MOTM vs West Brom (H)

Who's your MOTM?

  • Simon Mignolet

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Glen Johnson

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Martin Skrtel

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Mamadou Sakho

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Kolo Toure

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Aly Cissokho

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Steven Gerrard

    Votes: 4 2.8%
  • Luis Suarez

    Votes: 118 81.9%
  • Jordan Henderson

    Votes: 3 2.1%
  • Lucas Leiva

    Votes: 12 8.3%
  • Daniel Sturridge

    Votes: 1 0.7%
  • Martin Kelly (for Johnson 62')

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Joe Allen (for Gerrard 86')

    Votes: 3 2.1%
  • Luis Alberto (for Suarez 89')

    Votes: 2 1.4%

  • Total voters
    144

Dublin_Kopite

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Three things:

1. Public voting may decrease people on a wind up in these polls
2. Even if people are taking the piss 90% of members should give honest votes leading to clear and honest results.
3. I don't rate Lucas myself but the fact the 'debate' spills out into nearly every thread suggests it's not even about the player anymore. Both sides of the 'debate' will never change their views so it's a waste of time and actually brings down the tone of the forums. Best to keep the 'debate' in one thread, the Lucas one!

Suarez clear MOM IMO!
 

Johnny T.

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But DK, those labelled Lucas haters actually recognised him as being great on Saturday. Not MOTM but his best performance in ages. We all agree on that, same again for a few weeks and even I might see what the fuss is about. But let's be clear, when he is/was poor the same honesty from his fan club doesn't prevail.

Super performance Saturday Lucas. Second in my MOTM vote..........
 

Dublin_Kopite

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Johnny T. said:
But let's be clear, when he is/was poor the same honesty from his fan club doesn't prevail.
The very reason why fueling multiple 'debates' in multiple threads about Lucas is a complete waste of time.
I have given up on it a long time ago. There will never be a middle ground when at least one side refuse to go halfway.
 

Tetteh_Dalglish

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Dublin_Kopite said:
Three things:

1. Public voting may decrease people on a wind up in these polls
2. Even if people are taking the piss 90% of members should give honest votes leading to clear and honest results.
3. I don't rate Lucas myself but the fact the 'debate' spills out into nearly every thread suggests it's not even about the player anymore. Both sides of the 'debate' will never change their views so it's a waste of time and actually brings down the tone of the forums. Best to keep the 'debate' in one thread, the Lucas one!

Suarez clear MOM IMO!
Agreed.
I happen to rate Lucas very highly, though I was one of his big critics early on. I believed in Rafa and thought - "he must be seeing something I'm not seeing 'cos this guy looks crap", but since Lucas stepped up, his absences from the team have coincided with many dropped points.

Anyway - I agree with you so I'll save anything else re the Lucas debate for the Lucas thread.

As for polls, there will always be "noise" in them. Folks who are upset that there's a bit of "noise" re the "obvious" result, need to realize that the fact Luis won by such a landslide makes it clear that the vast majority believe Luis was MOTM. That's all a poll can tell you. As things stand now, we have Luis on 103, Gerrard on 3, Henderson on 3 and Lucas on 11. The only statistically significant result is Luis' being the clear MOTM, once you factor in that there's a long history behind Lucas' vote. There will be some folks who thought he deserved the MOTM award just as there may be some who thought Gerrard or Henderson deserved it. There are also those voting for Lucas to make a point because of an old argument, and then there are folks (like me) who voted for Lucas because I think he was very, very close to MOTM and without thinking much about it, I just wanted to vote for him. On hindsight I can tell you it's because I knew Luis was going to win, and I can play the mental game of "how would I have voted if Sturridge had also scored a hat trick" but the bottom line is, I saw Lucas have an immense performance and I wanted to vote for him.

Heck, the more I think about my own bias towards goal scorers and sexy forward play, the more I feel comfortable with voting for Lucas because it takes one hell of a performance in defensive midfield to get any recognition. As I said elsewhere, Makelele never ever got to keep a match ball: that honor is only reserved for hat-tricks. So I feel Lucas' performance is worthy of a vote because it was such monster performance.

i_still_miss_fowler said:
The reason it goes against the grain is simple. We come onto a forum to learn the views of others. A poll is a snapshot of those views. If we get into a situation were people portray different views to what they actually hold, what is the point of a forum?

