Moses Simon (LW/RW) Gent

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SC LFC Fan

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A few things.

1. Using FIFA as a transfer guide is madness (and I don't think that was the original intent when first mentioned)
2. Until the transfer season closes, it feels somewhat silly to me to have a strong, definitive opinion on this transfer. If this is the only winger signed after the window closes, then the people for the transfer might not feel so confident. On the flip, the people so strongly against the transfer would probably feel the same if we go on to sign a few of Bailey/Fekir/Pulisic/Malcolm/Lemar, and only sign Moses because Klopp sees something, and we develop him or loan him out to a stronger league.
 
K

Klopptinho

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A few things.

1. Using FIFA as a transfer guide is madness (and I don't think that was the original intent when first mentioned)
2. Until the transfer season closes, it feels somewhat silly to me to have a strong, definitive opinion on this transfer. If this is the only winger signed after the window closes, then the people for the transfer might not feel so confident. On the flip, the people so strongly against the transfer would probably feel the same if we go on to sign a few of Bailey/Fekir/Pulisic/Malcolm/Lemar, and only sign Moses because Klopp sees something, and we develop him or loan him out to a stronger league.

nobody is seriously using Fifa Football computer game as a transfer guide . It's called humour and contributing to what many believe is a farcical transfer rumour .
 

Mountain Man

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This is exactly what big clubs have.
So Harry Wilson is rubbish because we didn't sign him for £40m?

But never mind him, that Salah chap? Terrible player, was only in £30ms, but what about that garbage Firmino? Less than £30m.

Honestly, stop digging. If you had ever seen him play, you might have a leg to stand on. But you haven't, so you don't.

The best player, who has played for Liverpool in the last 5 years signed from the DUTCH league. Not the German, nor the Italian or even the Spanish. The DUTCH.

Go tell Luis Suarez that it's the league you sign players from that counts.
 

JustHitMyHead

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1) The links seem to indicate that we are scouting Moses Simon and not that we are buying him

2) If Klopp + team feel that they can help bring him to the next level, who are we to say we trust him in one breath and then turn around to question his transfer decisions

3) I'm pretty sure they are scouting him based on what they think they can transform him into rather than what he has accomplished so far
 

UpTheReds

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Perhaps the club should employ you then.
Is it possible, in the event that we do sign him, that you wait and see how he performs on the pitch before passing judgment or is it too much to ask?
Perhaps they should. Perhaps they would. I haven't applied and there would be the matter of compensation which sports clubs/franchises usually tend to pay below market for basically anything except playing/coaching staff, because there are no shortage of people that dream of being involved in sports and being paid to do sports things.

I will and have supported anyone that wears the shirt. Doesn't mean I'll not think there could have been someone better in it.
 

UpTheReds

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So Harry Wilson is rubbish because we didn't sign him for £40m?

But never mind him, that Salah chap? Terrible player, was only in £30ms, but what about that garbage Firmino? Less than £30m.

Honestly, stop digging. If you had ever seen him play, you might have a leg to stand on. But you haven't, so you don't.

The best player, who has played for Liverpool in the last 5 years signed from the DUTCH league. Not the German, nor the Italian or even the Spanish. The DUTCH.

Go tell Luis Suarez that it's the league you sign players from that counts.
Haha and what is Salah worth now? Should we hope that Wilson becomes a 40M+ player? Of course. But if you don't have that caliber of player already at that club, you need to find them because that's what it takes. Madrid had a 100M player on their bench and he got the goals they needed to win the Champions League final.

And as for Suarez, if Simon had scored 50 goals in a league season (he's not managed 50 goals in a career), I would be a lot more positive on this move.

But he hasn't even managed more than 10 (I think, I don't care to look it up again), so I'm not.
 

Mountain Man

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Haha and what is Salah worth now? Should we hope that Wilson becomes a 40M+ player? Of course. But if you don't have that caliber of player already at that club, you need to find them because that's what it takes. Madrid had a 100M player on their bench and he got the goals they needed to win the Champions League final.

And as for Suarez, if Simon had scored 50 goals in a league season (he's not managed 50 goals in a career), I would be a lot more positive on this move.

But he hasn't even managed more than 10 (I think, I don't care to look it up again), so I'm not.
So what you are saying is, it's the future? Not the past? So how much a player signed for doesn't actually matter? Or is it simply you no longer believe in your £40m threshold you did a few hours ago?
 

UpTheReds

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So basically we have people that say "hey the club has done well, we should give them the benefit of doubt" and honestly it's not possible to convince those people.

For everyone else, there are several issues with Simon. He's not shown the scoring ability to do what Klopp typically asks wingers to do (attack the goal, get in the box and score), he's older than most of the players that have gone on to do good things after leaving Belgium, and he's been in the Belgian league for several years and no one has moved for him, and his game doesn't seem to have changed much.

