone yet and there are certainly players to be sold.

Having a name in a slot isn't the same as having cover.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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Mane was better. You can't just say "goals aside" when you're talking about lower league attacking players...they should be scoring goals or what's the point of a club like Liverpool buying them for the first team? RB Salzburg bought Mane from Ligue 2 (there's that league again) based on other things, but he always was a goal scorer for them. Mane has scored 10+ goals in 6 straight domestic seasons in Europe, starting at age 20 in a comparable league to Belgium. Coming him to Simon is an insult.

Seems like cutting out the middle man would be buying a stake in a Ligue 2 club and poaching all the best talent scouts/handlers/whatever.

Klopp has always been down on Wilson for some reason. Seems like he's always undervalued the guy. So buying over him and sending him off for good wouldn't really be a surprise. Buying under him and sending him off would be.
I can't really argue in favour of a player I wasn't aware existed until about three hours ago, but all I would say is surely our recruitment team has by this point earned a little trust?

Fwiw I've watched a few videos of him this morning, and while we all know they aren't always a reliable judge, he did look pretty good to me, quick, powerful for his size, has a few tricks, very direct. The sort of player you'd think would be a good backup for Mane or Salah while not breaking the bank or demanding x number of games. And seeing the goals he's scored I'm a little surprised he hasn't had more, the ones he's got have all looked pretty good (as opposed to tap-ins, deflections etc).
 

UpTheReds

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At this point I want to point out Simon seemingly plays on the left most of the time, whilst Wilson predominantly plays on the right.
Are either of them good enough to be counted on as the 3rd winger? I had always figured Wilson hung around as the 4th or even 5th option if you count overlap with Oxlade-Chamberlain, who played up front a bit last year and certainly has that ability when healthy.
 

UpTheReds

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I can't really argue in favour of a player I wasn't aware existed until about three hours ago, but all I would say is surely our recruitment team has by this point earned a little trust?

Fwiw I've watched a few videos of him this morning, and while we all know they aren't always a reliable judge, he did look pretty good to me, quick, powerful for his size, has a few tricks, very direct. The sort of player you'd think would be a good backup for Mane or Salah while not breaking the bank or demanding x number of games. And seeing the goals he's scored I'm a little surprised he hasn't had more, the ones he's got have all looked pretty good (as opposed to tap-ins, deflections etc).
Lazar Markovic looked good on Youtube too. You can make pretty much anyone look good on it. But if the club had paid attention to Markovic's actual production, they wouldn't have bought him. And that would have been a good thing. And yet that made more sense (though not at that price, certainly) than Simon would, given Markovic's age and the higher level league/club he was in.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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Lazar Markovic looked good on Youtube too. You can make pretty much anyone look good on it. But if the club had paid attention to Markovic's actual production, they wouldn't have bought him. And that would have been a good thing. And yet that made more sense (though not at that price, certainly) than Simon would, given Markovic's age and the higher level league/club he was in.
Actually, I thought Markovic looked deeply unimpressive on his YT vids, and said so at the time.
 

Sweeting

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Seen this movie before.

He's going to move to Brighton for £8m, sit on the bench until January, get a game in the League Cup, score twice - have a bunch of Liverpool fans moan that we should have signed him - then have a few substitute appearances the rest of the year before leaving for more or less than he was signed for.
 

UpTheReds

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When Mane left Austria we were competing with Southampton (pulling out due to BR, iirc?). We've gone for several great players with seemingly no competition, and fought for Depay with United, turning to Firmino instead when we lost out.

You can't always predict the outcome of a transfer based on who you're going up against with for their signature. Rafa wants him as well by the sound of it, incidentally.
Yeah I'm the one that posted the link to Newcastle. Simon would be about that level, at best. There are probably better options for them, even, but you could at least a bit see the idea.

This is pure and simple rationalization and bias. If the Mancs were in for a player like this, we would be laughing or just not even notice at all. If Everton was, well how many folks had thought of Henry Onyekuru in the last year? And he's better than Simon, and younger.

Buying the best from the RB system before they make it to top level would be a nice theory except they usually know what they have. Maybe just follow their scouts around haha. They are very good at buying teenage-ish players from lower leagues, or maybe they just do enough of buying players with talent that the law of averages works in their favor. Not sure, but it results in them getting some really good players like Mane, Keita, Upamecano, and now they're buying from lower Ligue 1 clubs as well (like with Mukiele).
 
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Anfield rd Dreamer

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Not sure what the problem is,

He's a squad player, £30m players don't like to sit on the bench.
Hate how this is the thinking with attack (where you rotate and sub the most ideally). I'd say all of Henderson, Gini, Ox, Lallana, Fabinho and Keita are all 30+ million players in today's prices (Lallana fitness permitting). They ain't all avoiding the bench. Can't we just hope/aim for same level of depth in attack as we have in CM?
 

CymruRed

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How many of them were going into their age 23 year with little in the way of standout performance in Belgium when they did it, though? If this was a case like a Youri Tielemans I could sort of understand. I wasn't Team Tielemans either but you could see the logic and he may yet develop. But Simon is several years old and has done less of note in the league.

And I'm looking at the list of top x transfer fees from the league, and I'm not seeing the storm at all, actually. Simon would likely be either the 2nd or 3rd most expensive player ever from the league. I continue to think and hope that Liverpool is smarter than this. This would be a major regression and sign of lacking commitment to building a club to compete at the highest level on all fronts.