Your not learning anything but a skewed perception of the beliefs of others.
You might come on to learn others views, some come on to discuss and argue and debate opinions. When some folks vote strangely, that's an opportunity for a discussion about their reasons. This isn't a scientific poll. It's a biased poll on a fan forum. It will never have the scientific standards required to really tell us anything beyond the general opinion for MOTM. What people choose to read into the "2nd place statistics" is a matter of opinion (to get a real idea of 2nd place, you'd have to explicitly ask all the folks who voted for Suarez, who they'd have voted for if not Suarez. For many reasons, it seems some Lucas' fans were more willing to vote for him even if they thought Suarez was MOTM than Henderson's fans were - this sort of thing is why you have to treat any information about 2nd place in a poll that doesn't explicitly ask that question as noise. All this poll can tell us is that Luis was MOTM).

Anyway, it's all just a matter for discussion. There's no need to be militant in such a context regarding how people ought to vote - this is just an anecdotal poll and is only a conversation piece. Not a scientific study. Everyone should just calm down.
 

Tetteh_Dalglish

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Dublin_Kopite said:
The very reason why fueling multiple 'debates' in multiple threads about Lucas is a complete waste of time.
I have given up on it a long time ago. There will never be a middle ground when at least one side refuse to go halfway.
lol @ at least one side.
It's funny though, we saw a similar dynamic in Rafa's last days with two militant sides going at it and no middle ground being acceptable by either.

But we shouldn't assume half-way is always appropriate. Splitting the difference doesn't always get the right answer. This is about opinions. There are those who think Lucas is simply amazing. Or at the least, a crucial cog in our machine. Some of this may be due to his ability, some may be due to the role of DM. (e.g. I think the role is crucial, and think Carrick is overrated though he plays a huge role for UTD. But I think Lucas is underrated, and plays a huge role for us). But opinions are just that. There's no sense "going halfway" if you believe a player is crap just to have peace with those who think he's good. And vice versa. Folks shouldn't expect their opponents to go half-way.

You argue for a while, and then when everyone knows the others' stance and there's no hope of convincing each other, we just agree to disagree. There may be a right answer, but sometimes we'll never agree on it. And that's okay! No need to keep bashing each other over the head and taking jibes at each other. Some folks have strong opinions and will want to repeat them - especially when they are in the minority. It's a forum. They are allowed to.

We have got to be able to respect banter, respect differing opinions, and be alright with friendly digs at each other not turning into insults or disrespect. It's a forum after all. There should be room for banter and friendly digs. There can be no room for insults and rudeness though, and I think that's what has turned this and other debates into fights requiring Mod intervention.
 

Johnny T.

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Nobody is being militant in my view on how people should vote. But let's say next Saturday Suarez is poor, and I decide, as an act of futility to vote him MOTM, regardless of performance then I am being a prat, and skewing a worthwhile debating thread in the forum. But, I might reason that I am a Suarez fan, and he offers more whilst being poor than say Hendo at his best. It's a convoluted argument, you vote for your favourites, when it's a close call. It misshapes the arguments for a particular player when the bias towards him sees him in ALL MOTM votes, even when he is poor.

It's only an online poll, with zero significance. But it is still a subject of debate, and annoyance. It is churlish to take it too seriously, and childish to relegate it to collecting favourite player Panini stickers.
 

Tetteh_Dalglish

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Johnny T. said:
Nobody is being militant in my view on how people should vote. But let's say next Saturday Suarez is poor, and I decide, as an act of futility to vote him MOTM, regardless of performance then I am being a prat, and skewing a worthwhile debating thread in the forum. But, I might reason that I am a Suarez fan, and he offers more whilst being poor than say Hendo at his best. It's a convoluted argument, you vote for your favourites, when it's a close call. It misshapes the arguments for a particular player when the bias towards him sees him in ALL MOTM votes, even when he is poor.

It's only an online poll, with zero significance. But it is still a subject of debate, and annoyance. It is churlish to take it too seriously, and childish to relegate it to collecting favourite player Panini stickers.
You're getting grumpy over this and I don't see why. Even if some folks will skew the results out of some bias, the poll is only meaningful in aggregate. The results of the poll are clear. So I'm not sure what the fuss is about.

Also, you make the assumption that the Lucas votes are based on bias. Is that a valid assumption? It could be that some folks see his contribution as absolutely crucial to our team functioning well. That's the difference of opinion. Because you disagree strongly with that opinion, you treat their votes (not just in this poll) as a sign of bias, and not a sign of their strongly held opinion that Lucas' role and performance is crucial to our team's collective performances. Is that fair?