Pretty much all of the players you've heard of from Belgium that went on to be good players, were already gone well before age 23. Tielemans, Fellaini, M-Savic, Ndidi, Lukaku, Bailey, Kompany -- all in the top 12 most valuable transfers from the league, all bought aged 20 or younger. Outside that -- Courtois was 19, Benteke 21. DeBruyne 20, Mangala 20, Batshuayi 20.

The players older than 21 which went for high values are names like Izquierdo, Van Buyten, Mbokani, Jan Koller, Dennis Praet. Ugh.

You might also notice most (not all) of those players have Belgian nationality. So it kinda makes sense they would start their career with a Belgian club.

Finally, and I'm repeating myself here, Simon had a fast start to his career, and no one took the bait and he hasn't done anythign since to suggest that was wrong. Last year he was 17th (SEVENTEENTH!) among U23 players in goals+assists in a 16 team league, at least 15 of which would be relegated from the PL. And he was one of the oldest U23s in it.

Bande, who is going to Ajax for less than the price bandied for Simon, was 2nd. Awoniyi, who can't even get to Liverpool, was 4th. Onyekuru, who can't get to the other side of the park, was 9th. (side note: there are 5 Nigerians and 2 other Africans in that top 9. Wow.)

And he's a 5-6 pace guy coming off a hip injury.

My guess is someone in the club offices is laughing their asses off at the blinder they played on the Echo while they go after the real targets. I hope so, anyway. This guy isn't even close to good enough.
 

Mountain Man

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So basically we have people that say "hey the club has done well, we should give them the benefit of doubt" and honestly it's not possible to convince those people.
Well yes, because none of the rest of us have the evidence otherwise. Generally, the level of scouting knowledge of the Belgian league on here is pretty low, we'll defer to those who have actually SEEN HIM PLAY. You still haven't explained what about his play would suggest he is a bad signing.......
 

UpTheReds

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So what you are saying is, it's the future? Not the past? So how much a player signed for doesn't actually matter? Or is it simply you no longer believe in your £40m threshold you did a few hours ago?
No, you just didn't understand it in the first place.

If you don't have that caliber of player, you need to get it and pay whatever the rate is, whether it's 30, 40, 50. The people talking about "a 30M player (like Malcom or so) won't want to sit on the bench." I don't want ANY player that WANTS to sit on the bench and neither should any club. But big clubs that compete in 4 competitions need to have quality players on their bench, and usually those are expensive if you don't have them through your academy. The club has tried many times and many ways to cheap out on this and gotten burned practically every time and wound up with a thin squad. Liverpool seemingly is getting there with buying players like Oxlade-Chamberlain that might start some games and might not others. But you need a whole bench of that, not guys you hope not to have to put in.

If you do have it already, then great. Like Asensio, obviously him coming from the Real academy doesn't change that he's a good and valuable player.

Hopefully you understand now. Otherwise I'm inclined to think you're just trolling.
 

UpTheReds

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Well yes, because none of the rest of us have the evidence otherwise. Generally, the level of scouting knowledge of the Belgian league on here is pretty low, we'll defer to those who have actually SEEN HIM PLAY. You still haven't explained what about his play would suggest he is a bad signing.......
The idea that you can't know anything about a player unless you see them in person is outmoded. That's how you made mistakes in the old market, how you got players like Mark Gonzalez or Riera or Babel or oh god I'm just going to stop now. By ignoring or not having access to information. That's not an excuse anymore.
 

UpTheReds

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A few things.

1. Using FIFA as a transfer guide is madness (and I don't think that was the original intent when first mentioned)
Everyone knows Football Manager is the source. (Kidding, but the ratings are actually usually pretty decent.)
 

Mountain Man

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The idea that you can't know anything about a player unless you see them in person is outmoded. That's how you made mistakes in the old market, how you got players like Mark Gonzalez or Riera or Babel or oh god I'm just going to stop now. By ignoring or not having access to information. That's not an excuse anymore.
This isn't FIFA.....

I'm not saying person, I'm saying seen him at all. When you have watched his games,what are you seen that suggests he is a bad player?
 

jgw_geneseo

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The idea that you can't know anything about a player unless you see them in person is outmoded. That's how you made mistakes in the old market, how you got players like Mark Gonzalez or Riera or Babel or oh god I'm just going to stop now. By ignoring or not having access to information. That's not an excuse anymore.
Surely the answer is you need to look at the information available AND SEE THEM PLAY? #analytics
 

KillerBeeLFC

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So basically we have people that say "hey the club has done well, we should give them the benefit of doubt" and honestly it's not possible to convince those people.