Thing is you're looking at this deal the wrong way,it's not about what he's done,its about what Klopp can teach him to do,with the skills he already has,in a much better team.

It's not like we are going to spend £30-40mill on top players to sit on the bench,then have them kick off and disturb the team harmony,when they don't start,as far as i'm concerned,alsong as we strengthen the first team with good signings,adding a player like this every so often,happy to sit on the bench,be part of the team and get better in time,i'm all for it tbh.

LFC probably think they can make him a much better player and worth taking a punt on,with not much to lose if he doesn't kick on at £10mill.I also can't see buying him,costing Wilson or any youngster we have coming through,a place in the squad either,it's not like we are blessed with loads of winger/wide forward type speed merchants,once you go past Salah and Mane.
 

UpTheReds

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Seen this movie before.

He's going to move to Brighton for £8m, sit on the bench until January, get a game in the League Cup, score twice - have a bunch of Liverpool fans moan that we should have signed him - then have a few substitute appearances the rest of the year before leaving for more or less than he was signed for.
I hope so. :) In fact, the 2nd most expensive signing ever from Belgium was Brighton's Izquierdo. Did a bit more than this, but point remains same, I figure. Would never be good enough for Liverpool.
 

UpTheReds

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Whatever, this is pointless. This isn't going to happen, I have to believe that. Liverpool is smarter than this, I really hope.

People are trying to talk themselves into this being a good idea because Klopp, because Liverpool, because bargain, because whatever. It doesn't make sense. If the shoe was on the other foot it would be a laughing good time because then there would be no bias and it would be obvious this is way below level for a top 4 PL club.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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I'm done with this. I don't think it's going to happen anyway, and


Yeah I'm the one that posted the link to Newcastle. Simon would be about that level, at best. There are probably better options for them, even, but you could at least a bit see the idea.

This is pure and simple rationalization and bias. If the Mancs were in for a player like this, we would be laughing or just not even notice at all. If Everton was, well how many folks had thought of Henry Onyekuru in the last year? And he's better than Simon, and younger.
You keep saying players are better than this one, yet you seem to know as much about him as any of the rest of us. All most of us are saying our recent track record of signings is outstanding, and the club's recruitment team has earned some trust and patience on the back of that.

He might be bad, he might be good, or he might just be a useful bench option until we're in a position to throw some real money at that part of the team - and that's even if our interest is genuine and we do sign him, both of which at this stage aren't set in stone. I'd suggest it's worth knowing which of those outcomes is the right one before getting angry about it, as only one of those five options would mean the club made a mistake.
 
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UpTheReds

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You keep saying players are better than this one, yet you seem to know about as much him as any of the rest of us. All most of us are saying our recent track record of signings is outstanding, and the club's recruitment team has earned some trust and patience on the back of that.

He might be bad, he might be good, or he might just be a useful bench option until we're in a position to throw some real money at that part of the team - and that's even if our interest is genuine and we do sign him, both of which at this stage aren't set in stone. I'd suggest it's worth knowing which of those outcomes it is the right one before getting angry about it, as only one of those five options would mean the club made a mistake.
I look at information more objectively than most. It's my job and has been for a long time in one capacity or another. No I don't do it in sports but it's not much different. IMO it's actually miles easier in football because the data set is so small and intuitive. Most people don't do it at all.

I'm not angry about anything. I'm just giving an unvarnished, unbiased reading of the situation. If the objective is to get quality players so the team isn't hurt as much when one of the top 3 is not in the starting XI, this isn't the way to do it.

Our recent track record of signings is so good because we aren't making daft signings like this anymore, like used to happen regularly. This would be the new Mark Gonzalez, Oussama Assaidi, Albert Riera, etc. and on and on and now my head hurts just thinking about it. How many title shots were thrown away by terrible winger play? Ugh.
 

CymruRed

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This is exactly what big clubs have.
Yeah but just because they are doing that,does't mean we have to,we still aren't at the level of spending as a Man city or United,where we can throw 150mill+ at the team every season,with the hope one or 2 are good,if not then carry on with the same spending the following season.

If there's one thing to be learned from Klopp since he started here,it's not about Big price tag players,with big ego's,it's about building a team with good players with the right skill set and attitude,yes we've spent big but in the right places,it's not like we can go out and spend 50mill on every position AND the bench,Klopps still in the process of building his first team and fortunately got us to the CL final to get us extra funds to buy these players.
 

Zinedine Biscan

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I look at information more objectively than most. It's my job and has been for a long time in one capacity or another. No I don't do it in sports but it's not much different. IMO it's actually miles easier in football because the data set is so small and intuitive. Most people don't do it at all.

I'm not angry about anything. I'm just giving an unvarnished, unbiased reading of the situation. If the objective is to get quality players so the team isn't hurt as much when one of the top 3 is not in the starting XI, this isn't the way to do it.

Our recent track record of signings is so good because we aren't making daft signings like this anymore, like used to happen regularly. This would be the new Mark Gonzalez, Oussama Assaidi, Albert Riera, etc. and on and on and now my head hurts just thinking about it. How many title shots were thrown away by terrible winger play? Ugh.
I honestly believe you're doing the current setup a disservice by suggesting there's no thought or strategy to this. No, I don't know who this player is from Adam, but if he comes in I'll give him a chance before making judgements. Or the link could be made-up bollocks, either way it doesn't seem to me like there's a lot more that can be said at this point.
 
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