Just as some folks' alleged bias for Lucas will result in him getting their votes even when he isn't a standout performer, others alleged bias against Lucas will result in him not getting their votes even when his performance does standout. Each side will play down their own bias. The Lucas fans will insist he did stand out when they vote for him, and his critics will stay his performance was average so they didn't vote for him. Wash rinse repeat.

Point is, if we stop taking these polls so seriously that we're quibbling with folks for their votes even when the poll's results reflect the majority opinion by a landslide, then this sort of futile argument would be avoided. You don't have to like how folks vote. They vote for their reasons. Ask those reasons and have a discussion about it. But no need to descend to name calling over the disagreement.
 

Quagmire81

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Hope in your heart said:
I voted for Suarez myself, as he's the obvious choice, but your second sentence is unnecessarily dismissive. Everyone has a right to his own opinion without having to endure that kind of jibes.
Sometimes some things are just so clear that acknowledging anything else is just sabotaging reality.

I just wonder how a player who commits a pen can be considered a more important player for a team than one who scores a hattrick. Any neutral(nonbiased) would pick the latter, agree?
 

kwala

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People kicking up a stink because 1 guy voted for Lucas, yet the fact Alberto, Allen, and Kelly got votes seems to have escaped them!

Lucas was fucking amazing on Saturday. Kelly ALberto and Allen hardly had a kick. What is the agenda here?
 

Quagmire81

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Tetteh_Dalglish said:
The pen was from Cissokho's push. Not Lucas' tackle. Go watch it again.
It shouldn't have been called anyway but it was, and I'm sure it was for the obstruction from lucas if anything.

Mind you he was having a great game, he fits much better in the 1-2 set up than the 2-1 in this formation, or maybe it's just a one game thing and back to normal in the next one. But even when our midfield is not so dominating, our striker pair can make up for it, it is our best weapon. Even when both midfield and attack are having a bad day we still don't have to lose, as we saw in the newcastle game. This is a great formation, and I hope we stick with it.
 

lfc.eddie

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kwala said:
People kicking up a stink because 1 guy voted for Lucas, yet the fact Alberto, Allen, and Kelly got votes seems to have escaped them!

Lucas was fucking amazing on Saturday. Kelly ALberto and Allen hardly had a kick. What is the agenda here?
Kelly's vote was done by the very same guy instigated this whole mess mate. Check a couple of pages back and you'll see.

I think that settles it though, Suarez is the man of the match.
 

kwala

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lfc.eddie said:
Kelly's vote was done by the very same guy instigated this whole mess mate. Check a couple of pages back and you'll see.

I think that settles it though, Suarez is the man of the match.
It was never a contest. Suarez scored the best hattrick in years. 3 TOP TOP quality goals.

Maybe the MOM poll needs amending. Perhaps if people could vote for a top 3? 5 points for first, 3 for 2nd, 1 for 3rd or something we would lose the agenda driven voting, but i guess that wouldn't be a MOM poll then!!

Lucas deserves a big mention after his display Saturday.
 

Johnny T.

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Tetteh, with respect, I am not grumpy or annoyed over this type of poll. As Eddie states this crap emanated from RedRiot, not anyone else. You misread my last post, not sure why. It's not a serious poll, but it's good for debate. Forum rules are flaunted, when people destroy debate for their own agenda.
 

Tetteh_Dalglish

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Johnny T. said:
Tetteh, with respect, I am not grumpy or annoyed over this type of poll. As Eddie states this crap emanated from RedRiot, not anyone else. You misread my last post, not sure why. It's not a serious poll, but it's good for debate. Forum rules are flaunted, when people destroy debate for their own agenda.
Fair enough. Not sure who destroyed the debate - I'm not a mod so I have no need to figure out who's to blame. Someone must have cast the first insult though, and IMO, it's insults that destroy debates. Anyone's entitled to vote however they wish and we can debate their reasons if we wish and exchange banter and that's all well and good. Some folks got fairly annoyed by the votes for Lucas, even if not yourself (apologies if I misinterpreted, not intentional), and to me that's what leads to issues.

lfc.eddie said:
Kelly's vote was done by the very same guy instigated this whole mess mate. Check a couple of pages back and you'll see.

I think that settles it though, Suarez is the man of the match.
I don't see how someone voting as they see fit is "instigating a mess". Folks chose to get their nickers all twisted up over somebody exercising the right to vote as they see fit for whatever reason. IMO, it's the folks who started calling people names (whether it's "childish" or silly or various passive aggressive accusations) that "instigated" this going from a discussion/banter into name-calling.