For everyone else, there are several issues with Simon. He's not shown the scoring ability to do what Klopp typically asks wingers to do (attack the goal, get in the box and score), he's older than most of the players that have gone on to do good things after leaving Belgium, and he's been in the Belgian league for several years and no one has moved for him, and his game doesn't seem to have changed much.

Pretty much all of the players you've heard of from Belgium that went on to be good players, were already gone well before age 23. Tielemans, Fellaini, M-Savic, Ndidi, Lukaku, Bailey, Kompany -- all in the top 12 most valuable transfers from the league, all bought aged 20 or younger. Outside that -- Courtois was 19, Benteke 21. DeBruyne 20, Mangala 20, Batshuayi 20.

The players older than 21 which went for high values are names like Izquierdo, Van Buyten, Mbokani, Jan Koller, Dennis Praet. Ugh.

You might also notice most (not all) of those players have Belgian nationality. So it kinda makes sense they would start their career with a Belgian club.

Finally, and I'm repeating myself here, Simon had a fast start to his career, and no one took the bait and he hasn't done anythign since to suggest that was wrong. Last year he was 17th (SEVENTEENTH!) among U23 players in goals+assists in a 16 team league, at least 15 of which would be relegated from the PL. And he was one of the oldest U23s in it.

Bande, who is going to Ajax for less than the price bandied for Simon, was 2nd. Awoniyi, who can't even get to Liverpool, was 4th. Onyekuru, who can't get to the other side of the park, was 9th. (side note: there are 5 Nigerians and 2 other Africans in that top 9. Wow.)

And he's a 5-6 pace guy coming off a hip injury.

My guess is someone in the club offices is laughing their asses off at the blinder they played on the Echo while they go after the real targets. I hope so, anyway. This guy isn't even close to good enough.
Did this Moses guy shag your sister or something as you seem to hate him a lot ha
 

redbj

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Can’t believe upthereds has caused so much controversy with his stance.

On the face of it, it’s a very uninspired transfer target, yes yes, if it goes through he will have a blank slate, but the est anyone can come up with for the lad is that Jurgen Klopp is a top manager.

He may well be. But we just played a champions league final, if we’re going to give him ‘project’ players then we need to accept he might regress this season, and even then, our ‘project’ players should have a little less ‘project’ about them.

Landing Andy Robertson, if anything, should suggest we have MORE funds to pad out the squad, not try and strike gold twice.

To be brutally honest, I’d rather we buy another ‘project’ fullback who are traditionally a cheaper position, and push TAA on to see what he’s capable of ( as a back up, keeping his position at full back as his primary).

Again, not writing this off, but I don’t get what’s so hard to understand about up the reds point.



I still think it’s a smokescreen......maybe even the club seeing which journo is the leak?
 

jgw_geneseo

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Can’t believe upthereds has caused so much controversy with his stance.

On the face of it, it’s a very uninspired transfer target, yes yes, if it goes through he will have a blank slate, but the est anyone can come up with for the lad is that Jurgen Klopp is a top manager.

He may well be. But we just played a champions league final, if we’re going to give him ‘project’ players then we need to accept he might regress this season, and even then, our ‘project’ players should have a little less ‘project’ about them.

Landing Andy Robertson, if anything, should suggest we have MORE funds to pad out the squad, not try and strike gold twice.

To be brutally honest, I’d rather we buy another ‘project’ fullback who are traditionally a cheaper position, and push TAA on to see what he’s capable of ( as a back up, keeping his position at full back as his primary).

Again, not writing this off, but I don’t get what’s so hard to understand about up the reds point.



I still think it’s a smokescreen......maybe even the club seeing which journo is the leak?
I've no problems with writing players off who you've seen...but it's tough to do without having seen him kick the ball once, and claiming you don't need to because your spreadsheet says so. That's all. All your/his other points are good ones, and doubt people would argue with you over them.
 

Mountain Man

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Can’t believe upthereds has caused so much controversy with his stance.

On the face of it, it’s a very uninspired transfer target, yes yes, if it goes through he will have a blank slate, but the est anyone can come up with for the lad is that Jurgen Klopp is a top manager.

He may well be. But we just played a champions league final, if we’re going to give him ‘project’ players then we need to accept he might regress this season, and even then, our ‘project’ players should have a little less ‘project’ about them.

Landing Andy Robertson, if anything, should suggest we have MORE funds to pad out the squad, not try and strike gold twice.

To be brutally honest, I’d rather we buy another ‘project’ fullback who are traditionally a cheaper position, and push TAA on to see what he’s capable of ( as a back up, keeping his position at full back as his primary).

Again, not writing this off, but I don’t get what’s so hard to understand about up the reds point.



I still think it’s a smokescreen......maybe even the club seeing which journo is the leak?
He still hasn't explained why he would be a bad signing.
 

ILLOK

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He may well be. But we just played a champions league final, if we’re going to give him ‘project’ players then we need to accept he might regress this season, and even then, our ‘project’ players should have a little less ‘project’ about them.
He's not just getting project players though. Keita, Fabinho and we are clearly interested in Fekir. That's roughly 150 million worth of talent, not to mention whatever we are looking at for a goalkeeper.

With that in mind, what's the harm in taking a cheap gamble? If there's no opportunity cost (i.e. you can't afford a big name talent anyway) and there's little financial cost, to me that makes it a justifiable 'project'. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
 

UpTheReds

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He's not just getting project players though. Keita, Fabinho and we are clearly interested in Fekir. That's roughly 150 million worth of talent, not to mention whatever we are looking at for a goalkeeper.

With that in mind, what's the harm in taking a cheap gamble? If there's no opportunity cost (i.e. you can't afford a big name talent anyway) and there's little financial cost, to me that makes it a justifiable 'project'. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
This isn't a gamble, though. He's not a teenager. If he was, I could halfway see the logic. It's just buying cheap.

But it makes the Shaqiri links look more appealing, so well done there. Hopefully this keeps going until we get to the real target which is actually a quality young player.
 



UpTheReds

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I've no problems with writing players off who you've seen...but it's tough to do without having seen him kick the ball once, and claiming you don't need to because your spreadsheet says so. That's all. All your/his other points are good ones, and doubt people would argue with you over them.
People seem willing to argue with me over just about everything. :-)

I kind of see it the other way around, where you establish your list of guys to see based on the data (assuming you have good enough data for pretty much any league you'd be likely to be interested in, and given that Statsbomb Services has like 30 leagues or whatever it is now, I have to believe Liverpool has at least that if not more), adjusted for age and whatever other factors, and then you have your short list of guys to investigate.
 

ILLOK

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This isn't a gamble, though. He's not a teenager. If he was, I could halfway see the logic. It's just buying cheap.
Fair enough, I haven't seen him play so I will refrain from comment on that.

I don't really understand why 20 is a cutoff point but I'm sure there is some analytical reason behind it.
 
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I like to put a list of players on the wall and throw darts at it to pick who i want,tried with pictures but that turned into players i didn't like,stats are somewhat restricted to the team you're playing for so the skill of seeing and properly rating a player should be at least watching the fucker and seeing potential with your eyeballs,stats have a limit in the overall selecting players to scout.
 

UpTheReds

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Fair enough, I haven't seen him play so I will refrain from comment on that.

I don't really understand why 20 is a cutoff point but I'm sure there is some analytical reason behind it.
It's not a hard cutoff, but I think that's the age where guys that are going to be top players start showing their ability to do it consistently in senior level games. Not counting people like Lukaku or these two kids in Brazil that were doing it at 16 and 17. In the weight-training era, those people that can compete with grown men (that are professional footballers, not Sunday league) as children are just freakazoids in a complimentary way. :-)
 
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redbj

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He's not just getting project players though. Keita, Fabinho and we are clearly interested in Fekir. That's roughly 150 million worth of talent, not to mention whatever we are looking at for a goalkeeper.

With that in mind, what's the harm in taking a cheap gamble? If there's no opportunity cost (i.e. you can't afford a big name talent anyway) and there's little financial cost, to me that makes it a justifiable 'project'. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
never suggested we were just getting 'project' players, so thats a mute point.

regarding just adding bodies to the squad, which is what this looks like, is that id probably even sacrafice a tiny bit of quality and open the door up to the youth system.

in my mind - and i CAN see the negatives, dont get me wrong- but in my mind, we need to make access to the first team from our junor ranks as achievable as possible.

replace Salah with Wilson?...not for a second, dont buy Fekir becuase we have woodburn?, no, not at all......but when we are looking at players like Moses Simon, id happily take a hit on quality and promote a few kids...gives a massive buzz around the place and makes signing quality youngsters easier.

having said that, i probably would have made the same point regarding robertson last season if the subject arose, i do see the issue with my point.....but, in my mind, id rather give Wilson a chance, or TAA a chance further up the park, than starting to flit away 10mil here and there on 'projects' (hes 24 yeah?....so its a stretch to call him a project as such).

i just agree with the guy on here whos taking all manner of flack for simply suggesting Moses Simon isnt the answer to the question being asked.

i still think its a smokescreen......




i do give credit to your point and the one made a few weeks ago about Adama (was it?) about just bringing in single use players....i get your angle, i just dont agree this is the type of Lad who fulfills that role.

lets not forget guys, Klopps time is not infinite...yes he might get something out of this player, but what is he NOT doing, whilst hes getting an extra 10% out of Moses Simon?
 
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