Anyway. Hopefully the mods handle that nonsense and we can all get back to discussing football.
 

ubermick

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Tetteh_Dalglish said:
Point is, if we stop taking these polls so seriously that we're quibbling with folks for their votes even when the poll's results reflect the majority opinion by a landslide, then this sort of futile argument would be avoided. You don't have to like how folks vote. They vote for their reasons. Ask those reasons and have a discussion about it. But no need to descend to name calling over the disagreement.
You're wrong in that.

CLEARLY, Suarez reads TIA on a regular basis, and the reason he angled for a move away in the summer is that he wasn't winning MOTM polls on a fan site. We were able to appease him temporarily, but were instructed by his agent that unless he garners over 90% in MOTM polls, he's off in January.

Ahem.

In all seriousness, the Lucas thing is tired at this point. There are a few on here who - and I have to admit it's a bit creepy - will never ever ever see a fault in the lad, and who I genuinely suspect would rummage through his bins in the hope of finding a pair of his used underpants. (I leave it to you to imagine what they'd do with said pants...) Similarly, there's a few people who have a grudge the size of a small country against the guy, which is massively unfair.

As usual, the truth is somewhere in between. He's a decent player - not a world class one - but not the bag of shite some think he is. He deserves his share of criticism when he puts in a poor shift, but likewise deserves the plaudits when he puts in a good one. It think it'd help if the "extremists" on both sides were able to discuss him objectively without letting their obsessions get in the way. If that's not an option for people, I'd strongly advise them to steer clear of the topic and discuss the myriad of other topics we have going on.
 

Lucas

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I'd like to take the time here to point out Lucas is my actual name before I'm massively misinterpreted!
 

Tetteh_Dalglish

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Lucas said:
I'd like to take the time here to point out Lucas is my actual name before I'm massively misinterpreted!
Lucky - I was about to ask that you be banned!

ubermick said:
You're wrong in that.

CLEARLY, Suarez reads TIA on a regular basis, and the reason he angled for a move away in the summer is that he wasn't winning MOTM polls on a fan site. We were able to appease him temporarily, but were instructed by his agent that unless he garners over 90% in MOTM polls, he's off in January.
CLEARLY!
 

Hope in your heart

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Quagmire81 said:
Sometimes some things are just so clear that acknowledging anything else is just sabotaging reality.

I just wonder how a player who commits a pen can be considered a more important player for a team than one who scores a hattrick. Any neutral(nonbiased) would pick the latter, agree?
Lucas was f*cking boss the other day. I for one can understand if people want to give him MoM. Obviously, Suarez would win this hands on, but still, everyone his opinion. I have no problem with someone giving it to Lucas. Giving it to Kelly or Allen is a bit more facetious shall we say... ;-)
 

Mascot88

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ubermick said:
As usual, the truth is somewhere in between. He's a decent player - not a world class one - but not the bag of shite some think he is. He deserves his share of criticism when he puts in a poor shift, but likewise deserves the plaudits when he puts in a good one.
And the dynamic of the team is a massive factor too - good performances don't happen in isolation. Even with a performances as good as Luis' yesterday, is built on a very good team platform.

What helped Lucas massively on Saturday was the switch to a 1-2 midfield, pulling Gerrard further forward. It gave Lucas passing options ahead of him - no coincidence that he played some great forward passes ahead of him - and gave him responsibility for the whole area of the pitch he was patrolling.

If there was a three vote system yesterday mine would have been 1. Suarez, 2. Lucas, 3. Henderson. He was great too. Sticking him further up the pitch, alongside Gerrard gave them both the chance to play their best game. I love seeing Gerrard up the pitch, and I refuse to accept that his legs have gone to the extent he needs to be at the back of midfield. Sticking Hendo alongside him protects him to a large degree anyway.

In short the midfield balance was about perfect.
 

LFC-Orlando

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Mascot88 said:
And the dynamic of the team is a massive factor too - good performances don't happen in isolation. Even with a performances as good as Luis' yesterday, is built on a very good team platform.

....

In short the midfield balance was about perfect.
Amen, well said. I can't even begin to imagine what this "clicking midfield/forward" line will do with our number 10 in there in between them. The "glue" that he'll bring will tear up teams' defenses so much.

But as you state, it can't happen in isolation of Stevie's/Lucas's/Jordan's play. 4-3-3 (or 4-3-1-2) here we come ...soon please.
 

ptt

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Lucas said:
I'd like to take the time here to point out Lucas is my actual name before I'm massively misinterpreted!
Only since you changed it via Deed Poll!